FSD 12 perspective from a previous skeptic

My prior foray into FSD Beta was documented here: Thoughts from a first time FSD Beta User: HW4.

TLDR for that take: Highway drives = Good, "around town" (suburban and rural driving), long way to go. That was version 11.4.4.

I received software update 2024.3.6 (FSD 12.3.2.1) and the free month trial yesterday, I drove around for about 6 hours on mostly suburban roads plus some highway miles. TLDR for this version: I am pretty blown away. All of the talk about "much more human like driving" is accurate IMO. It passed the wife test. Of the few actual disengagements I had, only one was what I would say is not a "corner case". That being said...the one constant (still) issue...the one thing that is not "natural" feeling, is how it handles unprotected turns. To get it to fee "natural" I am constantly pressing the accelerator to push it through and commit sooner than it would otherwise.

On to the details:

I drive a 2023 Model S, HW 4, Non USS. Northern NJ driving. My drives used the "auto speed" mode set in the "normal" position. Note: Elon had made a tweet recently that FSD 12 does not utilize HW4 performance: it runs HW4 in "HW3 emulation mode", which ultimately means that for now, HW4 performance will actually lag that of HW3. This will continue to be the case until Tesla provides specific support for HW4 (whatever that entails....specific training, recompiling, etc.).

I am the kind of person that would roll his eyes every time Whole Mars Blog made another X post about his latest "zero disengagement drive" seemingly every day for the past 2 years. That has just not been anything closely resembling my experience. I don't see a need for FSD myself as I enjoy driving locally. I do appreciate FSD on the highway for long road trips. This is why I purchased Advanced Autopilot on my S, but not FSD. So after my original FSD trial expired this past Dec, I have not used it since. It was potentially more nerve wracking using it than not.

I do have an investment in Tesla, so I keep tabs on FSD progress, and the best way is to try out the new beta for myself as a consumer, and of course the new 30 day free trial provides that opportunity.

Overall impressions: Night and day difference from the past version. No "herky jerky wheel spasm movements." No "what the hell is this car thinking" moments. The best way I could describe it in one sentence: "Imagine if you are a driving instructor, teaching a 30 year old driver who has had a handful of lessons to date." What I mean by that is you have a good level of base confidence in how it's going to drive...the driver may be more tentative in situations where a more experienced driver would not...and while you pay extra attention when you see "novel conditions" on the road, you are more often surprised vs. disappointed at how those situations are handled.

Over my several hours of driving (mostly suburban roads), these were my only disengagements:
1) On a narrow road, car did not see a (I assume fallen) "branch" sticking out of a hedge at about headlight height. If I did not disengage to avoid it, it may have been sticking out into the road enough to hit / scratch the car.
2) On a two way street downtown...a car two ahead of mine stopped to parallel park. The car directly ahead of me stopped to wait. My car stopped for a couple seconds, then appeared to start to want to go around. (In some cases, it may be appropriate to go around...like if a car is double parked, but not this one.)
3) Car was approaching an intersection and deciding "which lane" to go in. It appeared to still be indecisive as it was approaching the car in front. Just as I was about to manually hit the brake to stop, the tesla stopped itself using Emergency Braking. This is actually good to know: that Tesla's emergency safety features are always at work no matter who is driving (you or FSD).
4) Before crossing a one lane bridge, my direction is supposed to yield to on-coming traffic. I did not feel the car was slowing enough to yield to an oncoming car, so I stopped it myself.

I did have one disengagement on the highway. (I believe the highway stack is using FSD 11.x....but someone would need to confirm.) FYI...You can tell for sure when you are diving on the Highway stack vs. FSD 12 stack, because when driving on the highway stack you no longer have "auto speed" indicator, but the original "set speed" options. The highway disengagement was for making a turn onto an exit ramp so aggressively that made me uncomfortable enough to not trust it was going to correct in time.

That's it.

Even the "auto speed" worked fairly well. YEs, there were times when I would have driven a few MPH faster, but overall very good and comfortable. I do know that I tend to drive faster than most.

