This Latest Attempt to Force FSD Upon Everyone is Hurting the FSD Cause More Than Helping

[ewoodrick]

FSD (supervised) was FSD (beta), and before that Enhanced Autopilot, and before that Autopilot. Tesla keeps changing the names, and fragmenting the functions.

That's not quite right. It's a lot more nuanced than that. Sure, the FSD product line leads the development. And EA and AP are basically earlier versions (more specifically a subset of the functionality at a specific time.)

But yes, at one point in time through FSD history, the EA and AP functionality were nearly the same as FSD.
That comes from the fact that Tesla was getting a lot of pressure to create features similar to the other cars of the day. So they grabbed a bunch of code and called it AutoPilot. They then grabbed a bigger chunk of code and called it EAP.

But when AutoPilot was introduced, it was NOT the same as FSD
When EAP was introduced, it was not the same as FSD.

FSD was always a few jumps beyond.

 

[Kevy Baby]

Read and understand exactly the words that @KelvinMace used. He did not say they are same. He said that it used to be.

I did read and understand exactly the words used. I have copied the post again below

FSD (supervised) was FSD (beta), and before that Enhanced Autopilot, and before that Autopilot. Tesla keeps changing the names, and fragmenting the functions.

Taking this one step at a time

FSD (supervised) was FSD (beta), and before that Enhanced Autopilot...

The first part (that FSDs used to be FSDb) is correct
But when it was stated that FSDx "used to be EAP", THAT is incorrect: they are still different things. Yes, FSD has all of the elements of EAP, just adding the surface street functionality. THIS HAS NOT CHANGED (yet - who knows what is going to happen at the end of the trial) and is the same as it has been since at least 2019 (which is when I got my car and started paying attention)

...and before that Autopilot.

Same thing as above. While the AP functionality is present in EAP, they have been separate things for a while. AP comes with the car (since at least 2019) and EAP has been an add-on. EAP adds functionality to AP just like FSDx added functionality to EAP.

Tesla keeps changing the names, and fragmenting the functions.

Other than changing "Full Self Driving (Beta)" to "Full Self Driving (Supervised)" (a change that just took place with the start of this trial period), there have been no name changes since at least 2019. And no fragmenting has occurred in that same time frame. Or, tell me specifically where it has taken place.

 

[ewoodrick]

I did read and understand exactly the words used. I have copied the post again below

You are both arguing over semantics and you are both losing.

Basic point is, as FSD has grown, older versions mostly got spun off into other products.

If I'm not mistaken NoA is pretty much EAP now.
And before NoA, what existed is now AutoPilot

 

[Kevy Baby]

You are both arguing over semantics and you are both losing

Please tell me where I am incorrect. Everything I have posted on this topic has been presented with the FACTS from the Tesla Manual.

Basic point is, as FSD has grown, older versions mostly got spun off into other products.

Nothing has been "spun off." Please prove me wrong. But the original detail I was responding to was the individual who essentially said that FSD is what AP used to be. And this is just not true

If I'm not mistaken NoA is pretty much EAP now.

NoAP was announced in late 2016 as part of the new "Enhanced Autopilot" and finally released using HW 2/2.5 in Q3 2018. So, yeah, NoAP has always been a part of EAP.

And before NoA, what existed is now AutoPilot

And surprisingly, was called Autopilot then with the same feature set as it has now. Originally, they charged for it, but made it standard AND increased the cost of the cars by pretty much the same price (I believe it was $3 by this time) at the same time.

 

[E90alex]

“Autopilot” is just an umbrella term for what Tesla calls its ADAS suites. There are different levels of Autopilot, which all come with different features.

It’s definitely confusing especially with how Tesla names and positions things. Especially the naming and crossover of features between OG Autopilot and current Autopilot levels.

NoAP is a feature, not a “level” of Autopilot. It was introduced with Enhanced Autopilot.


The Levels of Autopilot software are (were):

Autopilot (OG Model S Autopilot, aka AP1, powered by MobilEye)
-TACC
-Autosteer
-Automatic Lane Change
-Autopark
-Summon

Basic Autopilot (the baseline in all current cars)
-TACC
-Autosteer

Enhanced Autopilot (currently $6000)
-TACC
-Autosteer
-Navigate on Autopilot
-Automatic Lane Change
-Autopark
-Summon/Smart Summon

Full-Self Driving Capability (currently $12k or $99/mo)
-EAP features from above, plus:
-Traffic Light and Stop Sign control
-Autosteer on City Streets

 

[M3BlueGeorgia]

[Yesterday FSD was unexpectedly switched on by my wife when she thought she was switching on cruise control. That's bad, since we hadn't activated it in Settings.]

