This Latest Attempt to Force FSD Upon Everyone is Hurting the FSD Cause More Than Helping

[arbitrage000]

TACC used to have Stop light/sign control. The feature was removed from TACC (I have always had what is now called FSD since 2018) in v12, and can now only be accessed in FSD (Supervised). I no longer have a choice between switching between TACC and FSD, unless I stop the car and switch modes. TACC now stops at green lights, which it did not used to do.

One workaround to go from TACC back to FSD without stopping is to setup a duplicate Driver Profile. One with FSD enabled. The other with TACC (or Autosteer) enabled. You can then switch between profiles while in Drive.

 

[Vines]

That function can be turned off with 2024.3.15 FSDS v12.3.4.
View attachment 1039000

Good to see that others are looking at the available options to see what changes happened.

I agree these can be confusing but I think overall this is progress. @KelvinMace does this fix your issue with TACC?

 

[arbitrage000]

Good to see that others are looking at the available options to see what changes happened.

I agree these can be confusing but I think overall this is progress. @KelvinMace does this fix your issue with TACC?

I don't think that will fix his issue. He wants the car to stop at reds and proceed through greens (without prompting it to). With the current version of FSD if you turn off the stop light option the car won't stop at reds. If you turn it on it stops at reds and stops at greens (unless you tap the accelerator to tell it to proceed).
The way Kelvin wants it to work is the way I always assumed it would work until I got the trial and found out it will stop at greens unless prompted through each time. But everyone else says it has been this way in V11 also.

 

[ewoodrick]

I don't think that will fix his issue. He wants the car to stop at reds and proceed through greens (without prompting it to). With the current version of FSD if you turn off the stop light option the car won't stop at reds. If you turn it on it stops at reds and stops at greens (unless you tap the accelerator to tell it to proceed).
The way Kelvin wants it to work is the way I always assumed it would work until I got the trial and found out it will stop at greens unless prompted through each time. But everyone else says it has been this way in V11 also.

This tends to be called marketing.

Microsoft does a lot of this type stuff. A new feature is created by engineering and then marketing gets to determine which license gets it. It may be free, it may be costly. And sometimes they are moved.


Tesla has 3 levels of assisted driving. (They really only want one)
Tesla has to determine which features go into which packages.
If there is a feature that you REALLY WANT, just assume that is the next level package.

If the middle package solves the needs of 95% of the people, then there's too much in the package, it doesn't create a demand for the top package.

EAP's goal seems to be just competitive with other manufacturers TACC packages. If they don't do it, don't expect EAP to do it.

And as a purchaser of FSD, I don't want my value decreased because EAP does most of what I need.

 

[KelvinMace]

That function can be turned off with 2024.3.15 FSDS v12.3.4.
View attachment 1039000

Then the car will not stop at lights or signs, which is not what I want. Prior to the update, my 2018 M3 (and my wife's M3P), both which have FSD (from back when it was called Autopilot) used to stop at red lights/stop signs, and proceed through green lights without prompting. After the v12 update, they will no longer proceed through a green light without prompting (and some times not even with a prompt). Tesla appears to have removed the ability to proceed through green lights unprompted from TACC mode, and restricted it to FSD mode. This is annoying as FSD (Supervised) is still buggy in city driving, whereas, until the update, TACC worked very well in city driving. Now if I use TACC, I have to constantly prompt the car to go through green lights (and occasionally it disregards the prompt, and stops anyway requiring that I disengage TACC), and also have to adjust my speed, since TACC no longer automatically adjusts speed when the speed limit changes.

 

[KelvinMace]

I don't think that will fix his issue. He wants the car to stop at reds and proceed through greens (without prompting it to). With the current version of FSD if you turn off the stop light option the car won't stop at reds. If you turn it on it stops at reds and stops at greens (unless you tap the accelerator to tell it to proceed).
The way Kelvin wants it to work is the way I always assumed it would work until I got the trial and found out it will stop at greens unless prompted through each time. But everyone else says it has been this way in V11 also.

Exactly. And no, it was not that way in v11, as I had been driving with the car proceeding through green lights unprompted since "traffic light/sign control" was introduced years ago.

I bought Autopilot (now called FSD (Supervised)) with the car back in 2018. FSD (Supervised) will move through green lights unprompted, just as TACC used to, but is too buggy for city use. TACC has also stopped adjusting the car's speed based on speed limit signs, which it used to do.

 

[KelvinMace]

This tends to be called marketing.

Microsoft does a lot of this type stuff. A new feature is created by engineering and then marketing gets to determine which license gets it. It may be free, it may be costly. And sometimes they are moved.


Tesla has 3 levels of assisted driving. (They really only want one)
Tesla has to determine which features go into which packages.
If there is a feature that you REALLY WANT, just assume that is the next level package.

