Alternative Energy Investor Discussions

[AudubonB]

Tower:

I had on hand (that's how it goes where I live!) the parts for a 65-foot tall self-supporting tower (means no guy wires). I thought a wind turbine might be appropriate, but as much as I tried to convince myself otherwise, we simply haven't enough consistent wind to have made that a worthwhile project. So....I erected the tower and used its unparalleled solar exposure to put atop it a tracking rack and the four panels I described above.

Now, as I say, I am thereupon real-estate-constrained, so 4 panels @ 345W vs the existing 4 @ 130W.....sure, I'll take that increase! But I still need to know how to get my hands on some SPWR panels.

 

[sleepyhead]

Also, you don't have to pay cash for a solar system. I got a 3% loan from a credit union with $0 down.

So there is absolutely no benefit to leasing, when you can get your own loan without $10k cash out of pocket.

 

[DaveT]

Also, you don't have to pay cash for a solar system. I got a 3% loan from a credit union with $0 down.

That's a sweet deal. Do most credit unions offer loans on solar systems?

 

[772]

There's also HELOC, and I believe we could deduct the interest paid on that in our taxes, too.

That said, I think there will still be a lot of demand for leased panels. The costs actually should go down as SCTY lowers their own financing costs through securitization of the lease contracts.

 

[sleepyhead]

After Rebates my 8kw system will make me a return of around 15-18% a year. I'm realizing that it's actually allowed me to cut my use of propane for heat in the winter by using electric space heaters and not heat all 3000sq/ft to make one room warm that I may be using. I do also agree that buying is much better than leasing, and I put off my installation for a year because I wanted to own my system. However, a significant percentage of the population doesn't have the discipline to actually save money for anything, so a lease is better than nothing. I have YGE panels with Enphase microinverters and my panels do put out mid 300 watts per, so i'm not sure I agree with Sleepy that all Chinese panels are sub 300w. I have a friend who owns a local Solar company so I put my trust in him on which products he put on my roof.

I meant to say that the vast majority of Chinese panels are under 280W (maybe even all of them are, I don't remember off the top of my head).

Your YGE panels are definitely not mid 300W. SPWR X-series, which are most efficient panels on planet barely get mid 300W.

I think you are confusing terminology here.

But I agree with you that buying is significantly better than leasing.

And I repeat one more time, there are plenty of loans from Credit Unions, HELOC loans, and other financing options available. You do not have to pay cash for panels.

Heck, you can even take out a 401k loan and pay yourself 5.75% interest to buy a solar system.

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That's a sweet deal. Do most credit unions offer loans on solar systems?

I am not sure, but this CU was working directly with SPWR and had some kind of agreement.

The downside is that it was for only 5 years, but I am okay with that. It is like taking out a car loan and then enjoying free electricity for the next 20+ years; kind of like driving a paid-off car, but without the maintenance.

- - - Updated - - -

There's also HELOC, and I believe we could deduct the interest paid on that in our taxes, too.

That said, I think there will still be a lot of demand for leased panels. The costs actually should go down as SCTY lowers their own financing costs through securitization of the lease contracts.

Yes, there will be demand and a lot of people will be doing leases. But there is also a lot of customers that don't understand they could be getting a better deal buying.

For many a lease might make more sense, but I suspect that a lot of people got bad deals signing a lease.

 

[sub]

yes it's possible (and probable) that I am confusing things, I know that you know Solar much more than I do. I also know that SPWR makes the highest efficiency panels, not arguing that point.

When I pull up my Enphase Microinverters online it shows me that a majority of my panels are producing 340+ during mid day, I'll take a look tomorrow if I have time to move my equipment around, hasn't been logging data since I installed a new TV and using same power outlet.

Thanks for all the research on the Solars, I've benefited personally with CSIQ.

 

[justdoit]

While I generally agree that purchasing the panels if you can afford it provides the most bang for your buck, the reality is that most people out there don't have much cash laying around. Or they have it tied up in other assets/investments (ie., house, 401k, etc).

For the people who don't have cash to purchase a system, they'll need to find some way to finance a solar system if they want to go solar. Some cities/counties have attractive options where you can add the cost of your solar system to your property tax bill and pay if off over 10-20 years, and that's transferrable as well if you sell your house. The new owner just pays a higher property tax bill with an additional line item for solar.

