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Model S v. ICE and which is less environmental
- Thread starter kevincwelch
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Brass Guy
Active Member
Isn't it obvious? Tesla has to mine aluminum, lithium, who knows what all else, using fracking. Smelting plants, manufacturing of plastic parts (which are petroleum products!)... Then they have to assemble with those robots, using mega-amps more of electricity. Probably jigawatts. You have to wait for Tesla to make your car, which can only use electricity that is exclusively generated by coal, which also has to be fracked out of the ground and shipped to the spewing power plants by diesel trucks. And you'll be lucky to get 50k miles out of it before the battery won't take a charge, then the entire car has to be sent to landfill. Good for the environment? Hmph!
For an ICE car, just pick one up at the dealership, they are always plenty there. You'll always find the one you want. Just ask the salesperson, they'll tell you which one. And the gasoline is at the gas stations - it's a no-brainer!
It's all facts, I read it on the interwebs.
(Sorry, I felt like contributing but have nothing constructive.)
For an ICE car, just pick one up at the dealership, they are always plenty there. You'll always find the one you want. Just ask the salesperson, they'll tell you which one. And the gasoline is at the gas stations - it's a no-brainer!
It's all facts, I read it on the interwebs.
(Sorry, I felt like contributing but have nothing constructive.)
I'm not an environmentalist at all, not even close. But see signature.
The Model S is an awesome car. That aside, I do like the idea of being in control of the fuel for my transportation. If I don't want to pay the electric company to charge my car, I can go solar or wind or something else. Just happens to be that those would be environmentally friendly avenues... but that doesn't really factor in to my thought process on the matter much...
Wonder what you think re. using a BEV vs. doing your own ethanol (eg if you have access to farm) and driving with that. Then it's truly carbon neutral for fuel operations (ie excluding the capital expense of making the car and opex of parts oil etc).
Would love to see a credible comparison of these two.
Excluding all the energy inputs that go into making the ethanol. Ethanol is not carbon neutral in any sort of way. Depending on the study, it barely helps. And to get there still takes land and water - all to save just a bit of carbon.
One of the biggest things to watch out for in life cycle ICE vs EV comparisons are assumptions around how many carbon emissions are caused by building the batteries that go into an EV. The detailed studies on that topic are tentative and few in number and they have produced widely divergent results -- perfect for generating FUD.
A national labs report by ANL that was done by folks who feed research into the GREET calculations came down on the low side of the estimated carbon emissions in 2012 but there are life cycle studies and reports based on them that assume much higher battery carbon emissions.
Impact of Recycling on Cradle-to-Gate Energy Consumption and Greenhouse Gas Emissions of Automotive Lithium-Ion Batteries - Environmental Science & Technology (ACS Publications)
For example, this report published by the mainstream journalism consortium Climate Central in 2013 compared the "carbon debt" of manufacturing various ICE, ICE hybrid, and EV cars.
http://assets.climatecentral.org/pdfs/ClimateFriendlyCarsReport_Final.pdf
Their results were deeply skewed and rendered useless by the fact that they relied on a paper by Hawkins et al (2012) that found battery manufacturing emitted 4.3 times more carbon than the later ANL study I cited earlier. They also made several other mistakes that I wrote about at the link below which also includes a list of recent battery manufacturing life cycle papers:
Plug in Prius - Most Environmentally Friendly Vehicle in Study | Page 4 | PriusChat
A national labs report by ANL that was done by folks who feed research into the GREET calculations came down on the low side of the estimated carbon emissions in 2012 but there are life cycle studies and reports based on them that assume much higher battery carbon emissions.
Impact of Recycling on Cradle-to-Gate Energy Consumption and Greenhouse Gas Emissions of Automotive Lithium-Ion Batteries - Environmental Science & Technology (ACS Publications)
For example, this report published by the mainstream journalism consortium Climate Central in 2013 compared the "carbon debt" of manufacturing various ICE, ICE hybrid, and EV cars.
http://assets.climatecentral.org/pdfs/ClimateFriendlyCarsReport_Final.pdf
Their results were deeply skewed and rendered useless by the fact that they relied on a paper by Hawkins et al (2012) that found battery manufacturing emitted 4.3 times more carbon than the later ANL study I cited earlier. They also made several other mistakes that I wrote about at the link below which also includes a list of recent battery manufacturing life cycle papers:
Plug in Prius - Most Environmentally Friendly Vehicle in Study | Page 4 | PriusChat
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People greatly underestimate the energy requirements to grow corn. Studies have shown that corn-based plastics (PLA) use as much or more fossil fuels as creating plastic (PET) directly from oil, so plant-based plastic bottles are actually just a marketing scam. Google "gerngross corn plastic" for references.
