FSD 12 Has a mind of its own...

[tmruwart]

Yep, I have had Phantom Braking in the past...I can't think of any since V12 though.

I had several on my 733 mile drive from Detroit to Minneapolis last week.

 

[legendsk]

I really haven't had any phantom braking that I can detect while sitting in my carport. But based upon the strange things that flicker on and off on the display, semi trucks, cars, ATVs, traffic safety cones, pedestrians, animals, etc., I suspect that it may be trying to brake for some of them, but since it isn't moving, hard to tell? There is so little traffic through my carport, I guess I don't really care if it has PB fits in there, no harm, no foul.

 

[derotam]

I had several on my 733 mile drive from Detroit to Minneapolis last week.

I am trying to shy away from PB talk because definitions get all over the place especially as time goes on. A LOT has changed with PB since the beginning.

I will say that current "slowdown" issues for me have been related to either imminent lane changes, incorrect(for route) lane changes, or just general not maintaining of the TACC set point(Auto speed adjust NOT engaged). Since v12, I have not had anything that I would classify as a PB event.

The closest thing I have felt to a PB event is the car getting ready to pass another car but then deciding it wants to change into that lane and slowing down abruptly to change lanes behind the other car. That isn't PB though, that is just not planning the lane change correctly. I think the car needs to pre-plan route based lane changes earlier. Speed based lane changes need to be a bit better planned as well.

 

[TunaBug]

Correct. Everything was "expected" behavior up to and including me pushing "End Trip". It was when the car unexpectedly started moving again without my permission. Hence, it made an incorrect assumption that it should keep driving. Think of it this way: what if it were a human driver with you as a passenger that pulled up in front of your house, stopped the car, you mention to the driver "we're here" (i.e. End Trip), but before you get out of the car, the driver just starts driving again and doesn't tell you where it's going and you have no way of asking it where it's going. That's what I would call unexpected or unacceptable or counterintuitive driver behavior.
It could be a "protocol error" of sorts in that I should have pressed the "Park" button after "End Trip". But, IMHO, when I pressed End Trip, FSD should have known that the navigation was complete (because the navigator even announced the I had arrived at my destination). So, at a minimum, the car should not move at all unless I put my foot on the accelerator - just like it said: "press accelerator to continue" or something like that.
Basically, my criteria for this sort of thing is based on a human driver with me as a passenger.

I found this thread while looking info about odd behavior I have seen twice, and perhaps you and I are seeing different aspects of the same thing. I'm in the middle of my 1 month free V12, and I have never used FSD prior to this, so my expectations are all naïve.

Yesterday when leaving work I enabled FSD in the parking lot, then put in a destination after enabling FSD (because may as well start heading out of the parking lot, that's the same regardless of where I'm going). Leaving the lot could have been in two lanes, one left turn only, the other right turn only: the displayed route correctly said we needed to go left, and there was a little nav notification to turn left in 30ft. But after that the car got in the right lane and turned right. After that it re-routed and followed it's route to my destination. Something similar had happened once before, different location, but also setting a nav destination after enabling FSD.

My theory after reading this thread and my experience: perhaps FSD wanders when it has no route, and, I am wondering if the route shown on the nav is not the same as the route used by FSD? Perhaps it tries to be the same, for example copying the existing route when you enable FSD, and occasionally updating. But perhaps they have a bug in some of the scenarios of getting the route from nav to FSD? In my case, I've turned on FSD, perhaps it asked nav for a route, got nothing, so decides to wander; then when I set a route in the nav they forgot to hand that off to FSD. Or perhaps FSD pulls routes from nav and nav has no way to push to FSD?

Why I think this is similar to @tmruwart 's scenario? You didn't say you move the stalk up or tapped the brake to cancel FSD. You described that you used "End Trip". That's a nav thing: you told the nav to stop the route. Similar to my scenario, my guess is FSD is still doing it's thing and lack of input from the nav apparently means "wander like @Max Spaghetti 's dog". When in fact what the nav should have told FSD is "Sit, Stay", or just "Turn off".

I agree that the behavior is unexpected, and I'll add "undesirable".

 

[tmruwart]

I found this thread while looking info about odd behavior I have seen twice, and perhaps you and I are seeing different aspects of the same thing. I'm in the middle of my 1 month free V12, and I have never used FSD prior to this, so my expectations are all naïve.

Yesterday when leaving work I enabled FSD in the parking lot, then put in a destination after enabling FSD (because may as well start heading out of the parking lot, that's the same regardless of where I'm going). Leaving the lot could have been in two lanes, one left turn only, the other right turn only: the displayed route correctly said we needed to go left, and there was a little nav notification to turn left in 30ft. But after that the car got in the right lane and turned right. After that it re-routed and followed it's route to my destination. Something similar had happened once before, different location, but also setting a nav destination after enabling FSD.

My theory after reading this thread and my experience: perhaps FSD wanders when it has no route, and, I am wondering if the route shown on the nav is not the same as the route used by FSD? Perhaps it tries to be the same, for example copying the existing route when you enable FSD, and occasionally updating. But perhaps they have a bug in some of the scenarios of getting the route from nav to FSD? In my case, I've turned on FSD, perhaps it asked nav for a route, got nothing, so decides to wander; then when I set a route in the nav they forgot to hand that off to FSD. Or perhaps FSD pulls routes from nav and nav has no way to push to FSD?

Why I think this is similar to @tmruwart 's scenario? You didn't say you move the stalk up or tapped the brake to cancel FSD. You described that you used "End Trip". That's a nav thing: you told the nav to stop the route. Similar to my scenario, my guess is FSD is still doing it's thing and lack of input from the nav apparently means "wander like @Max Spaghetti 's dog". When in fact what the nav should have told FSD is "Sit, Stay", or just "Turn off".

