FSD 12 perspective from a previous skeptic

My prior foray into FSD Beta was documented here: Thoughts from a first time FSD Beta User: HW4.

TLDR for that take: Highway drives = Good, "around town" (suburban and rural driving), long way to go. That was version 11.4.4.

I received software update 2024.3.6 (FSD 12.3.2.1) and the free month trial yesterday, I drove around for about 6 hours on mostly suburban roads plus some highway miles. TLDR for this version: I am pretty blown away. All of the talk about "much more human like driving" is accurate IMO. It passed the wife test. Of the few actual disengagements I had, only one was what I would say is not a "corner case". That being said...the one constant (still) issue...the one thing that is not "natural" feeling, is how it handles unprotected turns. To get it to fee "natural" I am constantly pressing the accelerator to push it through and commit sooner than it would otherwise.

On to the details:

I drive a 2023 Model S, HW 4, Non USS. Northern NJ driving. My drives used the "auto speed" mode set in the "normal" position. Note: Elon had made a tweet recently that FSD 12 does not utilize HW4 performance: it runs HW4 in "HW3 emulation mode", which ultimately means that for now, HW4 performance will actually lag that of HW3. This will continue to be the case until Tesla provides specific support for HW4 (whatever that entails....specific training, recompiling, etc.).

I am the kind of person that would roll his eyes every time Whole Mars Blog made another X post about his latest "zero disengagement drive" seemingly every day for the past 2 years. That has just not been anything closely resembling my experience. I don't see a need for FSD myself as I enjoy driving locally. I do appreciate FSD on the highway for long road trips. This is why I purchased Advanced Autopilot on my S, but not FSD. So after my original FSD trial expired this past Dec, I have not used it since. It was potentially more nerve wracking using it than not.

I do have an investment in Tesla, so I keep tabs on FSD progress, and the best way is to try out the new beta for myself as a consumer, and of course the new 30 day free trial provides that opportunity.

Overall impressions: Night and day difference from the past version. No "herky jerky wheel spasm movements." No "what the hell is this car thinking" moments. The best way I could describe it in one sentence: "Imagine if you are a driving instructor, teaching a 30 year old driver who has had a handful of lessons to date." What I mean by that is you have a good level of base confidence in how it's going to drive...the driver may be more tentative in situations where a more experienced driver would not...and while you pay extra attention when you see "novel conditions" on the road, you are more often surprised vs. disappointed at how those situations are handled.

Over my several hours of driving (mostly suburban roads), these were my only disengagements:
1) On a narrow road, car did not see a (I assume fallen) "branch" sticking out of a hedge at about headlight height. If I did not disengage to avoid it, it may have been sticking out into the road enough to hit / scratch the car.
2) On a two way street downtown...a car two ahead of mine stopped to parallel park. The car directly ahead of me stopped to wait. My car stopped for a couple seconds, then appeared to start to want to go around. (In some cases, it may be appropriate to go around...like if a car is double parked, but not this one.)
3) Car was approaching an intersection and deciding "which lane" to go in. It appeared to still be indecisive as it was approaching the car in front. Just as I was about to manually hit the brake to stop, the tesla stopped itself using Emergency Braking. This is actually good to know: that Tesla's emergency safety features are always at work no matter who is driving (you or FSD).
4) Before crossing a one lane bridge, my direction is supposed to yield to on-coming traffic. I did not feel the car was slowing enough to yield to an oncoming car, so I stopped it myself.

I did have one disengagement on the highway. (I believe the highway stack is using FSD 11.x....but someone would need to confirm.) FYI...You can tell for sure when you are diving on the Highway stack vs. FSD 12 stack, because when driving on the highway stack you no longer have "auto speed" indicator, but the original "set speed" options. The highway disengagement was for making a turn onto an exit ramp so aggressively that made me uncomfortable enough to not trust it was going to correct in time.

That's it.

Even the "auto speed" worked fairly well. YEs, there were times when I would have driven a few MPH faster, but overall very good and comfortable. I do know that I tend to drive faster than most.