If the middle package solves the needs of 95% of the people, then there's too much in the package, it doesn't create a demand for the top package.

EAP's goal seems to be just competitive with other manufacturers TACC packages. If they don't do it, don't expect EAP to do it.

And as a purchaser of FSD, I don't want my value decreased because EAP does most of what I need.

I bought Autopilot (now called FSD Supervised)) with the car in 2018. Stopping at a green light is a safety hazard. As a purchaser of "FSD" from the outset, I want the features I paid for restored.

 

[KelvinMace]

What did Autosteer setting do for you prior to the V12 update? Was it proceeding through green without prompting just like TACC was?

I still can't figure out why everyone else but you that has had FSD V10 or V11 for a year or more reports that TACC and Autosteer haven't been proceeding through greens. Same as V12. So far you are the only one that had it doing that prior to V12.

I seldom used Autosteer by itself, so I don't know. I do know what I have been driving with for the past several years, and very much noticed it when it went away. I think the confusion is that people who did not pay for "FSD" (formerly called Autopilot when I bought it), did not have this function until they got the free trial. But between v11 and v12, Tesla moved that ability for cars with FSD, from TACC mode to FSD mode ONLY.

 

[KelvinMace]

Can you add some detail to this statement?

I have explained it in numerous posts here. Prior to the update, my two 2018 M3s (bought with FSD, then called Autopilot), when in TACC mode. Would stop at red lights/stop signs, but proceed through green lights UNPROMPTED. TACC mode would read changing speed limit signs, and adjust my speed automatically. This made it very convenient when driving in city traffic with constant signal lights, and changing speed zones. After the update, the car now brakes for green lights, and will not adjust the speed of the car when the speed limit changes. This means I am constantly having to prompt the car through green lights, and adjust the speed of the car if the speed limit changes.

My car was updated first, and immediately broke TACC mode (It doesn't help that v12 no longer allows you to easily choose between ACC/FSD with the stalk) My wife's car continued to perform correctly, as she refused the update. That is until this weekend when the update was installed anyway, and now she is in the same boat I am.

Also, the very idea of a car stopping at green lights is a safety issue, since it invites rear end collisions. The only feature I had on the car which worked perfectly, has now been broken and rendered dangerous to use. TACC mode with traffic light/sign control" was the only feature Tesla had in the software suite which worked flawlessly for me.

 

[KelvinMace]

You can’t activate it without accepting the terms. So either she hit agree without reading and realizing what she accepted or someone did it previously for her on her profile.

You are not required to agree to use FSD 12 until after it is installed. she did not consent to it being installed. She ignored the update prompt every time it came up.

 

[KelvinMace]

“Autopilot” is just an umbrella term for what Tesla calls its ADAS suites. There are different levels of Autopilot, which all come with different features.

This was not true in 2016 when I reserved the car.

It was simply called "Autopilot"

 

[E90alex]

This was not true in 2016 when I reserved the car.

It was simply called "Autopilot"

Well it’s true now. What was true in the past does not apply to present day. Especially with software features. And whatever it said when you reserved the car is subject to change. Just ask all the people that originally reserved one hoping to buy it for $35k.

 

[dtdtdt]

Prior to the update, my two 2018 M3s, when in TACC mode. Would stop at red lights/stop signs, but proceed through green lights UNPROMPTED. TACC mode would read changing speed limit signs, and adjust my speed automatically. This made it very convenient when driving in city traffic with constant signal lights, and changing speed zones. After the update, the car now brakes for green lights, and will not adjust the speed of the car when the speed limit changes. This means I am constantly having to prompt the car through green lights, and adjust the speed of the car if the speed limit changes.

I too miss the TACC mode of FSDb 11. As you point out, there are several use-cases for FSD without auto steering. As others have suggested, this probably got removed due to the confusion some people had when overriding FSD via the steering wheel left you in TACC mode. (I confess this happened to me multiple times.) Perhaps Tesla will find some unambiguous way to bring FSD TACC back?

For the routes I drive, FSD 12 does a tolerable job of steering (better than 11), so I usually go with FSD rather than all manual.

 

[ewoodrick]

Then the car will not stop at lights or signs, which is not what I want. Prior to the update, my 2018 M3 (and my wife's M3P), both which have FSD (from back when it was called Autopilot) used to stop at red lights/stop signs, and proceed through green lights without prompting. After the v12 update, they will no longer proceed through a green light without prompting (and some times not even with a prompt). Tesla appears to have removed the ability to proceed through green lights unprompted from TACC mode, and restricted it to FSD mode. This is annoying as FSD (Supervised) is still buggy in city driving, whereas, until the update, TACC worked very well in city driving. Now if I use TACC, I have to constantly prompt the car to go through green lights (and occasionally it disregards the prompt, and stops anyway requiring that I disengage TACC), and also have to adjust my speed, since TACC no longer automatically adjusts speed when the speed limit changes.