The one, still consistent, issue on FSD is the unprotected turns. I am constantly...constantly having the push the car through unprotected intersections with the accelerator because I can see that it is clear to go...and the car is just creeping. Mind you, it is steering fine (no freaky wheel spasms)...it's motion is smooth (no stop-start-stop-start)....it really feels like a first time driver that you just need to ensure it "yes...it's really OK to go now...GO!".

I still think that one reason for this is still NHTSA's insistence on certain behavior "at stop signs." The car stops much, much too soon at intersections....then it starts to creep forward. 75% of the time when it comes to the first stop...there is no visibility (for me, and presumably the car).

This is not how people actually drive naturally, and this is behavior that I hope Tesla can lobby NHTSA to relax on.

In sum: I am now very bullish on FSD...where if you asked me 4 months ago I would say "they are a long way away." Other than the stop-sign / unprotected turn behavior, I really feel that they are now legitimately in the "chase the 9s" (address corner case) era. Kudos to the FSD team at Tesla!

For anyone else taking advantage of FSD...I encourage you to:
1) Of course, always stay alert. Don't be complacent.
2) Once you get a feel for how FSD generally behaves, make sure you
a) Always disengage when you are uncomfortable. Don't "try" and "force" zero disengagement drives. The only way to feedback improvements to Tesla is to disengage in these situations where it is appropriate.
b) Likewise, use the accelerator pedal to push though intersections / situations where you would do so if driving manually. DON'T think "I'll just see if it eventually makes it through." Again, the way we will help out training, is to provide feedback that is consistent with how you would actually drive.

"I'm probably not driving" by Edsel L is licensed under CC BY-SA 2.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[phxazcraig]

I got to use it on the highway last night. Trick is to use something springy like a surgical mask. Wrap it around the wheel spoke and then hold it in your hand. This way you can be "touching the wheel" and get rid of the annoying nagging (which doesn't otherwise work properly, nor did it on my volvo--problem being when hand is rested on wheel the car often is oblivious to this fact and claims it's not, so you need to exert constant tension on it).

Other than the occasional inexplicable change to the left lane this system does seem to work really well on the highway. If it were $99/month I would pay for that now.

There was once last night a "system failure". FSD disengaged with alarms and a red screen warning, but after a few minutes during which I had no cruise ability at all it came back on.

I have had exactly what you describe - system failure with alarms and red screen. Totally out of the blue as I was halfway through a drive I use to test FSD. I was on the freeway (11.4.9 in effect) when everything shut down. Nobody was around me, and I was doing about 75 in a 75. After a few seconds I tried FSD again and it was unavailable. Waited 2-3 miles and tried again, still on the freeway, and it started back up like nothing was wrong. No warnings since. I'm not sure if I can pull the warning up somewhere in the car's history, but I'd like to read that warning again.

On the wheel nags, I just rest one hand on the wheel with a slight downward tug and forget about it. I do take my hands completely off for tight turns (which is when I get nagged - Tesla, no nags in the middle of a turn!)

Inexplicable lane changes - yep. Really odd. Another really odd (non-humanlike) behavior is to do that to get behind another car at a stop light when the lane you were in is open!

The worst lane holding behavior I typically see is when there is a curve with more than one lane to choose. I'm thinking maybe the car tends to try to choose the inside lane without considering other factors much.

 

[MrOlatheGuy]

I was using FSD on my morning trip to a luncheon today. It came upon a 4-way light intersection, dual lanes each way. The light turned yellow when I was about 50 to 75 feet from the intersection. The car hit the brakes hard, but as it got to the intersection the brakes released a bit and it allowed me to drift into the middle of the intersection going about 5 to 10mph. And with the yellow light about to turn red, I punched the foot feed to clear the intersection before I got broad sided. I was not comfortable at all during that maneuver. I do not recall of it disengaged itself during this maneuver or if I turned it off myself.

I think I was lucky that no one was behind me at the time. No telling how they would have fared with the hard braking the car performed.