The one, still consistent, issue on FSD is the unprotected turns. I am constantly...constantly having the push the car through unprotected intersections with the accelerator because I can see that it is clear to go...and the car is just creeping. Mind you, it is steering fine (no freaky wheel spasms)...it's motion is smooth (no stop-start-stop-start)....it really feels like a first time driver that you just need to ensure it "yes...it's really OK to go now...GO!".

I still think that one reason for this is still NHTSA's insistence on certain behavior "at stop signs." The car stops much, much too soon at intersections....then it starts to creep forward. 75% of the time when it comes to the first stop...there is no visibility (for me, and presumably the car).

This is not how people actually drive naturally, and this is behavior that I hope Tesla can lobby NHTSA to relax on.

In sum: I am now very bullish on FSD...where if you asked me 4 months ago I would say "they are a long way away." Other than the stop-sign / unprotected turn behavior, I really feel that they are now legitimately in the "chase the 9s" (address corner case) era. Kudos to the FSD team at Tesla!

For anyone else taking advantage of FSD...I encourage you to:
1) Of course, always stay alert. Don't be complacent.
2) Once you get a feel for how FSD generally behaves, make sure you
a) Always disengage when you are uncomfortable. Don't "try" and "force" zero disengagement drives. The only way to feedback improvements to Tesla is to disengage in these situations where it is appropriate.
b) Likewise, use the accelerator pedal to push though intersections / situations where you would do so if driving manually. DON'T think "I'll just see if it eventually makes it through." Again, the way we will help out training, is to provide feedback that is consistent with how you would actually drive.

"I'm probably not driving" by Edsel L is licensed under CC BY-SA 2.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[PianoAl]

... multiple times drove on or past the white line of the right lane on the highway.

This is a common occurrence for me plus driving on the yellow line in the center (rumble, rumble). If I were driving behind a car doing that, I'd consider calling 911.

What I don't get: Coloring between the lines should be such an easy task for a computer, so why does this error happen?

 

[CuriousWren]

Can anyone explain why FSD is running in emulation on HW4 cars? It cannot fully harness the power of HW4. When will it run natively with all features and performance?

 

[Joey D]

This is a common occurrence for me plus driving on the yellow line in the center (rumble, rumble). If I were driving behind a car doing that, I'd consider calling 911.

What I don't get: Coloring between the lines should be such an easy task for a computer, so why does this error happen?

Because it is not a hard rule. We don't (and should not) simply "color between the lines", if there are obstacles, construction, any number of "unique corner cases" where the actual correct thing to do is NOT color in the lines.

As humans, we just take this for granted. AI must "learn" when it is appropriate to color between the lines, and when it is not (and to what degree).

Patience.

 

[MOE J]

the strikes, beeps, warning chimes, red screen violations, blue screen warnings, the what happend pop ups-----Its a little too much.......for the price.

 

[sublimejackman]

My prior foray into FSD Beta was documented here: Thoughts from a first time FSD Beta User: HW4.

TLDR for that take: Highway drives = Good, "around town" (suburban and rural driving), long way to go. That was version 11.4.4.

I received software update 2024.3.6 (FSD 12.3.2.1) and the free month trial yesterday, I drove around for about 6 hours on mostly suburban roads plus some highway miles. TLDR for this version: I am pretty blown away. All of the talk about "much more human like driving" is accurate IMO. It passed the wife test. Of the few actual disengagements I had, only one was what I would say is not a "corner case". That being said...the one constant (still) issue...the one thing that is not "natural" feeling, is how it handles unprotected turns. To get it to fee "natural" I am constantly pressing the accelerator to push it through and commit sooner than it would otherwise.

On to the details:

I drive a 2023 Model S, HW 4, Non USS. Northern NJ driving. My drives used the "auto speed" mode set in the "normal" position. Note: Elon had made a tweet recently that FSD 12 does not utilize HW4 performance: it runs HW4 in "HW3 emulation mode", which ultimately means that for now, HW4 performance will actually lag that of HW3. This will continue to be the case until Tesla provides specific support for HW4 (whatever that entails....specific training, recompiling, etc.).