To be honest, I have yet to see a study that favors ICE when you look at overall data. I have seen media try to take out parts of the study to make ICE look better such as count only 50k miles or etc.
But there are plenty of detailed studies available that outline current and future scenarios.
http://www.ricardo-aea.com/cms/assets/Documents-for-Insight-pages/Transport/08.-LowCVP-conference.pdf
http://www.lowcvp.org.uk/assets/reports/CONFERENCE%202013%20Final%20Report_Lifecycle%20CO2%20Assessment%20of%20Low%20Carbon%20Cars%202020-2030_PEJuly2013.pdf
But there are plenty of detailed studies available that outline current and future scenarios.
http://www.ricardo-aea.com/cms/assets/Documents-for-Insight-pages/Transport/08.-LowCVP-conference.pdf
http://www.lowcvp.org.uk/assets/reports/CONFERENCE%202013%20Final%20Report_Lifecycle%20CO2%20Assessment%20of%20Low%20Carbon%20Cars%202020-2030_PEJuly2013.pdf
When you factor in consumable parts and fluids in an ICE (ie. exhaust system, catalytic converter, belts, oil filter, air filter, transmission fluid, radiator glycol, engine oil, etc.) it starts to look qualitatively like a farce even to try to compare an ICE to an EV. Consider the production and transportation costs of those consumable components. And the combustion and mechanical efficiency alone of an ICE vs. a gas turbine or combined cycle plant puts an ICE in a deficit position. Li is extracted through solar evaporation in most cases.
I for one can't take and ICE vs. EV argument seriously unless/until someone can produce reputable data sources.
I for one can't take and ICE vs. EV argument seriously unless/until someone can produce reputable data sources.
I wouldn't generalize. Ethanol can or cannot be carbon neutral depending on the cycle of production and consumption. The "neutral" qualifier applies to a whole cycle not just a point in it.
That's my point about farm access. If you happen to have access to farm byproducts you can distill, and the farm machinery and distillation equipment all run off that same ethanol, and there are no externalized inputs in the form of oil fertilizers etc then you have a quite neutral system.
If you have more information regarding a quantified analysis of this approach of have more first hand experience would love to learn.
Agreed! Both the energy consumption (Wh/mi) and supply chain efficiency are massive. But the data and well done studies lack
I'm not sure, ACDrive, why anyone might reference what's in your post #33 above, but so that what you wrote doesn't get mis-distributed, Li is in fact way down on that abundance list. Here http://www.seafriends.org.nz/oceano/ocean23.gif is a universe abundance chart - note well it is log-10 based - showing how scarce Li is; here Google Image Result for http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Elemental_abundances.svg/1280px-Elemental_abundances.svg.png is one showing elemental abundance in the earth's crust. Again, on a log-10 scale.
So, while there is a lot of lithium, it certainly isn't on anyone's top 3....or top 10...list.
Apologies for the crappy URL links.
So, while there is a lot of lithium, it certainly isn't on anyone's top 3....or top 10...list.
Apologies for the crappy URL links.
dhrivnak
Active Member
Here is a great article on Li and how we have very little to be concerned about. EV Myths And Realities, Part 1: The Battery Crisis | Seeking Alpha It is also EASILY mined, pumped actually from shallow (130 feet) deposits in N Chile as lithium carbonate and is concentrated in the high desert with just solar evaporation.
We even found a huge deposit here in Wyoming America finds massive source of lithium in Wyoming - MINING.com
Now compare that to fracking oil or processing tar sands.
We can even get lithium while producing clean renewable energy
Simbol Materials succeeds in producing Lithium from geothermal brine | Think GeoEnergy - Geothermal Energy News
Simbol Materials succeeds in producing Lithium from geothermal brine | Think GeoEnergy - Geothermal Energy News
I think you have a location bias. There are plenty of Model S owners who live in places for which solar is not feasible. I would do it but my house's roof is shaded almost all the time by big trees. That's the norm in this city.
Back to the original topic, sort of: I do, however, live in a place with nearly 100% hydroelectric power. Hence my "handle": powered by rain. (Which is essentially solar, it just requires an evaporation/rain cycle).
dhrivnak
Active Member
I hope you voted and are part of the 40% not using solar. But you are correct as there are many ways to get clean power besides solar and I fully agree it is not for everyone or every situation.
Driving on Sunshine
