This Latest Attempt to Force FSD Upon Everyone is Hurting the FSD Cause More Than Helping

[BitJam]

That Elon guy is some kind of special.

Correct, but everything else you said is wrong.

He decided to showcase the absolute worst FSD version (v12) to the world to be laughed at.

1. Every reliable source I have says v12 is by far the best version. You would have to provide a lot of reliable data to convince me otherwise.
2. I've been around on this with other self-blinded haters. To anyone with even a smidgen of objectivity, it's clear the purpose of the free trial was to get more data to feed Tesla's 10 billion dollars of training compute. It was not to showcase a working version of FSD. As you rightly note, it's not working yet and it's not ready to showcase.

Now everyone will know what a joke FSD is and what a joke of a company Tesla is. You cannot be this dumb. He must be intentionally trying to crash the stock price or destroy the company.

Without reliable sources to back up your extraordinary claims, you just sound foolish and self-blinded.

Despite Elon: revolutionizing the auto industry; revolutionizing the space industry; providing high bandwidth internet access to remote areas of the world (including my own); and starting to revolutionize the energy sector, your argument boils down to:

Let's ASSume Elon is an utter idiot. Hey, Elon is an utter idiot!​

​

Elon knows FSD is not working yet. That's why they are investing billions of dollars in training compute. It is why they gave the free trial and why they just cut the subscription price in half. If FSD were actually ready to showcase then Elon's action would be entirely different. First, there would be no need to provide a free trial. YouTubers and even the media would provide more than enough coverage of this historic and world-changing milestone. Second, the subscription price would go up, not down. Third, Tesla would release details of their planned robotaxi.

Instead, Elon has announced a robotaxi announcement in August. I imagine this means he thinks FSD will be much better then and may be ready to showcase then. But certainly not now. Elon has been so wrong with his FSD predictions for so long, I am dubious about robotaxi FSD being nearly ready in August. We will see.

One thing I am certain of is that if FSD is ever good enough to showcase as truly autonomous then the whole world will know about it without the need for a free trial. It will revolutionize our world. This is why the hopium addicts are getting high on their own supply with Elon's 8/8 announcement announcement.

 

[alsetyledom280]

While your conclusions of the data could be correct, I see it more like there are some owners of FSD that just don't use it. I know a number of people like that. To them the price really wasn't an issue.
Which then puts the average usage of those who do use it a lot higher.
But I believe that the numbers that you are using is off. If I am not mistaken, the 1dn includes any automated driving. And I don't think that the 400k is a known number, or at least I don't think that Tesla has ever published it.

Don't assume that AI has 1B miles of training available to it. Not everything that the car experiences is sent back to Tesla and not every Tesla sends it back.
And every new version of FSD requires retraining.

Both 400k FSD enabled car and 1bn miles are words from musk himself within past 12 months

 

[KelvinMace]

That Elon guy is some kind of special. He decided to showcase the absolute worst FSD version (v12) to the world to be laughed at. Now everyone will know what a joke FSD is and what a joke of a company Tesla is. You cannot be this dumb. He must be intentionally trying to crash the stock price or destroy the company.

Absolutely on the nose description of why FSD 12.3.3 is not ready for prime time, and why I preferred using TACC with stop light/sign control, before they broke it in v12.x. Oh, how can I keep my eyes on the road when it is throwing up phantom alerts that I have to look at the screen to read?

 

[KelvinMace]

Correct, but everything else you said is wrong.

1. Every reliable source I have says v12 is by far the best version. You would have to provide a lot of reliable data to convince me otherwise.
2. I've been around on this with other self-blinded haters. To anyone with even a smidgen of objectivity, it's clear the purpose of the free trial was to get more data to feed Tesla's 10 billion dollars of training compute. It was not to showcase a working version of FSD. As you rightly note, it's not working yet and it's not ready to showcase.

Without reliable sources to back up your extraordinary claims, you just sound foolish and self-blinded.