 

[phxazcraig]

It struck me today that I'm generally not using FSD when driving with the wife. And she's not going want FSD until it can drive BETTER than me, else why would she want it (as a passenger)? I like using it when I'm by myself, but it's a lot for the novelty of it. There are times though when I do think it's a better driver than me, like during a phone call, or perhaps late at night, or any time I'm sleepy. But overall, it actually needs to exceed my driving ability while maintaining a predictable driving experience.

 

[SkyDog]

Oh yeah, it does this all the time. I have no freaking clue why but it will spend large portions of the time, on perfectly marked roads, so far over to the right that I as the driver am centered as opposed to the car. It knows it's doing it because the graphic on screen shows the car offset.

When going around curves, FSD seems to hug the inside line of the curve too much. With standard AP, it seemed to hug the outside line of the curve, i.e. the center line.

Yesterday when driving on a fairly straight road, my car drifted over the center double yellow line for some reason. The display showed that it was doing that. Maybe it thought there was some obstacle in the road, but there was clearly nothing there.

 

[DuncanM]

Four days and 2200+ miles with FSDS (Portal AZ to Morro Bay CA to Ferndale WA). I received FSDS on April 1. I had some previous experience with FSD 11.4.X via a friend's MY.

Overall: FSDS was very helpful but occasionally very annoying. It never felt unsafe but I have to admit that using it made me pay attention!

Things that I didn't like:
Unneeded/unwanted lane changes that sometimes refused to cancel via using the opposite turn signal. When FSDS decides to change lanes it does so safely and promptly but often inappropriately, such as moving into the right lane with slower moving traffic and/or a on-ramp just ahead. Mostly I can cancel the lane change with a flick of the left turn signal but sometimes it forces me to use the wheel which then disengages FSDS and then will brake rapidly via regen unless I have my foot on the accelerator. I am getting too old to always do this in a well coordinated maneuver...

Using the signals to force a lane change: FSDS is too slow to respond and will sometimes decide to change back into the previous lane!. This is annoying to say the least.

Sometimes it hesitates to drive through an intersection, but generally it hesitated appropriately and I could safely force it through with the accelerator, with no disengagement.

We ran into very heavy rains and then FSDS would continually warn about degraded performance and would gradually reduce maximum cruise speed and occasional disengage. Fortunately I set up another driver profile without FSDS and could then switch, on the fly, into that profile and retain at least TACC even with very heavy rain.

FSDS sometimes drifted out of the lane (or nearly so) when going around corners, when AP would have remained dead centre. On winding mtn rds this was a bit stressful when a big rig was driving the other way around the same corner... My only recourse was to use the wheel, forcing a disengagement, and the need to use the accelerator to maintain speed.

Things I liked:

It's ability to pick the correct lane for upcoming on/off ramps and to drive us to unfamiliar places in unfamiliar and poorly designed urban environments. It handles roundabouts quite well.

It's ability to constantly monitor the surrounding traffic for threats and slow moving vehicles and pedestrians. In 'chill' mode it seems to keep a safe following distance even at ~80+ mph.

Overall, I found FSDS to be useful and I would keep it if Elon gave it to me. I would probably pay something for it, but nothing like the current prices.

 

[EatsShoots]

I have had exactly what you describe - system failure with alarms and red screen. Totally out of the blue as I was halfway through a drive I use to test FSD. I was on the freeway (11.4.9 in effect) when everything shut down. Nobody was around me, and I was doing about 75 in a 75. After a few seconds I tried FSD again and it was unavailable. Waited 2-3 miles and tried again, still on the freeway, and it started back up like nothing was wrong. No warnings since. I'm not sure if I can pull the warning up somewhere in the car's history, but I'd like to read that warning again.

On the wheel nags, I just rest one hand on the wheel with a slight downward tug and forget about it. I do take my hands completely off for tight turns (which is when I get nagged - Tesla, no nags in the middle of a turn!)

Inexplicable lane changes - yep. Really odd. Another really odd (non-humanlike) behavior is to do that to get behind another car at a stop light when the lane you were in is open!

