Convincing others to switch to Tesla or EV?

[EVer Hopeful]

Also what does "Let the market dictate consumer demand" really mean?

If you sell a product, and I sell a similar product, but I'm established so could do something like spend loads on advertising, or maybe buy your company so that only my product is now for sale, then I have affected the market. In fact I have driven it

"Market forces dictate prices" is a nice mantra, but not one I believe in. How many people do you know who get sh1t service from a company, complain about it and yet still use their product, when there are viable alternatives available. It's wonderful to live in a market driven economy as it means the customer has the power, yet this requires discipline and sacrifice and tbh I think people are too lazy to participate and exercise their power

 

[DrGriz]

Exactly. New technologies are always expensive initially then get cheaper as adoption increases thanks to economy of scale. Without upfront investment we’d never be able to move on from older technologies. Capital intensive technologies like electric vehicle need that boost from the government.

The Environmental and Energy Study Institute found that the US government alone spends $20 billion every year on direct fossil fuel subsidies. Of that figure, around $16 billion goes towards oil and gas...

Market forces.

It is time to stop subsidizing 100-year-old industries as well. That might help the transition to sustainable technologies. Then we can talk about market forces.

Fact Sheet | Fossil Fuel Subsidies: A Closer Look at Tax Breaks and Societal Costs (2019) | White Papers | EESI

www.eesi.org

 

[ThePirate]

There is a lot of merit here, but what is being overlooked is why? The ICE car bans are being offered as a way to address global warming. At some point we have to stop the ignorance and do something.

NO, not "at some point". Now. Immediately. Forty years ago (yes, the science was there more than forty years ago) we could have discussed when we would transition away from fossil fuels, whether we would need rooftop solar as well as utility solar, how to upgrade the grid in the right order, etc. etc. etc. We're out of time. And saying, "I'll wait for our politicians to fix this" guarantees every possible climate catastrophe. The house is on fire folks (how many people died in your state last year from climate disasters?), put out that fire (our carbon pollution) now, not in 15 years (as oil companies want), not in 4 years (when our current politicians are out of office), but this moment. Do whatever you can afford, and do it now.

Every new ICE car you put on the road today will continue to spew carbon for decades to come, making it that much harder to fix the climate crisis. It is absolutely urgent that enough chargers are installed and cheap EVs are widely available so no one "needs" new ICE cars any more.

 

[E90alex]

NO, not "at some point". Now. Immediately. Forty years ago (yes, the science was there more than forty years ago) we could have discussed when we would transition away from fossil fuels, whether we would need rooftop solar as well as utility solar, how to upgrade the grid in the right order, etc. etc. etc. We're out of time. And saying, "I'll wait for our politicians to fix this" guarantees every possible climate catastrophe. The house is on fire folks (how many people died in your state last year from climate disasters?), put out that fire (our carbon pollution) now, not in 15 years (as oil companies want), not in 4 years (when our current politicians are out of office), but this moment. Do whatever you can afford, and do it now.

Every new ICE car you put on the road today will continue to spew carbon for decades to come, making it that much harder to fix the climate crisis. It is absolutely urgent that enough chargers are installed and cheap EVs are widely available so no one "needs" new ICE cars any more.

Doesn’t change the fact that the world cannot change overnight. There’s plenty of people still where EVs cannot conveniently fit their lifestyle or habits and plenty more that want to go EV but cannot afford it. Even if the consumer base was 100% ready there aren’t enough battery resources and the grid/infrastructure is not ready to handle all those EVs yet. That’s why the 100% EV goals are set decades ahead so the world can gradually gear up to meet and support those goals.

 

[DrGriz]

Doesn’t change the fact that the world cannot change overnight. There’s plenty of people still where EVs cannot conveniently fit their lifestyle or habits and plenty more that want to go EV but cannot afford it. Even if the consumer base was 100% ready there aren’t enough battery resources and the grid/infrastructure is not ready to handle all those EVs yet. That’s why the 100% EV goals are set decades ahead so the world can gradually gear up to meet and support those goals.

