FSD 12 perspective from a previous skeptic

My prior foray into FSD Beta was documented here: Thoughts from a first time FSD Beta User: HW4.

TLDR for that take: Highway drives = Good, "around town" (suburban and rural driving), long way to go. That was version 11.4.4.

I received software update 2024.3.6 (FSD 12.3.2.1) and the free month trial yesterday, I drove around for about 6 hours on mostly suburban roads plus some highway miles. TLDR for this version: I am pretty blown away. All of the talk about "much more human like driving" is accurate IMO. It passed the wife test. Of the few actual disengagements I had, only one was what I would say is not a "corner case". That being said...the one constant (still) issue...the one thing that is not "natural" feeling, is how it handles unprotected turns. To get it to fee "natural" I am constantly pressing the accelerator to push it through and commit sooner than it would otherwise.

On to the details:

I drive a 2023 Model S, HW 4, Non USS. Northern NJ driving. My drives used the "auto speed" mode set in the "normal" position. Note: Elon had made a tweet recently that FSD 12 does not utilize HW4 performance: it runs HW4 in "HW3 emulation mode", which ultimately means that for now, HW4 performance will actually lag that of HW3. This will continue to be the case until Tesla provides specific support for HW4 (whatever that entails....specific training, recompiling, etc.).

I am the kind of person that would roll his eyes every time Whole Mars Blog made another X post about his latest "zero disengagement drive" seemingly every day for the past 2 years. That has just not been anything closely resembling my experience. I don't see a need for FSD myself as I enjoy driving locally. I do appreciate FSD on the highway for long road trips. This is why I purchased Advanced Autopilot on my S, but not FSD. So after my original FSD trial expired this past Dec, I have not used it since. It was potentially more nerve wracking using it than not.

I do have an investment in Tesla, so I keep tabs on FSD progress, and the best way is to try out the new beta for myself as a consumer, and of course the new 30 day free trial provides that opportunity.

Overall impressions: Night and day difference from the past version. No "herky jerky wheel spasm movements." No "what the hell is this car thinking" moments. The best way I could describe it in one sentence: "Imagine if you are a driving instructor, teaching a 30 year old driver who has had a handful of lessons to date." What I mean by that is you have a good level of base confidence in how it's going to drive...the driver may be more tentative in situations where a more experienced driver would not...and while you pay extra attention when you see "novel conditions" on the road, you are more often surprised vs. disappointed at how those situations are handled.

Over my several hours of driving (mostly suburban roads), these were my only disengagements:
1) On a narrow road, car did not see a (I assume fallen) "branch" sticking out of a hedge at about headlight height. If I did not disengage to avoid it, it may have been sticking out into the road enough to hit / scratch the car.
2) On a two way street downtown...a car two ahead of mine stopped to parallel park. The car directly ahead of me stopped to wait. My car stopped for a couple seconds, then appeared to start to want to go around. (In some cases, it may be appropriate to go around...like if a car is double parked, but not this one.)
3) Car was approaching an intersection and deciding "which lane" to go in. It appeared to still be indecisive as it was approaching the car in front. Just as I was about to manually hit the brake to stop, the tesla stopped itself using Emergency Braking. This is actually good to know: that Tesla's emergency safety features are always at work no matter who is driving (you or FSD).
4) Before crossing a one lane bridge, my direction is supposed to yield to on-coming traffic. I did not feel the car was slowing enough to yield to an oncoming car, so I stopped it myself.

I did have one disengagement on the highway. (I believe the highway stack is using FSD 11.x....but someone would need to confirm.) FYI...You can tell for sure when you are diving on the Highway stack vs. FSD 12 stack, because when driving on the highway stack you no longer have "auto speed" indicator, but the original "set speed" options. The highway disengagement was for making a turn onto an exit ramp so aggressively that made me uncomfortable enough to not trust it was going to correct in time.

That's it.

Even the "auto speed" worked fairly well. YEs, there were times when I would have driven a few MPH faster, but overall very good and comfortable. I do know that I tend to drive faster than most.

The one, still consistent, issue on FSD is the unprotected turns. I am constantly...constantly having the push the car through unprotected intersections with the accelerator because I can see that it is clear to go...and the car is just creeping. Mind you, it is steering fine (no freaky wheel spasms)...it's motion is smooth (no stop-start-stop-start)....it really feels like a first time driver that you just need to ensure it "yes...it's really OK to go now...GO!".

I still think that one reason for this is still NHTSA's insistence on certain behavior "at stop signs." The car stops much, much too soon at intersections....then it starts to creep forward. 75% of the time when it comes to the first stop...there is no visibility (for me, and presumably the car).