So, as I indicated, Tesla has created a desire for you to upgrade. Marketing worked.

I think that you are either the only or one of the few that think that EAP does better than FSD.
But then again, you say that EAP doesn't do what you want. So FSD is doing better?

 

[Kevy Baby]

So, as I indicated, Tesla has created a desire for you to upgrade. Marketing worked.

Not for me it hasn't. I will be sticking with EAP when the trial is over.

 

[KelvinMace]

So, as I indicated, Tesla has created a desire for you to upgrade. Marketing worked.

I think that you are either the only or one of the few that think that EAP does better than FSD.
But then again, you say that EAP doesn't do what you want. So FSD is doing better?

Upgrade to what? I bought FSD six years ago when I bought the car.

FSD is usually reliable on highways, but terrible in the city. I can drive for hours on the interstate without intervention, but have to intervene every trip during city driving. TACC worked smoothly in city driving, but now is hurky-jerky at every stoplight.

All I want Tesla to do is restore proper function to TACC and the ability to choose between TACC and FSD with the stalk like before. FSD is great on the highway, unreliable in cities.

 

[KelvinMace]

I too miss the TACC mode of FSDb 11. As you point out, there are several use-cases for FSD without auto steering. As others have suggested, this probably got removed due to the confusion some people had when overriding FSD via the steering wheel left you in TACC mode. (I confess this happened to me multiple times.) Perhaps Tesla will find some unambiguous way to bring FSD TACC back?

For the routes I drive, FSD 12 does a tolerable job of steering (better than 11), so I usually go with FSD rather than all manual.

Steering (other than arbitrarily changing lanes) is generally not the problem, it is the sudden slow downs, wrong turns, and wrong lane selection. TACC with stop light/sign control (that doesn't require prompting) worked perfectly and made city driving pleasant. FSD was fine on highways.

 

[ewoodrick]

Not for me it hasn't. I will be sticking with EAP when the trial is over.

Great for you, that's why there are multiple tiers.

 

[!igs]

Warning: long detailed post ahead so get comfy if you choose to read it. I broke it up a little bit for those who want to read certain aspects.

► Overview:
This may be an unpopular opinion in this pro-Tesla community with many members to whom Tesla can do no wrong. I know that Tesla wants to get people to experience it in hopes they'll fall in love with it and not only buy it but tell others all about how amazing it is. The problem with this is that it's not there yet. Maybe one day, years from now, it will be. It's not there yet. So what they're doing is forcing people who have likely not experienced any form of AP themselves to experience full FSD as their first "dip of the toe into water" so to speak. This isn't a good idea. Those who have never experienced anything other than cruise control (I'm old enough to remember when this was a hotly contested feature along the lines of Autopilot) will be overwhelmed and not in the positive way that Elon thinks.


► Prime example:
A good friend of mine who's very into vehicles and tech who's also a smart fella bought himself a Model Y about 6-7 months ago. He'd been in our Teslas numerous times but had never really experienced any of the driver's aids himself. Just heard us talk about it so had at least an idea of what to expect with his. He took delivery and had 3-months of FSD trial. Gave it an honest trial and hated it. Now he will ONLY use TACC and nothing I can say about how great TACC + Lane Keep is will get him to even consider trying it again. I would label him as an average consumer, probably on the younger or more tech advanced side who would be most receptive to trying this sort of thing. In other words, the exact consumer Tesla is trying to convert. It's having the opposite effect based on new owners that I've talked to.


► Our first hand experience:
In my experience it's trash. I was pretty excited to get it as we have a trip coming up to Dallas which is an awful place to drive... even with good navigation which Teslas have. I was excited for the prospect of letting the car do the driving for us. We took delivery of our new Model Y that included the 1-month that everyone is currently getting along with the 3-months for self-referring for a total of 4 months. I even bragged to my wife when I discovered that those stacked when I was afraid they might overlap and I'd "only" get 3 months of use. I even joked that I sure hope I didn't get addicted and then feel compelled to buy it for $12k.

I went ahead and enabled it along with all of the related whiz-bang features, bells & whistles. We had a few hours worth of driving to do (city and highway both) so I thought it would be a great test since it was in areas we lived in and near so I knew them well.

At first I thought it was neat. But the more I used it, the worse it got. I had "Mad Max" and "Aggressive" set and the car was anything but those. Whenever it encountered a stop sign at an intersection, even if there was no cars or pedestrians in site, it would come to a full stop some 15ft before the line, wait about 5 seconds and then slowly creep forward to the line before stopping AGAIN. Why? What's the purpose of this. Then, it would proceed to take another 20 seconds or so to slowly make the turn through the intersection.