I am the kind of person that would roll his eyes every time Whole Mars Blog made another X post about his latest "zero disengagement drive" seemingly every day for the past 2 years. That has just not been anything closely resembling my experience. I don't see a need for FSD myself as I enjoy driving locally. I do appreciate FSD on the highway for long road trips. This is why I purchased Advanced Autopilot on my S, but not FSD. So after my original FSD trial expired this past Dec, I have not used it since. It was potentially more nerve wracking using it than not.

I do have an investment in Tesla, so I keep tabs on FSD progress, and the best way is to try out the new beta for myself as a consumer, and of course the new 30 day free trial provides that opportunity.

Overall impressions: Night and day difference from the past version. No "herky jerky wheel spasm movements." No "what the hell is this car thinking" moments. The best way I could describe it in one sentence: "Imagine if you are a driving instructor, teaching a 30 year old driver who has had a handful of lessons to date." What I mean by that is you have a good level of base confidence in how it's going to drive...the driver may be more tentative in situations where a more experienced driver would not...and while you pay extra attention when you see "novel conditions" on the road, you are more often surprised vs. disappointed at how those situations are handled.

Over my several hours of driving (mostly suburban roads), these were my only disengagements:
1) On a narrow road, car did not see a (I assume fallen) "branch" sticking out of a hedge at about headlight height. If I did not disengage to avoid it, it may have been sticking out into the road enough to hit / scratch the car.
2) On a two way street downtown...a car two ahead of mine stopped to parallel park. The car directly ahead of me stopped to wait. My car stopped for a couple seconds, then appeared to start to want to go around. (In some cases, it may be appropriate to go around...like if a car is double parked, but not this one.)
3) Car was approaching an intersection and deciding "which lane" to go in. It appeared to still be indecisive as it was approaching the car in front. Just as I was about to manually hit the brake to stop, the tesla stopped itself using Emergency Braking. This is actually good to know: that Tesla's emergency safety features are always at work no matter who is driving (you or FSD).
4) Before crossing a one lane bridge, my direction is supposed to yield to on-coming traffic. I did not feel the car was slowing enough to yield to an oncoming car, so I stopped it myself.

I did have one disengagement on the highway. (I believe the highway stack is using FSD 11.x....but someone would need to confirm.) FYI...You can tell for sure when you are diving on the Highway stack vs. FSD 12 stack, because when driving on the highway stack you no longer have "auto speed" indicator, but the original "set speed" options. The highway disengagement was for making a turn onto an exit ramp so aggressively that made me uncomfortable enough to not trust it was going to correct in time.

That's it.

Even the "auto speed" worked fairly well. YEs, there were times when I would have driven a few MPH faster, but overall very good and comfortable. I do know that I tend to drive faster than most.

The one, still consistent, issue on FSD is the unprotected turns. I am constantly...constantly having the push the car through unprotected intersections with the accelerator because I can see that it is clear to go...and the car is just creeping. Mind you, it is steering fine (no freaky wheel spasms)...it's motion is smooth (no stop-start-stop-start)....it really feels like a first time driver that you just need to ensure it "yes...it's really OK to go now...GO!".

I still think that one reason for this is still NHTSA's insistence on certain behavior "at stop signs." The car stops much, much too soon at intersections....then it starts to creep forward. 75% of the time when it comes to the first stop...there is no visibility (for me, and presumably the car).

This is not how people actually drive naturally, and this is behavior that I hope Tesla can lobby NHTSA to relax on.

In sum: I am now very bullish on FSD...where if you asked me 4 months ago I would say "they are a long way away." Other than the stop-sign / unprotected turn behavior, I really feel that they are now legitimately in the "chase the 9s" (address corner case) era. Kudos to the FSD team at Tesla!

For anyone else taking advantage of FSD...I encourage you to:
1) Of course, always stay alert. Don't be complacent.
2) Once you get a feel for how FSD generally behaves, make sure you
a) Always disengage when you are uncomfortable. Don't "try" and "force" zero disengagement drives. The only way to feedback improvements to Tesla is to disengage in these situations where it is appropriate.
b) Likewise, use the accelerator pedal to push though intersections / situations where you would do so if driving manually. DON'T think "I'll just see if it eventually makes it through." Again, the way we will help out training, is to provide feedback that is consistent with how you would actually drive.