I agree that the behavior is unexpected, and I'll add "undesirable".

The scenario you described where the Nav says one thing and FSD does something different is what I refer to as "Spouse Mode". I have noticed that behavior on several occasions. In fact, to add to my Unexpected Behavior where FSD just starts driving with no specific destination, as FSD was totteling down the street, I thought I could get it to turn left or right down a side street enroute to NeverNever Land by simply signaling a left or right turn. But Nooooooo, FSD just turned off the turn signal ignoring my request. So then I touched "Navigate" and "Home". Only then did FSD start driving to a known location.
Thus, FSD will ignore me and listen to the Nav unit (my sister calls it her Navi-Bitch) most but not all the time.
I have a growing list of FSD errors but this unexpected behavior thing is the most interesting.

 

[derotam]

I found this thread while looking info about odd behavior I have seen twice, and perhaps you and I are seeing different aspects of the same thing. I'm in the middle of my 1 month free V12, and I have never used FSD prior to this, so my expectations are all naïve.

Yesterday when leaving work I enabled FSD in the parking lot, then put in a destination after enabling FSD (because may as well start heading out of the parking lot, that's the same regardless of where I'm going). Leaving the lot could have been in two lanes, one left turn only, the other right turn only: the displayed route correctly said we needed to go left, and there was a little nav notification to turn left in 30ft. But after that the car got in the right lane and turned right. After that it re-routed and followed it's route to my destination. Something similar had happened once before, different location, but also setting a nav destination after enabling FSD.

My theory after reading this thread and my experience: perhaps FSD wanders when it has no route, and, I am wondering if the route shown on the nav is not the same as the route used by FSD? Perhaps it tries to be the same, for example copying the existing route when you enable FSD, and occasionally updating. But perhaps they have a bug in some of the scenarios of getting the route from nav to FSD? In my case, I've turned on FSD, perhaps it asked nav for a route, got nothing, so decides to wander; then when I set a route in the nav they forgot to hand that off to FSD. Or perhaps FSD pulls routes from nav and nav has no way to push to FSD?

Why I think this is similar to @tmruwart 's scenario? You didn't say you move the stalk up or tapped the brake to cancel FSD. You described that you used "End Trip". That's a nav thing: you told the nav to stop the route. Similar to my scenario, my guess is FSD is still doing it's thing and lack of input from the nav apparently means "wander like @Max Spaghetti 's dog". When in fact what the nav should have told FSD is "Sit, Stay", or just "Turn off".

I agree that the behavior is unexpected, and I'll add "undesirable".

So FSD by itself(no navigation) is making short term decisions and that route has nothing to do with any navigation route. When you put in a navigation route, the car basically MUST follow it, so when FSD goes and decides to start making a decision it is going to have to check with the route and make sure the decision matches with the navigation route, if not, then the navigation route decision will win. You are right that without any data to show otherwise, FSD by itself wanders, though not as much as it just keeps going straight until it has to turn and then it mostly tries to turn right.

Watch out with the navigation...There is a setting for the car to change the route if an alternate is X minutes(setting) faster than current route. It will ignore this setting a lot of the times and just change routes to a faster route even if it is less than the setting time limit. Also, there is a feature to recheck routes without ending the current route...this is flawed too as you can do that, change the route, hit done...and then it reverts to a different route completely.

Have fun with the FSD, the biggest thing in the begging of using it is learning HOW it behaves and dealing with the quirks....or just stop using it and never think about using it again because you will always be disappointed at that point.

The scenario you described where the Nav says one thing and FSD does something different is what I refer to as "Spouse Mode". I have noticed that behavior on several occasions. In fact, to add to my Unexpected Behavior where FSD just starts driving with no specific destination, as FSD was totteling down the street, I thought I could get it to turn left or right down a side street enroute to NeverNever Land by simply signaling a left or right turn. But Nooooooo, FSD just turned off the turn signal ignoring my request. So then I touched "Navigate" and "Home". Only then did FSD start driving to a known location.
Thus, FSD will ignore me and listen to the Nav unit (my sister calls it her Navi-Bitch) most but not all the time.
I have a growing list of FSD errors but this unexpected behavior thing is the most interesting.

FSD driving with no destination is absolutely expected behavior. I do agree that if the user initiates the turn signal that the car should account for that in its decision making process. I have tried to make the car do a certain turn at an intersection as well and have seen the same issue.

 

[tmruwart]

So FSD by itself(no navigation) is making short term decisions and that route has nothing to do with any navigation route. When you put in a navigation route, the car basically MUST follow it, so when FSD goes and decides to start making a decision it is going to have to check with the route and make sure the decision matches with the navigation route, if not, then the navigation route decision will win. You are right that without any data to show otherwise, FSD by itself wanders, though not as much as it just keeps going straight until it has to turn and then it mostly tries to turn right.

Agreed. I find it interesting that FSD makes minor route changes along the way and I view that behavior as a feature, not a problem.

Have fun with the FSD, the biggest thing in the begging of using it is learning HOW it behaves and dealing with the quirks....or just stop using it and never think about using it again because you will always be disappointed at that point.

Yes, I am most certainly having fun with this as robotics [and now AI] has been one of my life-long passions since I was about 5 years old (in 1963). I really like and appreciate your view on this: "...learning HOW it behaves..." because it is absolutely fascinating to observe FSD in action. I provide feedback as much as possible to Tesla and I post my experiences here to get an idea of what others, such as yourself, think about my experiences. So, thankyou for your comments!