This is not how people actually drive naturally, and this is behavior that I hope Tesla can lobby NHTSA to relax on.

In sum: I am now very bullish on FSD...where if you asked me 4 months ago I would say "they are a long way away." Other than the stop-sign / unprotected turn behavior, I really feel that they are now legitimately in the "chase the 9s" (address corner case) era. Kudos to the FSD team at Tesla!

For anyone else taking advantage of FSD...I encourage you to:
1) Of course, always stay alert. Don't be complacent.
2) Once you get a feel for how FSD generally behaves, make sure you
a) Always disengage when you are uncomfortable. Don't "try" and "force" zero disengagement drives. The only way to feedback improvements to Tesla is to disengage in these situations where it is appropriate.
b) Likewise, use the accelerator pedal to push though intersections / situations where you would do so if driving manually. DON'T think "I'll just see if it eventually makes it through." Again, the way we will help out training, is to provide feedback that is consistent with how you would actually drive.

"I'm probably not driving" by Edsel L is licensed under CC BY-SA 2.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[Madmolecule]

Are we expecting too much too soon? 99 or 99.9, this is a big improvement. I’m willing to wait and be patient with 2 steps forward and one step back. What is the alternative? I’ve seen some subtleties

Maybe so, I did not see a big improvement. If I am expecting too much too soon, when would br the proper time to be frustrated with the software. Backwards steps are backwards.
The alternative is to focus on driver assistance instead of driver replacement. if they can figure it out, I would much rather be in the backseat with my dogs in the front, and the car fully insured for Tesla software. But we are a month away, from the announcement that 13 will be unbelievable, it will have a super stack, with a premium stack, and a giga stack, and should be out anytime now.

 

[garydoe]

Are we expecting too much too soon? 99 or 99.9, this is a big improvement. I’m willing to wait and be patient with 2 steps forward and one step back. What is the alternative? Has anyone noticed the new positive subtleties along with the negatives. 12.3 is at least a full decimal point in the right direction.

 

[KerrySkates]

Not even Tesla can defy the laws of physics.

FSD is not a sensor problem...it's an "intelligence" problem.

With Vision only...one can expect that at the limit, a "vision only" FSD vehicle will be at least as good as the best human driver in such conditions.

It is a hardware and intelligence problem. Human drivers don’t face the same challenges presented to the cameras on existing Tesla vehicles. There is no hardware to clear the vision of the cameras. There is a wiper to clear the field of view for the human. A human with good eyesight or a proper prescription (glasses) isn’t going to need to worry about analyzing a pixelated, low-res object. The human doesn’t have snow falling down on or rain running directly over their eyes to make it more difficult to see. There are hardware limitations to the existing vision cameras.

 

[Joey D]

It is a hardware and intelligence problem. Human drivers don’t face the same challenges presented to the cameras on existing Tesla vehicles. There is no hardware to clear the vision of the cameras. There is a wiper to clear the field of view for the human. A human with good eyesight or a proper prescription (glasses) isn’t going to need to worry about analyzing a pixelated, low-res object. The human doesn’t have snow falling down on or rain running directly over their eyes to make it more difficult to see. There are hardware limitations to the existing vision cameras.

Humans panic, get distracted and can only look in one direction at a time, etc. Glasses fall off, contacts can and do pop out, etc. The same wiper that clears the vision for the human clears it for the front camera.

I understand what you are saying. No one is claiming that the current set-up will operate in 100% of all conditions.

 

[eli_]

If Tesla can create a perfect driving agent that works in every possible situation worldwide and it only breaks down because the camera got covered up I am fine declaring it "mission accomplished". Full autonomy is 100% a software problem. FSD (supervised) is a cool intermediary on the way to full autonomy but we still have a long way to go, nothing today looks close to what a true autonomous car will need to be. Real autonomy will exhibit behaviors that are lightyears beyond anything. It won't just be predicting the next path, it will act like it has real agency, like it has a plan. And the identical software will roam around your house doing cooking and cleaning tasks.

 

[Joey D]

It looks like Tesla is just about done getting the initial FSD (Supervised) Rollout to all eligible vehicles in North America. I consider this the new "baseline." Once that is established, it will be important to see what the pace of revisions / improvements is. That will be the real indicator to determine if we are really at the "beginning of the end"...or if we are at another local maximum.

 

[rlsd]

It looks like Tesla is just about done getting the initial FSD (Supervised) Rollout to all eligible vehicles in North America. I consider this the new "baseline." Once that is established, it will be important to see what the pace of revisions / improvements is. That will be the real indicator to determine if we are really at the "beginning of the end"...or if we are at another local maximum.