View attachment 1033964
"I'm probably not driving" by Edsel L is licensed under CC BY-SA 2.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

Coming from someone who paid for FSD (like a chump) in 2017 and never got it on my first Model S, I'm impressed with the progress.

That being said, I've had a fairly different experience over the past two days with the 30 day trial.

TLDR is that it did really well on broad streets and multi lane roads. However, getting into tight neighborhoods and urban traffic it struggled, badly.

So far I've driven ~45miles/~90min of driving in moderate to heavy traffic. During that time, I felt it nescessary to intervene six times. Two of these interventions would have resulted in damage to my car and once it clipped the curb before I had the chance to grab the wheel. One time it even got halfway to blowing past a school bus with its lights on before I stopped it (I may have let it go too far but I wanted to seee what it would do, no kids were out of the bus yet). It panicked twice, once at a really tough multilane four way stop sign, doing way better than any new driver would do but ultimately still starting and stoping multiple times before I had to jump in.

But it's not all gloom, my only past expericne with FSD was in the fall of 2022 when I drove a Model 3 with it for a few hours. Compared to that, this is lightyears ahead. When just driving around suburbia, it's really quite nice.

Still falls short of my benchmark for something to be "full self-driving" - Would I trust it to drive my kid to school? Not a chance. But it's progress!

 

[Dewg]

Can anyone explain why FSD is running in emulation on HW4 cars? It cannot fully harness the power of HW4. When will it run natively with all features and performance?

The NNs are trained on video clips. The training began with HW3 cars, and when HW4 cars came out, the training continued on HW3, as HW3 represents the bulk of the fleet. At some point they will start training on HW4, likely in parallel with HW3, but they'll need a significant increase in compute on their end to handle the extra training data.

 

[EatsShoots]

I'm another senior citizen hoping the FSD will help with night driving, reaction time. I have a 2023 MY, camera-only, and ordered FSD with the car because my neighbors said it was useful. Last year it still wasn't reliable enough and was nervous making.

To me this is a huge benefit: he cameras detect pedestrians before I can see them. There are a lot of distractions on the road and it's a challenge to see pedestrians coming from both sides. I really like the cautious approach around pedestrians.

It took a while to get used to the autosteer and get comfortable with it. Now it's kind of a relief. I wish they'd make up their minds about steering wheel nags.

Now that I'm using FSD, I wish I could convince it to take my preferred routes. I prefer to take the scenic route!

It does stress me out when a freeway exit is approaching and it's still in the wrong lane. They need a selection for "change lanes sooner."

I like this use. My wife is damn near blind at certain times in the day--like twilight she just really struggles. I can see FSD or analogs to it providing benefit to drivers well before we're at the point that it's actually FSD.

---

Separately I see people talking about interventions, and I have as well, but there are many times when one doesn't have to intervene but the car is still misbehaving (sometimes severely). Typically this would be its refusal to accelerate at certain times.

 

[KerrySkates]

Tesla has lowered the monthly subscription price from $199/month to $99/month. Still higher than most would prefer, but half the cost should move the needle a bit. “Only” $1200/year now.

Tesla slashes price for monthly Full Self-Driving subscription

It also is tweaking the name of FSD to add “Supervised.”

www.theverge.com

 

[arbitrage000]

Tesla has lowered the monthly subscription price from $199/month to $99/month. Still higher than most would prefer, but half the cost should move the needle a bit. “Only” $1200/year now.

Tesla slashes price for monthly Full Self-Driving subscription

It also is tweaking the name of FSD to add “Supervised.”

www.theverge.com

That is good news....now if they would just follow through on their promise it will come to Canada. I only need it for 2 weeks of the year so I'd much rather path ~$135CAD vs $270.