If you don't have an attractive local financing alternative, then SolarCity will compete decently well with other financing/leasing options for solar. I called up SolarCity for a quote and they wouldn't give me a quote saying that my house is too small (under 2000 sqft) and I don't use enough electricity (my current energy bill is quite small). However, I have seen large houses with large energy needs get really attractive leasing/PPA deals from SolarCity. It's much better than a lot of the other financed options out there. And some of the other options are quite disorganized and inefficient. But SolarCity is super efficient and will usually get the job done with little hassle.

If you don't use a lot of energy or have a small house, then SolarCity's lease/PPA probably won't make a ton of sense. But that will change over time as they drive down costs. For larger houses with large energy needs and for people who can't or don't want to pay cash, it makes sense now.

Probably the biggest value-add to the customer for SolarCity is their financing/PPA options, then their ease-of-use no-hassle install process, and finally cost which they are working aggressively to lower.

Really? I spoke to them on the phone today and they're coming to give me a quote/consultation tomorrow. My house is smaller than 2k sq/ft and my utility bill is also small at the moment (both things I mentioned to them).

 

[DaveT]

Really? I spoke to them on the phone today and they're coming to give me a quote/consultation tomorrow. My house is smaller than 2k sq/ft and my utility bill is also small at the moment (both things I mentioned to them).

Yeah, it was about a year ago and I haven't tried since. Let us know how the quote goes and what they offer you.

 

[FANGO]

So, I was talking to a girl at a party this past weekend, who was really into crowdfunding and startups and alternative energy and whatnot. She mentioned Mosaic solar, which I hadn't heard of, and thought I misheard, so I wrote it off. Then someone else mentioned it on another forum today, and I thought I'd check it out.

Has anyone heard of it? Seems to be "crowd funding" (though apparently there's an SEC designation for it in the recent business startup act), where you can put up any amount (up to $2,500 in CA, unless you qualify as an investor through various qualifications on income and net worth, there is a category for 70k income + 70k non-home net worth and 250k net worth with no income restriction, etc), and you will get an "expected return" of between 4.25% and 7% from the projects I've seen, with several-year terms. Basically you invest in a solar project somewhere (like if a farm wants to go solar or something), and they pay you money back for it through a power purchasing agreement or something of the sort - essentially you are becoming the SolarCity in this equation.

Generally I'm pretty sure that I'm still looking for speculation, e.g. making over 7% per year, and of course there's always risk even with these. But I am somewhat intrigued and am curious what everyone else thinks about it, or if anyone has heard anything about it?

Here's a link: The Leading Solar Energy Investment Platform | Mosaic

 

[DaveT]

So, I was talking to a girl at a party this past weekend, who was really into crowdfunding and startups and alternative energy and whatnot. She mentioned Mosaic solar, which I hadn't heard of, and thought I misheard, so I wrote it off. Then someone else mentioned it on another forum today, and I thought I'd check it out.

Has anyone heard of it? Seems to be "crowd funding" (though apparently there's an SEC designation for it in the recent business startup act), where you can put up any amount (up to $2,500 in CA, unless you qualify as an investor through various qualifications on income and net worth, there is a category for 70k income + 70k non-home net worth and 250k net worth with no income restriction, etc), and you will get an "expected return" of between 4.25% and 7% from the projects I've seen, with several-year terms. Basically you invest in a solar project somewhere (like if a farm wants to go solar or something), and they pay you money back for it through a power purchasing agreement or something of the sort - essentially you are becoming the SolarCity in this equation.

Generally I'm pretty sure that I'm still looking for speculation, e.g. making over 7% per year, and of course there's always risk even with these. But I am somewhat intrigued and am curious what everyone else thinks about it, or if anyone has heard anything about it?

Here's a link: The Leading Solar Energy Investment Platform | Mosaic

That's interesting. I know SolarCity acquired Common Assets which was a crowdfunding startup and they plan to raise a lot of money through it.
SolarCity Plans to Offer Asset-Backed Debt to Retail Investors - Bloomberg

 

[772]

SCTY having a great day so far... wish I had put more of my profits from TSLA into this yesterday. It feels like the better play heading into the gigafactory due to less dilution risk in the short term.