You are correct, that it takes decades. Which is why the horse is already out of the barn,

 

[Earl]

Forty years ago (yes, the science was there more than forty years ago) we could have discussed when we would transition away from fossil fuels, whether we would need rooftop solar as well as utility solar, how to upgrade the grid in the right order

Realistically, alternatives to fossil fuels were a big stretch 40 years ago. Technologies, starting with toxic Pb-A (Lead Acid) and Nickle Cadmium batteries, coupled with expensive and low-performance solar cells made EVs very limited. Transition at that time would have collapsed the economy of the world. Sure we could have moved faster after the EV1 showed viability 30 years ago but 40 is a bit of a stretch.

Every new ICE car you put on the road today will continue to spew carbon for decades to come, making it that much harder to fix the climate crisis. It is absolutely urgent that enough chargers are installed and cheap EVs are widely available so no one "needs" new ICE cars any more.

Unfortunately, the human race is currently not prepared to produce enough EVs or make them cheaply. Tesla is on about as fast a curve as realistically possible to get to that point. Sure, the process would accelerate a bit if anyone else was seriously trying but complaining won't help either. Tesla clobbering the ICE industry as no industry has ever been hit before is helping but the other 99.999% of the world is doing essentially nothing. If you know other ways to enable or motivate them, I'm all ears.
I do, however, believe that the misguided efforts to ham-fistedly outlaw ICE in the developed world in a decade are a horrible idea. It's too late to do any good and will only cause pushback from those in power, delaying things further. We can be there in less time if we continue to let Tesla lead the way, forcing the others to follow or die as the people vote with their purses.

 

[zoomer0056]

It's too late to do any good

So how long do we have before the end?

 

[ThePirate]

Realistically, alternatives to fossil fuels were a big stretch 40 years ago. Technologies, starting with toxic Pb-A (Lead Acid) and Nickle Cadmium batteries, coupled with expensive and low-performance solar cells made EVs very limited. Transition at that time would have collapsed the economy of the world. Sure we could have moved faster after the EV1 showed viability 30 years ago but 40 is a bit of a stretch.


Unfortunately, the human race is currently not prepared to produce enough EVs or make them cheaply. Tesla is on about as fast a curve as realistically possible to get to that point. Sure, the process would accelerate a bit if anyone else was seriously trying but complaining won't help either. Tesla clobbering the ICE industry as no industry has ever been hit before is helping but the other 99.999% of the world is doing essentially nothing. If you know other ways to enable or motivate them, I'm all ears.
I do, however, believe that the misguided efforts to ham-fistedly outlaw ICE in the developed world in a decade are a horrible idea. It's too late to do any good and will only cause pushback from those in power, delaying things further. We can be there in less time if we continue to let Tesla lead the way, forcing the others to follow or die as the people vote with their purses.

@ Earl: Thank you for your comments but :

"but the other 99.999% of the world is doing essentially nothing."

EVs by country: Electric car use by country - Wikipedia
2021:
China: 7.8 M
Europe: 5.7M
USA: 3.3M

So, we're at the back of the pack. BTW I have seen figures that China continued accelerating EV adoption up to today despite removal of incentives. (USA definitely increasing but still at the back of the pack.)

To put this in perspective: Norway, 28% of all cars in use are EVs in 2021. Why are we a bunch of losers compared to Norway?

To put this in perspective, compared to what we should be doing: If we got into a war with any significant country, what would be the yr-on-yr increase in bomb production? This is the kind of thinking we *should* be applying to climate change, to EV (and chargers) and Green energy production, because saving our climate will be ***worth it***.

I find your assertion that it is "misguided to outlaw ICE cars" may be wise, If I were emperor I would surely outlaw new ones tomorrow, but without an emperor that may have problems, backlashes, etc. etc.

I find your openness to other ways of convincing people is very constructive.

