FSD 12 Has a mind of its own...

[tmruwart]

Here's an FSD 12 behavior I have not heard about yet so please tell me if any of you have experienced this.
I left from my house and navigated¹ to Point A about 1 mile away using FSD - no problems. From there I navigated to Point B about 5 miles from Point A, again, all under FSD control - only one disengagement when it tried to make a U turn without enough space to clear the curb. No worries - I completed the U turn and resumed FSD. I then navigated from Point B to my home about 4 miles from Point B on FSD with no problems.
Here's where it gets interesting. FSD parked in front of my house, I touched "End Trip", and after a couple seconds, FSD decides to start driving again for no apparent reason! There was no destination set so I had no idea WHERE it thought it was going. This has happened twice - the first time I disengaged immediately. But the second time I just let FSD drive even though I had no idea where it was going. I thought maybe it would revisit a previous destination but no, it just drove - obeying traffic laws and all that but it went down streets I had never taken it. I let it go for about 7 miles then I decided to disengage and had it navigate back home. Like I said, this is a reproducible behavior. I am going to do it again but record the drive and let it complete its joy ride to see where I end up.
Incidentally, I live in Minnesota and it was heading south so maybe it wanted to visit Giga Texas? Stay tuned...

¹when I say "navigate", it means I am entering a destination into the navigation system so that FSD knows where to go.

 

[jeewee3000]

Here's an FSD 12 behavior I have not heard about yet so please tell me if any of you have experienced this.
I left from my house and navigated¹ to Point A about 1 mile away using FSD - no problems. From there I navigated to Point B about 5 miles from Point A, again, all under FSD control - only one disengagement when it tried to make a U turn without enough space to clear the curb. No worries - I completed the U turn and resumed FSD. I then navigated from Point B to my home about 4 miles from Point B on FSD with no problems.
Here's where it gets interesting. FSD parked in front of my house, I touched "End Trip", and after a couple seconds, FSD decides to start driving again for no apparent reason! There was no destination set so I had no idea WHERE it thought it was going. This has happened twice - the first time I disengaged immediately. But the second time I just let FSD drive even though I had no idea where it was going. I thought maybe it would revisit a previous destination but no, it just drove - obeying traffic laws and all that but it went down streets I had never taken it. I let it go for about 7 miles then I decided to disengage and had it navigate back home. Like I said, this is a reproducible behavior. I am going to do it again but record the drive and let it complete its joy ride to see where I end up.
Incidentally, I live in Minnesota and it was heading south so maybe it wanted to visit Giga Texas? Stay tuned...

¹when I say "navigate", it means I am entering a destination into the navigation system so that FSD knows where to go.

Does FSD-without-navigation just drive straight (when possible)? (Like Autopilot)

Or does it take left turns, right turns, etc, seemingly at random?

 

[tmruwart]

Does FSD-without-navigation just drive straight (when possible)? (Like Autopilot)

Or does it take left turns, right turns, etc, seemingly at random?

The later - it seemed to have a destination in mind. More precisely, it proceeded down my street to a T. To the right was a dead end. So it turned left and drove one block to another T. Either left or right would have been fine. But it turned on the right blinker well before we got to the intersection so it seemed to know where it wanted to go. We proceeded down that street to another T intersection. Again, it knew it wanted to turn right at that intersection. Once we got on that street, it drove for about 6 miles before I disengaged.

 

[derotam]

I believe this is current expected behavior. When I get home(with navigation) there is a message that pops up telling me to press on the accelerator to continue. Based on what you are saying I will assume that cancelling/ending the trip is basically telling the car to just keep going.

I don't think it has a destination in mind though, and it defaults to right turns as other people have noted.

 

[Max Spaghetti]

My dog exhibits similar behaviour.

 

[RTPEV]

It does not have a specific destination in mind. You have always been able to use FSD without a destination entered, in which case it will basically just try to go as straight as possible, and if it comes to a T, it will (usually) take a right (I suppose at a slant T it might go in the direction that is most straight). I thought it would always take a right, but your experience with the dead end is an interesting one--it must have detected that in its map and decided to go left instead. Maybe you can call this a "mind of its own", but it's a very simple mind.