The worst lane holding behavior I typically see is when there is a curve with more than one lane to choose. I'm thinking maybe the car tends to try to choose the inside lane without considering other factors much.

I've definitely had some strange behavior in mine. I can say that i've not yet had a single drive where it doesn't exhibit some behavior that a human would not do (this is possible without a disengagement), so I continue to maintain Tesla is years away from a solution here, even though I would be willing to pay for it now. It's awesome if you want to eat fast food while driving, seems to be great on the highway, etc.

I've noticed if a light is yellow it will brake quickly, although I got a yellow the other day at the last minute it and it briefly blipped the brakes, then decided to go ahead anyway--which weirdly is exactly what a human would have done in the same scenario.

I can confidently say now that FSD is better than a significantly drunk driver. I don't say that s a joke. I do not drink, but I bet there are people who are already using it to get home while drunk and it's quite possibly saved lives already in such situations.

 

[phxazcraig]

I've definitely had some strange behavior in mine. I can say that i've not yet had a single drive where it doesn't exhibit some behavior that a human would not do (this is possible without a disengagement), so I continue to maintain Tesla is years away from a solution here, even though I would be willing to pay for it now. It's awesome if you want to eat fast food while driving, seems to be great on the highway, etc.

I've noticed if a light is yellow it will brake quickly, although I got a yellow the other day at the last minute it and it briefly blipped the brakes, then decided to go ahead anyway--which weirdly is exactly what a human would have done in the same scenario.

I can confidently say now that FSD is better than a significantly drunk driver. I don't say that s a joke. I do not drink, but I bet there are people who are already using it to get home while drunk and it's quite possibly saved lives already in such situations.

To be accurate, I see FSD do lots of things I wouldn't do, and some things a human typically would not do. But mostly not dangerous. More like proper lane selection, and of course the stop sign behavior. The warning/failure I had occurred only once, though recently. I have about 8900 miles on the car now.

On the freeway, it definitely drives better than I do while trying to take a phone call. Saw that today.

I don't use FSD like a robotaxi. I use FSD as a driver's aid, basically letting it do the boring stuff. I'm currently working around problem behavior - like today in the HOV lane. I have had numerous instances where 11.4.9 would not get into nor out of the HOV lane. I have the HOV access option enabled, and sometimes it does get out of the HOV lane. But usually it ignores a turn signal to get out of (or into) the HOV lane, whether that was manually-applied or via the Nav. So I just anticipate it won't work when I want to go around a slower HOV driver and put it into manual. I got into quite the rush hour traffic on the the 101 in Scottsdale today, and there's another place I think FSD does a better job than me, though I hate it leaving so much space in front. I use foot prods a lot in FSD.

 

[sfRonH]

I started my free trial on April 1. After my first drive, I thought it was a joke, but on later days, I changed my mind. I live in San Francisco, which has very trick local roads. In the city the car had some problems, but when I took a freeway trip, it did better.

Some of the problems:
1. On freeway, there was a fork, and the NAV system indicated that our correct route was left. The car was in a lane that could go either way, and picked the wrong way. It started going right, so I took over in time.
2. A couple of times at an exit ramp, or within the city, when two lanes were going in my route's direction, it seemed undecided about which lane to pick. Once it moved half over to the right then back to the left. A bit unnerving. I was watching like a hawk and saw no reason to abort the original lane change.
3. stop signs: same as others have said. But, I mostly give the car credit. The way I was taught to drive (in the 1970's in NY state): stop before the crosswalk or the stop line. Then inch forward until you can see if it's safe to go. This can try my patience, but in theory, it's correct. But, at times the Tesla feels TOO conservative, stopping too far back, a few feet before the stop line. Sometimes it takes off at a good speed after the stop, sometimes not.
4. In traffic in the city, the car doesn't pull up close enough to stopped cars. When there is a lot of traffic, it's best to be efficient with use of the roadway. Meaning, for example, if you are entering a short left turn lane, pull all the way up near the car in front of you, so as many cars as possible can wait in the left turn lane reducing the odds of cars queuing up and waiting in the straight lane. The Tesla sometimes leaves nearly a whole car's length of dead space. I remedy that with the accelerator, and sometimes it screams at me.
5. When there is an obstacle, a parked car or truck protruding into my lane, sometimes the car is fine, and at other times it is way too slow, so I take control.
6. In hilly San Francisco it will choose routes that go up a lot of hills then come down them. Most drivers will minimize that unless it's a major road cuts over the hills, which is rare in SF.