I think the idea of making this positive, and trying to get people to look forward to the economic growth of a "green jobs revolution" is sensible from a political point of view. (Even conservatives love that it gets a factory in their state.) However, I think what we really need to do at this point is "all of the above": let's continue to incentivize any efficient non-fossil anything everywhere, let's start taxing carbon (killing new ices by making them expensive), taxing ice companies, taxing fossil fuels, and using tax revenues for green energy (and for efficiency, e.g. insulation, which is always the best thing to do in any energy analysis). Let's help people below median income buy new stuff that is efficient.

There is so much we COULD do that we're not doing. To all the nay-sayers on this thread I will always come back with, "Why not? Isn't the earth worth it?"

-TPC

 

[E90alex]

There is so much we COULD do that we're not doing.

We’re at the mercy of government regulations that are “guided” by lots of money from the oil industry. Not to mention half the country doesn’t believe global warming is real and believes it’s their god given right to burn fuel and they will personally burn every last drop before even considering a hippie tree hugging EV. There’s not much we as private citizens can do other than vote and do our own little part, but a lot of these major policy changes required are dictated and voted on behind closed doors by politicians and we don’t really have a say in it.

Norway had MASSIVE government incentives and support for EVs that started DECADES ago in which it simply became cheaper to go EV than ICE after taxes etc were considered. Most people buy what makes sense for their bank account and needs, and global climate implications good or bad are secondary at best.

The US is just starting on that journey now and most EVs are still more expensive than equivalent ICE even considering the new tax credit so there’s still a big hurdle for many buyers, even without considering the whole infrastructure aspect. It will probably take another 20-30 years from now before we reach Norway’s level of adoption and infrastructure nationwide, but some states will achieve that sooner thanks to their government being more pro EV and sustainability (ie California). Hopefully the next several years bring massive onslaught of EVs as the legacies really ramp up production and increase EV model offerings.

 

[EVer Hopeful]

The really sad part is that the switch to EVs will happen (no that's not the sad part), just as the switch from horses to ICEs happened, but the more we as a country resist, the more we will lag behind the countries who don't resist. They will drive the industry and we will follow or perhaps even stop altogether.

Imagine if we had refused to adopt personal computers or cell phone technology.

Then the really really sad part is that you can guarantee the people who stood in the way of the transition will moan the loudest at the consequences and blame everyone else but themselves

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

"Why not? Isn't the earth worth it?"

Because it's the party in power that implements policy.

In the USA, bonus is much more accepted than malus.

 

[zoomer0056]

bonus is much more accepted than malus

What do you mean?

 

[Zythryn]

I have found the best way to convince someone is to let them drive one.
That and sharing my own experiences driving EVs over the last 12 years.

For a few, it just isn’t a good fit. For many, it is but they don’t know it until given a reason to seriously consider it.
And then you have some people who just can’t stand the idea of change.

 

[Earl]

So how long do we have before the end?

Sorry I was unclear. What I meant was that Electrification of our transportation is happening already -- thanks 98% to Tesla (its founders, shareholders, supporters, employees, customers, etc).
The 1990 California ZEV mandate was a total disaster. It started out down a good path but was gamed by all cognizant political (Dem, Rep, Green, etc) and government organizations to their personal benefit. The biggest offenders, of course, were CARB, AQMD, and those in the pockets pocket of the ICE and fossil fuel industries.
If Tesla had not come along with private well-intentioned money, initially from Eberhard and Tarpenning, then later from Musk, we (the US and the rest of the world) would still not be on a road to sustainability.

 

[zoomer0056]

If Tesla had not come along with private well-intentioned money, initially from Eberhard and Tarpenning, then later from Musk, we (the US and the rest of the world) would still not be on a road to sustainability.

Well said, I agree. I bought a Feb 2022 MSLR because it was the car that checked the most boxes for me. I was not looking for an EV. I could've purchased a C8 with change left over. I still am super happy the MSLR was the best car for me and is also an EV. Its part of the solution. However, I can see people for many reasons not choosing an EV for their next car.

 

[Darmie]

So how long do we have before the end?

Must be close. That's why there are so many homes still being purchased in Martha's vineyard.

https://www.zillow.com/vineyard-haven-ma/sold/

We are to listen to the preacher, not observe what he is doing.