 

[MY1stEV]

When I get home(with navigation) there is a message that pops up telling me to press on the accelerator to continue.

I get the same message about 2 houses down before I arrive at my home. Yesterday, out of curiosity, I turned on the turn signal just before my driveway and it turned into my driveway and stopped. Now it just needs to learn how to park in the garage.

 

[arichard2401]

I get the same message about 2 houses down before I arrive at my home. Yesterday, out of curiosity, I turned on the turn signal just before my driveway and it turned into my driveway and stopped. Now it just needs to learn how to park in the garage.

You could probably paint some wine lines in your garage to make it look like a parking spot and use autopark. Or do the same thing with white duct tape.

 

[tmruwart]

I believe this is current expected behavior. When I get home(with navigation) there is a message that pops up telling me to press on the accelerator to continue. Based on what you are saying I will assume that cancelling/ending the trip is basically telling the car to just keep going.

I don't think it has a destination in mind though, and it defaults to right turns as other people have noted.

 

[tmruwart]

Even though it may be an "expected" behavior, IMHO it is not an "acceptable" behavior. At a minimum the car should stop at the destination and park its little behind right there until you tell it to go someplace else.. it should not initiate driving IMHO. If it does, the least it could do is tell you where it thinks it is going. In other words, FSD should never do anything without telling you why or asking or, for shifts sake, tell me why you did something. I have a list of unexpected or unexplained FSD behaviors. High on that list is when FSD is totteling down the freeway at 70MPH and all of a sudden, without warning and for no apparent reason, FSD drops to 35MPH in a panic! Good thing nobody was behind me each time it has done this. I just hit the accelerator and it pops right back to 70MPH and is fine.... for a while.
Maybe there is a conversation topic called Unexpected FSD Behavior. We should make a list. And send it to the nice robots at Tesla.

 

[RTPEV]

Even though it may be an "expected" behavior, IMHO it is not an "acceptable" behavior. At a minimum the car should stop at the destination and park its little behind right there until you tell it to go someplace else.. it should not initiate driving IMHO. If it does, the least it could do is tell you where it thinks it is going. In other words, FSD should never do anything without telling you why or asking or, for shifts sake, tell me why you did something. I have a list of unexpected or unexplained FSD behaviors. High on that list is when FSD is totteling down the freeway at 70MPH and all of a sudden, without warning and for no apparent reason, FSD drops to 35MPH in a panic! Good thing nobody was behind me each time it has done this. I just hit the accelerator and it pops right back to 70MPH and is fine.... for a while.
Maybe there is a conversation topic called Unexpected FSD Behavior. We should make a list. And send it to the nice robots at Tesla.

I think your expectations (or understanding of what FSD is) are incorrect.

Despite the acronym, FSD is not Full Self Driving. It is a driver assistance aid (the level of assistance it provides is debatable). It's behavior is not limited to driving from point A to point B, even semi-autonomously. Yes, if you do input a destination, it will take whatever turns are necessary to reach that destination. But it can also be used without a destination programmed in. In fact, this is the way I use it most of the time. When I am driving locally and get on the highway, or even a long boring surface street that I'm going to be on for awhile, I'll engage FSD to perform autosteer and TACC, and I expect it to just continue straight until I disengage because I want to take an exit or turn. I'm not going to bother with putting a destination in most of the time because I know where I am going and how to get there. So not only is this behavior expected, but it's actually preferred to the alternative (in which case I have to tell the car where it's going every time I want to use FSD).

 

[derotam]

Even though it may be an "expected" behavior, IMHO it is not an "acceptable" behavior. At a minimum the car should stop at the destination and park its little behind right there until you tell it to go someplace else.. it should not initiate driving IMHO. If it does, the least it could do is tell you where it thinks it is going. In other words, FSD should never do anything without telling you why or asking or, for shifts sake, tell me why you did something. I have a list of unexpected or unexplained FSD behaviors. High on that list is when FSD is totteling down the freeway at 70MPH and all of a sudden, without warning and for no apparent reason, FSD drops to 35MPH in a panic! Good thing nobody was behind me each time it has done this. I just hit the accelerator and it pops right back to 70MPH and is fine.... for a while.
Maybe there is a conversation topic called Unexpected FSD Behavior. We should make a list. And send it to the nice robots at Tesla.