Overall, I think it's way better than I had expected. I am liking it more on the freeway, and more on routes that I don't know well. On routes I drive frequently, I know the best ways and anticipate problems that the car does not do.

 

[blackT3$!@]

Love v12. The one thing I don't like is lack of turn signals on roundabouts. V11 was smooth and did all the signaling. Now it's even more smooth and confident, but no longer does any signals. I guess in the training data people don't signal in roundabouts.

For me, v12 signals in my neighborhood roundabout 50% of the time.

 

[blackT3$!@]

2021 M3LR AWD with Supervised FSD v12. First time using it and I am actually impressed. This works better than Autopilot with no phantom braking and better dynamic lane centering. I have used it on 70 mph freeways and 2 lane 55mph highways. I have disengaged mostly when approaching construction zones, unprotected left turns and when letting cross traffic enter the travel lane as FSD doesn't make a decision to allow the motorist to enter traffic. I don't think it is worth $12k or $199 per month, but I would pay $25 per month for it. My wife is the primary driver and would never use it anyhow, she doesn't even use TACC.

 

[KerrySkates]

I don't think it is worth $12k or $199 per month, but I would pay $25 per month for it. My wife is the primary driver and would never use it anyhow, she doesn't even use TACC.

The price is why the majority of people don’t even bother. There’s enough skepticism to make a $200/month or $12k-to-“own” purchase unjustified. A demo drive and a free month isn’t going to change that perspective.

$200/month for 5 years = $12k. The least Tesla could do is say it’s a rent-to-buy situation where a single owner will get to keep FSD once they’ve completed 60 monthly payments. If they sell the car, then the next owner would start from 0.

It would be better to lower the monthly cost. Some people would be encouraged to try it. Some people would use it specifically for long trips. Some people would use it to “show off” their car. $25-50/month seems reasonable.

Are there stats for how many of the purchased fleet fully ”own” FSD? Seems to me that the ratio would be low at the current price as only the most dedicated Tesla fans will spend that extra cash.

Whether or not the stats are low for ownership, it seems that having more cars using FSD and collecting more data would help improve the model for even more locations and even more situations. They’re not going to incentivize people without giving them a lower-cost point of entry.

edit: found this article from last year https://insideevs.com/news/629094/tesla-how-many-buy-fsd/amp/

…285,000 customers in North America have purchased FSD….

Tesla has sold 1.5 million vehicles in North America, meaning roughly 19% of customers opted for FSD…

 

[nate704]

FSD 12 has been somewhat better than before, BUT it keeps failing to reach the set speed all the time even during the day time, straight road with no traffic around.

 

[gx9901]

I rented FSD for a couple of months last year and thought it sucked, being kind of annoying on a semi-busy highway and nearly unusable in the city. I've used V12 for two days now, and I am fairly impressed so far. The car's driving action seem far more natural than before, and I think I've already completed more drives using V12 without having to disengage in two days than 2 months with V11. It took almost all roundabouts I went through like a champ (there are a lot of them in my city), even with cars around, something V11 could barely do with no cars around.

I'm sure there will be issues as I use it the rest of the month (in fact, just as I was thinking it was pretty awesome doing roundabouts last night, it nearly drove into a divider entering while entering a roundabout), but I can definitely see improvements compared what I experienced last year and am fairly impressed so far. Still, unless I come into some unexpected millions, I don't think I'll ever pay $12k for it unless it can be used as I take a nap or summon it to pick me up at the airport.

 

[point Wheels]

The Chevy Bolt rear cameras have a nice feature of a sprayer and a spinning outer lens to clear the view.