It was activated without her knowledge and without her permission.

Totally blindsided her.

 

[E90alex]

You can’t activate it without accepting the terms. So either she hit agree without reading and realizing what she accepted or someone did it previously for her on her profile.

 

[ewoodrick]

Please tell me where I am incorrect. Everything I have posted on this topic has been presented with the FACTS from the Tesla Manual.



Nothing has been "spun off." Please prove me wrong. But the original detail I was responding to was the individual who essentially said that FSD is what AP used to be. And this is just not true



NoAP was announced in late 2016 as part of the new "Enhanced Autopilot" and finally released using HW 2/2.5 in Q3 2018. So, yeah, NoAP has always been a part of EAP.



And surprisingly, was called Autopilot then with the same feature set as it has now. Originally, they charged for it, but made it standard AND increased the cost of the cars by pretty much the same price (I believe it was $3 by this time) at the same time.

I'm not going to say that you are right are wrong.

But this just isn't important enough to argue. Chill!

 

[KelvinMace]

I did read and understand exactly the words used. I have copied the post again below



Taking this one step at a time



The first part (that FSDs used to be FSDb) is correct
But when it was stated that FSDx "used to be EAP", THAT is incorrect: they are still different things. Yes, FSD has all of the elements of EAP, just adding the surface street functionality. THIS HAS NOT CHANGED (yet - who knows what is going to happen at the end of the trial) and is the same as it has been since at least 2019 (which is when I got my car and started paying attention)



Same thing as above. While the AP functionality is present in EAP, they have been separate things for a while. AP comes with the car (since at least 2019) and EAP has been an add-on. EAP adds functionality to AP just like FSDx added functionality to EAP.


Other than changing "Full Self Driving (Beta)" to "Full Self Driving (Supervised)" (a change that just took place with the start of this trial period), there have been no name changes since at least 2019. And no fragmenting has occurred in that same time frame. Or, tell me specifically where it has taken place.

Up until v12, I could use TACC and it was perfect for city driving. It stopped at stop signs/lights, and proceeded through green lights without prompting. It read and adjusted the cars speed to match speed limit signs. All of these features have now been removed and placed into FSD only. TACC now stops at all lights, and must be prompted to continue (which it sometimes fails to do and must be disengaged). It no longer adjusts speeds when speed limits change. FSD will perform these tasks, kind of. It also has problems with speed limit signs sporadically. It slows down suddenly for no discernible reason, increasing chances of a rear end collision. I have a stretch of brand new, well-marked pavement with a 55mph limit, that FSD sees, but then decides the speed limit is 30mph, and slows abruptly. FSD gets in the wrong lane, then tries to change lanes causing dangerous situations. Prior to the update, it navigated this stretch of road without a hitch.

In short, FSD is as unreliable as ever, but now it has made TACC unreliable, and annoying, by removing functionality. And before someone tries to claim it is just my car with problems, my wife's car (same year, but a performance version) still running v11, also worked fine. She kept declining updates to v12, until this weekend when it went ahead and installed it anyway, and now her car has the same problems as mine. TACC no longer works, and its important functions have been moved to buggy FSD.

 

[KelvinMace]

Read and understand exactly the words that @KelvinMace used. He did not say they are same. He said that it used to be.

Yep. When the feature was first introduced, it was called Autopilot. Then they split feature between Autopilot and Enhanced Autopilot. Then they introduced FSD for what they originally meant by Autopilot. Then when they had problems with regulators, it became FSD (Beta). Then more PR problems, and it became FSD (Supervised).

All of this renaming of features, has confused people, and the shifting around of features to satisfy new pricing models doesn't help either. What it says in the manual this week, is not helpful if that may change next week.

 

[KelvinMace]

Wasn't my wife's experience today.

FSD was activated automatically without her knowledge.

Then when she went to switch on cruise control, she unexpectedly got FSD instead.

FSD almost wrecked the car for her, as it switched lanes into a right turn lane far too early and she had to swerve back to avoid a curb.

This happened to my wife. She had REPEATEDLY declined upgrading to v12 because she hated the changes it made to TACC. Over the weekend, the software updated anyway, and now TACC is unusable, and FSD is as buggy as ever, worse even, as roads it worked on fine under v11, now have MAJOR problems reading signs and maintaining the correct speed limit.