 

[sleepyhead]

So, I was talking to a girl at a party this past weekend, who was really into crowdfunding and startups and alternative energy and whatnot. She mentioned Mosaic solar, which I hadn't heard of, and thought I misheard, so I wrote it off. Then someone else mentioned it on another forum today, and I thought I'd check it out.

Has anyone heard of it? Seems to be "crowd funding" (though apparently there's an SEC designation for it in the recent business startup act), where you can put up any amount (up to $2,500 in CA, unless you qualify as an investor through various qualifications on income and net worth, there is a category for 70k income + 70k non-home net worth and 250k net worth with no income restriction, etc), and you will get an "expected return" of between 4.25% and 7% from the projects I've seen, with several-year terms. Basically you invest in a solar project somewhere (like if a farm wants to go solar or something), and they pay you money back for it through a power purchasing agreement or something of the sort - essentially you are becoming the SolarCity in this equation.

Generally I'm pretty sure that I'm still looking for speculation, e.g. making over 7% per year, and of course there's always risk even with these. But I am somewhat intrigued and am curious what everyone else thinks about it, or if anyone has heard anything about it?

Here's a link: The Leading Solar Energy Investment Platform | Mosaic

I have heard of mosaic, but I think that it is a relatively new company so you have that risk as well. It seems like the returns are not big enough to be worth my time. I think that we could pool our funds together and outright order a solar farm from a SPWR, SCTY, CSIQ, etc. and then sell electricity to the grid and make more money that way. Cut out the middle man, i.e. Mosaic and reap the benefits.

 

[Johan]

SCTY having a great day so far... wish I had put more of my profits from TSLA into this yesterday. It feels like the better play heading into the gigafactory due to less dilution risk in the short term.

Yup! Apr85 calls I bought yesterday are almost double today!

 

[TSLA Siempre]

I just bought some puts on SCTY. If SCTY is going to be a partner in the giga-factory, I'm thinking there may be a capital raise around the corner for SCTY. I believe the giga-factory will be a boon TSLA, but not necessarily to its partners. Who knows. Just a gamble. My puts have already lost plenty of value in the last hour.

 

[AlMc]

Thought I would put this info here as not sure where else to put it. As you all may know, I have been researching Lithium mining companies since talk of the Gigafactory started to build.
I bought WLCDF (Western Lithium Corp). This is a start up that is producing products for the oil/gas exploration companies BUT also sits on a sizeable amount of Lithium. The stock is up 100% in 1 week since I bought it, probably due to the Gigafactory talk. It is very speculative play but might be worth a look.

I know that Elon has referred to Lithium as a VERY small component needed for battery production....but it is a US company that will bringing lithium on line about the time the Gigafactory will need it.

 

[InTheShadows]

If I were a participant in Sleepy's, Norse's et al "Contrarian" forum I'd have posted this there, but as I try to be active on only one forum at a time, I'm not, so:

I now have three separate PV systems in place in two locations - AK and AZ. In AK, I have two separate strings, going through two completely separate charge controllers, feeding my waaaaay off grid battery bank and overall elec. system for our compound there. Separate, because I created them at different times; they're separate geographically and have incompatible panels and everything else.

Anyway, the oldest unit, my "test" facility, not only is constrained in size - because I mounted the panels atop a 65-foot high tower I erected and is on a tracking rack - but also, because it now is "ancient" (2008, I think), its panels are a now-minuscule 130W size. Once I get my boom truck back, in early June, I am thinking of replacing them. The most bang I can get for the buck, given that I am absolutely limited in # panels (just 4, but the actual number isn't relevant: it's that I cannot add on by increasing # of panels), is to emplace the largest nameplate cap of most efficient panels on the market, as long as pricing is just about correspondent.

Thus the question: are SunPower's panels the ones that fit the bill? While I would love to wait one more season to learn if their new "X" panels are available, that always has been and for the foreseeable future will be the dilemma of this technology, so I'll disregard that. But how do I get in touch with a vendor of SPWR products?