 

[EatsShoots]

The Chevy Bolt rear cameras have a nice feature of a sprayer and a spinning outer lens to clear the view.

I've thought about this for a decade and to this day still do not understand why this is not more common. Nissan also had a sprayer for a camera lens (at least a patent I think) many, many years ago.

As for FSD my wife used it for first time yesterday on an hourlong drive. Said it was cool, but disabled it as soon as she got to work. The auto lane changing is not, in her opinion, safe, and it also multiple times drove on or past the white line of the right lane on the highway.

I'm still very confident it will be a minimum of years before these cars are autonomous/robotaxi level. It's getting there, but has a loooong way to go. I'd still personally pay a monthly cost for it, though not $199.

 

[nate704]

I also noticed the FSD bounces left and right within the lane more than before.

 

[MrOlatheGuy]

I also noticed the FSD bounces left and right within the lane more than before.

I was wondering about something like that too. It seemed to me that the car kept correcting back and forth between 1 and 3 seconds at a time. It felt like I was a ball in a channel and I was bouncing off the walls trying to keep centered. Maybe I imagined that.

 

[lencap]

Interesting thread. I bought a Tesla for many reasons, and they impact how I’ll view my ownership over the coming years. My perspective isn’t unique, but as a senior citizen it may differ from others.

My primary reason for buying my Tesla 3 in 2018 is the SuperCharger network. Without that I’d like still be driving an ICE vehicle. I had a Nissan Leaf, 2 BMW I3s (BEV/ReX), Chevy Bolt prior to Tesla Y and range anxiety was real. Six years later the SuperCharger network remains as Tesla’s best feature (at least to me). My night vision is less acute than years ago and my reaction time is slower. Having a vehicle that has the potential to handle routine driving as I age, and continually improving these features over time, is the second major reason for choosing Tesla.

I’m not interested in turning my car into an unmanned UBER generating income, but rather as a quasi safety net in case of medical emergency. Knowing that, eventually, my car will be Level 3 capable of taking over control, or bring me to an ER on demand is comforting.

I didn’t expect these things to be accomplished quickly, but it seemed to me that Tesla’s approach was unique, and had the possibility of reaching some degree of self driving more quickly than others. As such, I’m patient and do find that the 12.3.3 FSD test drive has suggested that Tesla is on the right path. Time will tell.

On the other hand, if the lack of USS, LiDAR and other tools eventually limits Tesla’s FSD to less effective driving than competing brands, I’ll likely reconsider ownership, and find a better alternative.

My point is simply this - I bought my Tesla with my eyes wide open. I realized the difficulty of achieving what Elon set out to do, and expected it to take at least a decade to work out. So far that estimate seems on track. I try not to get too worked up over the intermediate steps along the way. I look toward the final objective - a FSD system with Level 4 or better certification, capable enough to ensure my ability to remain independent and capable of driving where/when I want as I age. Ideally, Tesla will also close the gap between it and the top European/Japanese car manufacturers along the way in terms of comfort, build quality, customer service and the like.

 

[DuncanM]

We just finished a ~30 mile/50km drive in the rain and the car drove us to our destination with no interventions except for me choosing a slightly alternate route for part of the drive. The car negotiated 4 roundabouts and multiple intersections and lane changes.

 

[dachshund]

I'm another senior citizen hoping the FSD will help with night driving, reaction time. I have a 2023 MY, camera-only, and ordered FSD with the car because my neighbors said it was useful. Last year it still wasn't reliable enough and was nervous making.

To me this is a huge benefit: he cameras detect pedestrians before I can see them. There are a lot of distractions on the road and it's a challenge to see pedestrians coming from both sides. I really like the cautious approach around pedestrians.

It took a while to get used to the autosteer and get comfortable with it. Now it's kind of a relief. I wish they'd make up their minds about steering wheel nags.

Now that I'm using FSD, I wish I could convince it to take my preferred routes. I prefer to take the scenic route!

It does stress me out when a freeway exit is approaching and it's still in the wrong lane. They need a selection for "change lanes sooner."