This was if there was ZERO cars, pedestrians or anything I would consider needed to be accounted for. Just a ghost town, an intersection and a single Tesla w/FSD enabled. In other words, a best case scenario. In all of these instances I didn't have someone behind me (thankfully) so I gave it full freedom to sort itself out. It was laughable.

This would magnified dramatically if there was any type of foliage, fence or other obstructions that was even close to the intersection. Not even in the line of site but just existed. It would creep a foot, stop, wait 5 seconds, creep another foot, stop, wait 5 seconds, creep another foot, wait 5 seconds... you get the point. It did this every. single. time. It was painful.

At one point, it tried to take us the wrong way down a one-way exit from a parking lot. I had to take over, stop it, reverse backwards back into the lot as cars were trying to exist a very busy road into the parking lot and had to sit and wait on me to sort things out since the lane was only wide enough for one vehicle, marked clearly as exit only multiple ways and curved for traffic coming into the parking lot.

On 4-lane highways it was doing all sorts of unexpected things. On one stretch of 65mph road we were the only vehicle within about a mile in any direction and, seemingly for no reason, it changed lanes from the right lane to the left lane. I assumed it wanted to be there so I just let it do it's things. About 30 seconds after establishing itself in the left lane, it then signaled and went back to the right lane, seemingly for no reason once again. I jokingly said it just passed a ghost car that wasn't there because it's behavior was about what you'd expect from passing a car on the highway doing a few mph less... but there was no car there.

Then, not 5min later, I came up on a car that was doing about 50mph in a 65mph zone. I had the offset of the car set to 11% so I was doing 72mph. The car came up behind the slower car and simply decreased speed to follow it at a safe distance at 50mph. There was not another car anywhere near us. I left it there for almost 2-painful-minutes to give it ample time to pass the slower car safely. I finally took over and manually passed to car to kick it back up to speed. Keep in mind that I have every user-setting available set to the most aggressive version possible as I'm not faint-of-heart when it comes to driving plus I've owned 9 Teslas now... 8 with AP of one form or another.

The last straw for me was a series of nanny alerts telling me to keep my eyes on the road to include one where it warned me to keep my eyes on the road after turning my head to check my blind spot before passing another car on a 4-lane highway. I had to look at the screen to see what it was on about and when I realized it wanted me to watch the road I looked back up to the road. Out of the corner of my eye I saw it go away so I knew I had satisfied it. It wasn't 10 seconds later I needed to look back at the screen since FSD was doing all sorts of weird things with the speed limit (it wouldn't recognize 65mph signs and would keep the "seen" sign at 45mph for a single multi-mile stretch that had several different 65mph signs along the way) to include going way above or way below my set speed (even after I disabled the stupid "auto speed based on other traffic" feature available in FSD) so I looked at the screen to check my current speed was where I wanted it. No joke, as I moved my eyes from the road to the speed limit it popped up again.. in that same instant.

I was pretty upset with it at this point. My first thought was "if I get 5 strikes or whatever it is... will I also lose base Autopilot as a punishment as well?" because I wasn't sure. It's not clear. As I was considering being w/o the Base Autopilot for our upcoming road trip and how annoying that would be we came up on a stop light. We were in the left lane and there was no cars in front of us. In the right lane was a single car that was already at a stop at the red light. The car made a borderline aggressive stop to signal and get behind the stopped car. Why? On the heals of the nanny BS in the previous paragraph that was it for me. I was done with this little experience. I went back to the middle option that is basically TACC and Lane keep, disabled all of the other "features" below that and effectively took our car back to Base Autopilot as best as possible.


► Conclusion:
All this FSD trial period did for me was confirm that FSD was laughable at $12k. I truly feel for all of those who paid for it. Even in 2024 many years after we were promised robo-taxis would be the norm. Tesla needs to stop forcing the unfinished version of FSD onto the average car driver. Simply put: it's terrifying in it's current state. People are already uneasy about letting a "computer" drive for them (with good reason) and then you reinforce this assumption with a dreadful and downright dangerous experience where the safety and very lives of them and their loved ones are at risk. Most don't realize that there are version short of FSD that actually offer a tremendous driver experience and a wonderful entry into letting a "computer" assist them with driving a car. Not only do they not need to force FSD in it's current stage upon the average consumer but they also need to stop working functions for future functions that aren't yet ready.

That Elon guy is some kind of special. He decided to showcase the absolute worst FSD version (v12) to the world to be laughed at. Now everyone will know what a joke FSD is and what a joke of a company Tesla is. You cannot be this dumb. He must be intentionally trying to crash the stock price or destroy the company.

 

[Kevy Baby]