Lastly, in interest of (fairly) full disclosure, while I have in the past at least gently disagreed with SleepyHead over SPWR - I continue to believe that SCTY's long term prospects are more exciting, my Alt.Energy portfolio - which is a very sizable fraction of my entire investment portfolio, consists of the following. "One part" is approximately equivalent to what I consider for me to be a "full position"...obviously, the $ value for that it is not appropriate for me to divulge. The extraordinary growth of esp. SCTY and TSLA over the time I have held the positions are part of the reason they are outsize holdings; the other reason is that I invested more - at the outset - in those two names, both as $ values and as a % of my holdings, than I ever have in any other companies. Lastly: I do NOT participate in derivatives, and I do NOT invest on margin. Period.


1/2 part Hanwha
1/2 part JA Solar
1/2 part Jinko
1/2 part Yinlgi
2/3 parts Rene Solar
3/4 parts First Solar
1.5 parts GT Advanced
2 parts Clean Energy Fuels
2 parts Canadian Solar
2.5 parts SunPower
4.5 parts Solar City
11 parts Tesla

ALL of these, with the exception of Clean Energy (Boone Pickens's CNG/LNG truck stop filling station network) have, as you know, done extremely well. I never have sold any of these names (nor traded any others in this sector), other than SCTY and a small fraction of TSLA - both of which I later more than re-filled - in order to pay taxes and buy a P85.

Send me a pm with all of your system details, I'm a SunPower dealer and will help get you pointed in the right direction. Can you send me the type of pipe you used and the size of the footer too? You will likely need a new rack too since they have changed sizes.

 

[nvsblman]

I don't like SCTY, because there business model relies on ignorant customers

I don't think this is the case at all. For example - We are a 1 income family as my wife currently stays home with our kids. We wanted to go solar, not just for the savings, but for environmental reasons too. We could have used our entire cash savings to pay for a solar system. Or, we could work with SCTY to put a larger system on our house where our savings (including paying the lease payment to SCTY) will have a similar <5 yr payback period. And the SCTY system is under warranty and any maintenance in covered. If a panel fails? They'll replace it.

So yes, in a perfect world, we could have bought a system outright, but the leases can be very advantageous for someone not willing or able to put that much money into it.

Side note: I've been lurking the investment threads for a while, thanks to you all for your valuable discussions!

 

[DaveT]

I don't think this is the case at all. For example - We are a 1 income family as my wife currently stays home with our kids. We wanted to go solar, not just for the savings, but for environmental reasons too. We could have used our entire cash savings to pay for a solar system. Or, we could work with SCTY to put a larger system on our house where our savings (including paying the lease payment to SCTY) will have a similar <5 yr payback period. And the SCTY system is under warranty and any maintenance in covered. If a panel fails? They'll replace it.

So yes, in a perfect world, we could have bought a system outright, but the leases can be very advantageous for someone not willing or able to put that much money into it.

Side note: I've been lurking the investment threads for a while, thanks to you all for your valuable discussions!

Thanks for joining the discussion. Can you share the details of your solarcity lease (ie, house size, precious electric bill, size of PC system, new bill, lease terms)?

 

[FluxCap]

Have to share this one with you guys. Oh the hypocrisy/irony:

Exxon’s Pro-Fracking CEO Is Suing to Stop Fracking Near His Mansion

 

[nvsblman]

Thanks for joining the discussion. Can you share the details of your solarcity lease (ie, house size, precious electric bill, size of PC system, new bill, lease terms)?

Sure! We're at just under 3k sq ft, two story house, two A/C units and a pool pump outside Phoenix. We have a N/S facing roof so we get full sun on the panels all day. Our system is a 7.92 kW system that generated just shy of 14.5k kWh last year. Our lease is for $89/month for 20 yrs (could have been cheaper if we prepayed more, but I think we only prepayed $1500) and our electricity bill has dropped ~$140 as a result of the solar system. It's actually dropped more than that, but partly due to some other changes (switching to Nests, finding our installed whole-home filtration system was set to run at a horribly inefficient speed) so it's hard to nail down an exact number.

So I guess looking back, our break even point is about 2.5 years.

And I would absolutely work with SCTY again. The installation process went very smoothly, and they took care of the small issues that came up during inspections very quickly.