Just to clarify based on OP's statements... The OP said that it DID park(well probably HOLD actually). So that at least partially fits your minimum standard. The other part is "until you tell it to go someplace else". That arguably WAS commanded by the action of ending the navigational route but not disengaging FSD.

 

[jabloomf1230]

Basically, when navigation reaches the destination, FSD should be manually disengaged.

I'd have to go out the car and check it, but if FSD is enabled and you hit "end trip" (Why you would do so is a mystery) then FSD proceeds without navigation guidance. It will continue straight until it reaches a tee and then it will turn (usually a right turn). If its path is blocked, it might do a u turn but I've never had that happen to me. Further, if one is near one's home destination and FSD is enabled without a navigation route. It will navigate home.

 

[redmunds]

Further, if one is near one's home destination and FSD is enabled without a navigation route. It will navigate home.

I thought I read this somewhere, but can't find it now. Do you have a link to documentation?

 

[tmruwart]

I think your expectations (or understanding of what FSD is) are incorrect.

Despite the acronym, FSD is not Full Self Driving. It is a driver assistance aid (the level of assistance it provides is debatable). It's behavior is not limited to driving from point A to point B, even semi-autonomously. Yes, if you do input a destination, it will take whatever turns are necessary to reach that destination. But it can also be used without a destination programmed in. In fact, this is the way I use it most of the time. When I am driving locally and get on the highway, or even a long boring surface street that I'm going to be on for awhile, I'll engage FSD to perform autosteer and TACC, and I expect it to just continue straight until I disengage because I want to take an exit or turn. I'm not going to bother with putting a destination in most of the time because I know where I am going and how to get there. So not only is this behavior expected, but it's actually preferred to the alternative (in which case I have to tell the car where it's going every time I want to use FSD).

I would not say my expectations are wrong per se - my driving behavioral expectations come from 51 years of driving nearly a million miles in most every kind of traffic in every major US city and a few race tracks. I would categorize the behaviors of FSD as Proper, Questionable, Unexpected (or perhaps Counterintuitive), and Wrong.
I agree with you to the extent that using it without a destination is likely the most common use case - in fact, that is the way I too use it most of the time. However, when it does something unexpected or counterintuitive, like initiating driving unexpectedly or slowing to sub-warp speed with no warning are the cases I think need to be addressed or explained.
That's my 2 scents

 

[tmruwart]

I believe this is current expected behavior. When I get home(with navigation) there is a message that pops up telling me to press on the accelerator to continue. Based on what you are saying I will assume that cancelling/ending the trip is basically telling the car to just keep going.

I don't think it has a destination in mind though, and it defaults to right

Just to clarify based on OP's statements... The OP said that it DID park(well probably HOLD actually). So that at least partially fits your minimum standard. The other part is "until you tell it to go someplace else". That arguably WAS commanded by the action of ending the navigational route but not disengaging FSD.

Just to clarify based on OP's statements... The OP said that it DID park(well probably HOLD actually). So that at least partially fits your minimum standard. The other part is "until you tell it to go someplace else". That arguably WAS commanded by the action of ending the navigational route but not disengaging FSD.

Correct. Everything was "expected" behavior up to and including me pushing "End Trip". It was when the car unexpectedly started moving again without my permission. Hence, it made an incorrect assumption that it should keep driving. Think of it this way: what if it were a human driver with you as a passenger that pulled up in front of your house, stopped the car, you mention to the driver "we're here" (i.e. End Trip), but before you get out of the car, the driver just starts driving again and doesn't tell you where it's going and you have no way of asking it where it's going. That's what I would call unexpected or unacceptable or counterintuitive driver behavior.
It could be a "protocol error" of sorts in that I should have pressed the "Park" button after "End Trip". But, IMHO, when I pressed End Trip, FSD should have known that the navigation was complete (because the navigator even announced the I had arrived at my destination). So, at a minimum, the car should not move at all unless I put my foot on the accelerator - just like it said: "press accelerator to continue" or something like that.
Basically, my criteria for this sort of thing is based on a human driver with me as a passenger.