Let's hope people can forget the bad feelings of the past.

 

[MOE J]

I want an auto pilot sticker and ummm a chime to tell others I’m not driving.

 

[Ted'sla]

Got a free 30-day trial with yesterday's update, but with the construction on my go-through route (Texas 288) - lane diversions, tractor-trailers, concrete barriers lining the traffic lanes and drugstore cowboys in their F-150s, I rarely use Autosteer. If I use this at all in the next 29 days, it will be coming home from a low-traffic rural location and I'll disengage it when I get to TX-288. When every vehicle uses it and every vehicle communicates with every other vehicle, I'm all-in. Unfortunately, by then, I'll be "all-in" a casket or an urn. Sorry if I'm uninformed, but faith is something I reserve for Him.

 

[MD500_Pilot]

Excellent review. Thanks. I also just received the new V12 and drove it for a short trip of just a few miles in rural/urban traffic. After having free V11 after purchasing our 2023 MYLR last August (our 3rd Tesla) I was not impressed. After my short drive, I'm still not impressed! Unnecessary aggressive acceleration when pulling out onto a highway, moved right into the parking lane approaching a right hand turn with visible stripping, etc. I'll check settings and see if I missed something in my excitement to try it out. And keep trying...

Interesting note on the acceleration: I hated how slow my S would accelerate coming from a stop or light and now I really like it. However, I am in California

 

[B.Ellis]

it’s just “ok” for our commute. It does not recognize the speed changes and wants to go 45 in a 65. Strangely it recognized it fine with basic autopilot. I could see long stretches on the highway but autopilot already does that. Lange changes are choppy and too conservative to pass. It freaks out at the roundabouts but then again so do most around here! I would probably pay a reasonable Amy for the improved graphics and summon.

 

[Roy2001]

I tested FSD a few times in past 3 days. What a joke. I will write a summary. It is at most alpha.

 

[TSLY]

Good review OP. Got a '21 MYLR with USS. FSD 12 is my first foray into FSD. I like to drive myself and rarely even use AP. I was more impressed with FSD than expected but it's only the salt on the peanut. I expected it to make me nervous, which it didn't. That's a plus. But it's still just a preview of what L3-L5 autonomy will offer. Autonomous driving is an all-in, or nothing, proposition, IMO. You either drive a car or the car drives itself! I see no middle ground. People are creatures of habit and I was trained to drive myself. I'm not going to alter ingrained habits over quarter or half measures.

Based on the headwinds Tesla now faces from competition, EV burnout, and model transition, etc, here's what I'd do if I were QELON. After the free trial, offer a one time deal for a very limited period (a month) where Tesla owners can lock in a transferrable $49 a month FSD subscription, that last as long as you own any Tesla. This is the Apple's services/ecosystem model. My hunch is lots of owners (including me perhaps) would purchase FSD, the new subs will be accretive to TSLA's bottom line in the short term, and the FSD recipients will have an incentive to be loyal to Tesla when buying new vehicles in the future. I think the FOMO of this kind of promo could boost TSLA stock, short term.

 

[MrOlatheGuy]

I've read quite a few of comments regarding FSD experiences. I can't say that I've heard anyone share a problem I experienced.

During a test drive just after the trial started, I was on the highway. There was not a lot of traffic. With both hands on the wheel the car decided to drift right in the lane. I held the wheel firmly because I disagreed with the drift effort. FSD decided to disengage. That happened three times in 30 miles of driving.

I'm not sure that I can live with having to turn FSD back on that often when he and I disagree on what I'd say should be trivial things. Why can't the system defer to the driver in such trivial issues. FSD could easily tell that I was not approaching/encroaching the center line.

Maybe I'm too picky. I have a few more days to see if I can warm up to the way it works.

 

[EatsShoots]

Good review, maybe all the free trial drivers have high expectations with no base point to see the change. I received 5 thumbs down for my exuberance but with no words or explanation. 12.3 met my expectations. I make more mistakes than FSD so maybe it’s me but I find many of the reactions here adolescent. I talked a jet pilot into resubscribing to FSD for the 12 update, I’m looking forward to hearing his reactions. He’s on his 4th Tesla, a 21’ Plaid.

This must be hyperbole. I do not believe it for one instant and, if it's true, you shouldn't be driving.

I don't know you but I'd absolutely trust my life to you before FSD.