 

[Mikeydeek]

That is good news....now if they would just follow through on their promise it will come to Canada. I only need it for 2 weeks of the year so I'd much rather path ~$135CAD vs $270.

I am in Canada. Just checked my app yesterday under upgrades and it is now there for $99 per month! Assuming that’s CAD!

 

[arbitrage000]

I am in Canada. Just checked my app yesterday under upgrades and it is now there for $99 per month! Assuming that’s CAD!

Yep they added it today and it is a good deal at 99 CAD....cheaper than the US.

 

[timberlights]

I am noticing that my car isn't signaling when merging onto freeways. Anyone else finding that to be the case?

 

[PianoAl]

I am noticing that my car isn't signaling when merging onto freeways. Anyone else finding that to be the case?

Usually, but not always. Yesterday it surprised me by signalling.

 

[redmunds]

Now that I'm using FSD, I wish I could convince it to take my preferred routes. I prefer to take the scenic route!

That's not an FSD problem. That's a navigation system problem.

When you first put in the destination, it sometimes offers alternative routes, but you only have a short time to select one of them. Otherwise, you can add way points, or use an intermediate destination.

It would be nice if the nav system would remember when alternate routes are used.

 

[dachshund]

That's not an FSD problem. That's a navigation system problem.

When you first put in the destination, it sometimes offers alternative routes, but you only have a short time to select one of them. Otherwise, you can add way points, or use an intermediate destination.

It would be nice if the nav system would remember when alternate routes are used.

Got it, thanks. I just disengage until I get past the turn it wanted, then turn it back on. I'll try to notice alternate routes.

I live in an over-55 community and I've started some fun discussions about the v12 FSD. There are many Teslas owners, and some people have the free trial. I start the conversation by saying, "Tesla gave me a big gift the other day..." Meaning FSD that's useful. I feel like I got a new toy, definitely. I'll note that I'm a woman, and my "girlfriends" around here are getting interested in using the software. Grannies on FSD!

 

[PianoAl]

Grannies on FSD

They're gonna get a speeding ticket sooner or later
If they can't keep their feet off the accelerator.

 

[Saxman]

I’m same as you (same timeline too with the v11 trial last August, on my 2023 MYP), hated FSD’s behavior when I tried it last year…tried the new v12 yesterday and it was still terrible. Cannot handle roundabouts gracefully (there are roundabouts everywhere here), chose the wrong lane multiple times when approaching an intersection requiring a turn, did stupid stuff while changing lanes (“bouncing” around between lane lines). Weird braking/acceleration. I must have looked like a moron to the people around me but I tried to give it a fair shake. Especially with the roundabouts it’s literally dangerous because it does things that to other drivers are unpredictable.

I posted about this experience in the main FSD v12 thread and one person told me I’d like it more once I used it more…LOL hell no, I’m not going to use this *more* when it managed to make so many errors in 10 minutes of driving to the grocery.

I've had FSD BETA on my MX 2016, since December 2022. While I noticed slow improvements since then, my experiences were not great and needing frequent interventions.

In December 2023 I took delivery of my new MXLR. Prior to V12, my FSD BETA was marginally improving. However since V12 BETA and now V12 Supervised my FSD experiences are night & day superior, than previously.

Like you, my community has many "2-lane" Roundabouts. I am pleasantly amazed at how natural and smoothly FSD SUPERVISED is driving.

I recently drove from Edwards. CO to Boulder, CO (122 miles), over the Vail Pass, mostly on I-70W. Through the Mountains and local Boulder roads, I encountered road construction. Each instance FSD was excellent.

On I-70, I was in the passing lane when in my rear camera I noticed a car in my lane fast approaching. FSD automatically switched me to the slower right lane. I immediately thought that coincidental, until FSD did that same maneuver twice more on this trip.

I couldn't be more please since V12, how well FSD is progressing. Naturally I am STILL extremely attentive with my hands & feet at the ready to intervene if necessary. However these interventions are almost non existent, so far.

You may want to reconsider your reluctance to further experimenting with FSD SUPERVISED. In my opinion and now with many hours of usage locally and on Interstates, I feel it's a game changer.