 

[KelvinMace]

Nope (mostly)

From a FUNCTIONALITY standpoint (software stacks are a different topic)

• AP is still AP
• EAP is still EAP
• FSD (supervised) was FSD (beta) - this is the only correct part of the statement.

Perhaps this will change at the end of the FSD trial period, but as of right now (and according to the Tesla Manual), AP, EAP and FSDx are all separate things

Here's what you get with Autopilot (screenshot from the manual)
View attachment 1038741

Here's the functionality that gets ADDED for Enhanced Autopilot (screenshot from the manual)

View attachment 1038742

Here's the functionality that gets ADDED for Full Self Driving (screenshot from the manual)

View attachment 1038743

TACC used to have Stop light/sign control. The feature was removed from TACC (I have always had what is now called FSD since 2018) in v12, and can now only be accessed in FSD (Supervised). I no longer have a choice between switching between TACC and FSD, unless I stop the car and switch modes. TACC now stops at green lights, which it did not used to do.

 

[HitchHiker71]

In short, FSD is as unreliable as ever, but now it has made TACC unreliable, and annoying, by removing functionality. And before someone tries to claim it is just my car with problems, my wife's car (same year, but a performance version) still running v11, also worked fine. She kept declining updates to v12, until this weekend when it went ahead and installed it anyway, and now her car has the same problems as mine. TACC no longer works, and its important functions have been moved to buggy FSD.

IIRC you can simply disable FSD and TACC/Autosteer will become available again.

 

[KelvinMace]

So you'll settle for that instead of post #131 that shows you the screen settings one needs to press and the definition of what you get when you engage Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control (beta).

Also post #137 conveniently doesn't include the manual's section on Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control (Beta).

Follow the link given: https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/models/en_us/GUID-101D1BF5-52D2-469A-A57D-E7230BBEE94B.html

Now IGNORE what Kevy Baby posted to you as conclusive proof, and look to the left side of that screen at the menu. Click on Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control.

That takes you to this link:

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/models/en_us/GUID-A701F7DC-875C-4491-BC84-605A77EA152C.html

And the key phrase, which has been linked to and quoted in at least a half dozen posts now, along with the testimony from those who have been using this feature that Kevy Baby claims they don't have (or only have now because of the free FSDS trial) and read:

Until v12, my M3, with FSD (called Autopilot in 2016) would stop at stop signs/lights (after the feature was added), or would proceed through green lights UNPROMPTED while using TACC. As of v12, it will no longer do this in TACC, only in FSD mode. TACC no longer adjusts speed based on signs, only FSD (Supervised). Also, periodically, TACC will stop at a green light, despite being prompted to proceed.

TACC used to make city driving pleasant. Following along with traffic, stopping at lights/signs, or proceeding through green lights, adjusting speeds to stay within the speed limit. Now it stops at all lights, slows suddenly, doesn't read the speed limit signs, and routinely gets into the wrong lane.

So, TACC and FSD are now unreliable. Driving my car is now annoying.

 

[KelvinMace]

IIRC you can simply disable FSD and TACC/Autosteer will become available again.

Yes, but TACC no longer functions as it once did. It now stops for green lights, whereas prior to the v12 update, it did not.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Yes, but TACC no longer functions as it once did. It now stops for green lights, whereas prior to the v12 update, it did not.

Yeah - I think they removed the stop sign/light beta function when using TACC unfortunately.

 

[zoomer0056]

now TACC is unusable,

Can you add some detail to this statement?

 

[Kevy Baby]

I no longer have a choice between switching between TACC and FSD, unless I stop the car and switch modes.

You can switch from FSD to Autopilot while driving if FSD is not active (I have done it a couple of times when I got frustrated). You need to put the car in park to go back in the other direction.

 

[arbitrage000]

Yes, but TACC no longer functions as it once did. It now stops for green lights, whereas prior to the v12 update, it did not.

What did Autosteer setting do for you prior to the V12 update? Was it proceeding through green without prompting just like TACC was?

I still can't figure out why everyone else but you that has had FSD V10 or V11 for a year or more reports that TACC and Autosteer haven't been proceeding through greens. Same as V12. So far you are the only one that had it doing that prior to V12.

 

[zoomer0056]

TACC now stops at green lights, which it did not used to do.

That function can be turned off with 2024.3.15 FSDS v12.3.4.