My first experience with it is this past week. I am very impressed, but it's still got a lot of issues. Even in my 50-100 miles i've noticed that:

• if there is a green left arrow and a red straight, the car is more likely than not to not move forward (as if the red is more important)
• Two-way-but-one-lane bridges and tunnels, of which I have quite a few in my area, are thoroughly beyond its competency. If there are no cars around it's able to do it, but the concept of stopping before the entrance to allow a few other cars through it can't even pretend to understand
• Yesterday it was about to do an unprotected turn that really made me nervous. I hit the throttle and took over. I am still not sure what its intention was but I didn't love it
• when cars are parked on the side of the road and there is no oncoming traffic it doesn't go across the yellow line, away from the parked car, as much as a human
• when we're on a two way road and somebody was turning left it went to the right, over the white line, as a person would have but it barely slowed down and frankly went way too quickly past that car
• when merging onto the highway it will run to the very end of the merge lane, giving no recourse if things go south
• when merging off the highway it tends to merge as soon as it can and turns unnecessarily fast in doing so, which during inclement weather is not super comforting

It does some nice things... like if the highway is empty and others are merging on it will go to the left lane so they can merge properly. I've been using it in rain a bit and although it warns it will be degraded it seems to work fine.

 

[EatsShoots]

I've read quite a few of comments regarding FSD experiences. I can't say that I've heard anyone share a problem I experienced.

During a test drive just after the trial started, I was on the highway. There was not a lot of traffic. With both hands on the wheel the car decided to drift right in the lane. I held the wheel firmly because I disagreed with the drift effort. FSD decided to disengage. That happened three times in 30 miles of driving.

I'm not sure that I can live with having to turn FSD back on that often when he and I disagree on what I'd say should be trivial things. Why can't the system defer to the driver in such trivial issues. FSD could easily tell that I was not approaching/encroaching the center line.

Maybe I'm too picky. I have a few more days to see if I can warm up to the way it works.

Oh yeah, it does this all the time. I have no freaking clue why but it will spend large portions of the time, on perfectly marked roads, so far over to the right that I as the driver am centered as opposed to the car. It knows it's doing it because the graphic on screen shows the car offset.

 

[timberlights]

Oh yeah, it does this all the time. I have no freaking clue why but it will spend large portions of the time, on perfectly marked roads, so far over to the right that I as the driver am centered as opposed to the car. It knows it's doing it because the graphic on screen shows the car offset.

interesting. I have not had this at all

 

[Mikeydeek]

Oh yeah, it does this all the time. I have no freaking clue why but it will spend large portions of the time, on perfectly marked roads, so far over to the right that I as the driver am centered as opposed to the car. It knows it's doing it because the graphic on screen shows the car offset.

I’ve seen it too. Almost driving on the right hand line. But basic autopilot has been much more centred in the lane - sometimes more to the left than I would liked!

 

[arbitrage000]

Oh yeah, it does this all the time. I have no freaking clue why but it will spend large portions of the time, on perfectly marked roads, so far over to the right that I as the driver am centered as opposed to the car. It knows it's doing it because the graphic on screen shows the car offset.

My friend noted this also in his 2019 M3. I went for a short first ride with FSD beta in my brother-in-law's 2019 FSD an without a marking on the side of the road it had one wheel onto the dirt shoulder a lot of the time. However, on my late-2022 MY the car stays much better centered than either of their M3s.
I have read on here to try a camera reset/calibration, make sure they are clean and see if it improves.

The one thing that has really impressed me with FSDBeta is how it scooches for cars and cyclists. On the highways ( I guess this is V11) it does a very natural scooch to the right when someone is passing me and it does a natural scooch to the left when I'm passing someone, especially larger trucks or semis. It also did some very human like avoidance of cyclists on city streets even going as far as half into the oncoming lane when there was no oncoming traffic to give the cyclist room.

I was also impressed yesterday when it used the V12 to navigate a roundabout ( I went left at the intersection) that was currently under construction (and previously was a 2 way stop). The map doesn't have this roundabout yet but the vision figured it out and there are no lane markings on it yet. Pavement only half down.

 

[EatsShoots]

I got to use it on the highway last night. Trick is to use something springy like a surgical mask. Wrap it around the wheel spoke and then hold it in your hand. This way you can be "touching the wheel" and get rid of the annoying nagging (which doesn't otherwise work properly, nor did it on my volvo--problem being when hand is rested on wheel the car often is oblivious to this fact and claims it's not, so you need to exert constant tension on it).

Other than the occasional inexplicable change to the left lane this system does seem to work really well on the highway. If it were $99/month I would pay for that now.

There was once last night a "system failure". FSD disengaged with alarms and a red screen warning, but after a few minutes during which I had no cruise ability at all it came back on.