 

[derotam]

Correct. Everything was "expected" behavior up to and including me pushing "End Trip". It was when the car unexpectedly started moving again without my permission. Hence, it made an incorrect assumption that it should keep driving. Think of it this way: what if it were a human driver with you as a passenger that pulled up in front of your house, stopped the car, you mention to the driver "we're here" (i.e. End Trip), but before you get out of the car, the driver just starts driving again and doesn't tell you where it's going and you have no way of asking it where it's going. That's what I would call unexpected or unacceptable or counterintuitive driver behavior.
It could be a "protocol error" of sorts in that I should have pressed the "Park" button after "End Trip". But, IMHO, when I pressed End Trip, FSD should have known that the navigation was complete (because the navigator even announced the I had arrived at my destination). So, at a minimum, the car should not move at all unless I put my foot on the accelerator - just like it said: "press accelerator to continue" or something like that.
Basically, my criteria for this sort of thing is based on a human driver with me as a passenger.

Yes I like arguing little things, but they are important distinctions sometimes... I don't think it was a protocol error on YOU. I think the error was more on the car not putting itself into park at the end of the navigation, HOWEVER, that is kind of impossible right now because it is not designed to put itself in a park-able spot at the end of the navigation so then it defaults to driver control.

I do agree with you that the car shouldn't necessarily move when you "end trip" after it has come to a stop. The issue with that is that it has to know that you are indeed at the end of your trip and not wanting to continue in FSD. In my case, I will do an end trip occasionally on various routes because of navigational routs that are not appropriate for some reason...In these cases, if I am still moving, the car should NOT stop, and if I am stopped at a light and it turns green, then it SHOULD move on it's own at that point.

This is another one of those problems that doesn't necessarily have a quick fix and therefore it is on the driver to learn the car's behavior and account for it. Tesla's with the OTA updates just make this more sporting because the behavior changes over time and updates.

 

[tmruwart]

Does FSD-without-navigation just drive straight (when possible)? (Like Autopilot)

Or does it take left turns, right turns, etc, seemingly at random?

Drives straight. No turns.

 

[tmruwart]

Yes I like arguing little things, but they are important distinctions sometimes... I don't think it was a protocol error on YOU. I think the error was more on the car not putting itself into park at the end of the navigation, HOWEVER, that is kind of impossible right now because it is not designed to put itself in a park-able spot at the end of the navigation so then it defaults to driver control.

I do agree with you that the car shouldn't necessarily move when you "end trip" after it has come to a stop. The issue with that is that it has to know that you are indeed at the end of your trip and not wanting to continue in FSD. In my case, I will do an end trip occasionally on various routes because of navigational routs that are not appropriate for some reason...In these cases, if I am still moving, the car should NOT stop, and if I am stopped at a light and it turns green, then it SHOULD move on it's own at that point.

This is another one of those problems that doesn't necessarily have a quick fix and therefore it is on the driver to learn the car's behavior and account for it. Tesla's with the OTA updates just make this more sporting because the behavior changes over time and updates.

Agreed. One reason I was concerned about the car moving unexpectedly, particularly from where it was stopped, is that I was looking for something on the floor behind me and there were children playing in the street (to my left and behind my car). The car started moving when I was distracted and not paying attention to the road. Granted, FSD is not likely to hit anyone but kids are very unpredictable.
Incidentally, have you ever had a Phantom Braking event? I still have them so it seems FSD has addressed that issue yet.

 

[derotam]

Agreed. One reason I was concerned about the car moving unexpectedly, particularly from where it was stopped, is that I was looking for something on the floor behind me and there were children playing in the street (to my left and behind my car). The car started moving when I was distracted and not paying attention to the road. Granted, FSD is not likely to hit anyone but kids are very unpredictable.
Incidentally, have you ever had a Phantom Braking event? I still have them so it seems FSD has addressed that issue yet.

Yep, I have had Phantom Braking in the past...I can't think of any since V12 though.