Despite Elon: revolutionizing the auto industry; revolutionizing the space industry; providing high bandwidth internet access to remote areas of the world (including my own); and starting to revolutionize the energy sector, your argument boils down to:

Let's ASSume Elon is an utter idiot. Hey, Elon is an utter idiot!​

​

Elon knows FSD is not working yet. That's why they are investing billions of dollars in training compute. It is why they gave the free trial and why they just cut the subscription price in half. If FSD were actually ready to showcase then Elon's action would be entirely different. First, there would be no need to provide a free trial. YouTubers and even the media would provide more than enough coverage of this historic and world-changing milestone. Second, the subscription price would go up, not down. Third, Tesla would release details of their planned robotaxi.

Instead, Elon has announced a robotaxi announcement in August. I imagine this means he thinks FSD will be much better then and may be ready to showcase then. But certainly not now. Elon has been so wrong with his FSD predictions for so long, I am dubious about robotaxi FSD being nearly ready in August. We will see.

One thing I am certain of is that if FSD is ever good enough to showcase as truly autonomous then the whole world will know about it without the need for a free trial. It will revolutionize our world. This is why the hopium addicts are getting high on their own supply with Elon's 8/8 announcement announcement.

As an owner of two 2018 Model 3s, I consider myself a reliable source. A simple glance through this site reveals a substantial number of people who have had problems with the software/hardware.

 

[BitJam]

As an owner of two 2018 Model 3s, I consider myself a reliable source.

Sure, almost every person considers themselves to be a credible source. But that does not make them a credible source for others. If it did then everyone would be a credible source, which is ridiculous. The technical term for this sort of argument is "grasping at straws".

A simple glance through this site reveals a substantial number of people who have had problems with the software/hardware.

Sure, there are plenty of non-credible Tesla haters here on TMC. Yet the vast majority of reports here about v12 (that I've seen) have been extremely positive. I am certainly not going to do your cherry picking for you. But I thank you for providing two examples of unpersuasive arguments.

Since the concept of credible source may not be clear, I will provide some examples.

Micheal Dell, CEO of Dell Computers:

Super impressive, Tesla FSD v12.3 is. Like a human driver, it is.​

Chris from Dirty Tesla has been meticulously documenting FSD performance for years.

FSD V12 has been amazing so far. It has fixed *every* repeatable problem I've had, including lane drift, lack of smoothness, construction driving, and behavior on unmarked/dirt roads. But there are a few new consistent problems I'm seeing. [...] things are getting awesome.​

Kyle Conner from Out of Spec has been reviewing EVs for many years. His videos convinced me I needed a Tesla in my life. He has been a long-time FSD skeptic.

I’ve been driving FSD V12 all evening and I’m finally starting to see the light. This is so good, not perfect, but definitely feels like Tesla may be onto something with this new software stack

Kyle is Finally Enthusiastic about Tesla FSD But Autopilot Enthusiast is not Impressed w/ v12

Here is a 4 month old video of Chris from Dirty Tesla documenting the changes in FSD over the years.

Tesla FSD Reviewed -- The Past Present and v12 Future

There are many, many others. All or almost all of the credible sources that I've been following for years say v12 is vastly better. I'm not claiming there are no haters. I'm not claiming v12 is vastly better for everyone. But the idea that v12 is the worst version of FSD is laughably wrong.

Your two unpersuasive arguments trying to say otherwise merely lower your own credibility. Thank you for that update. You may have some valid points but when you make silly arguments to back up a point that is laughably false then people are less likely to take you seriously and are more likely to miss any valid points you do have.

I am reminded of the first rule of holes:

If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.​

 

[Dewg]

Sure, almost every person considers themselves to be a credible source. But that does not make them a credible source for others. If it did then everyone would be a credible source, which is ridiculous. The technical term for this sort of argument is "grasping at straws".



Sure, there are plenty of non-credible Tesla haters here on TMC. Yet the vast majority of reports here about v12 (that I've seen) have been extremely positive. I am certainly not going to do your cherry picking for you. But I thank you for providing two examples of unpersuasive arguments.

Since the concept of credible source may not be clear, I will provide some examples.

Micheal Dell, CEO of Dell Computers:

Super impressive, Tesla FSD v12.3 is. Like a human driver, it is.​

Chris from Dirty Tesla has been meticulously documenting FSD performance for years.

FSD V12 has been amazing so far. It has fixed *every* repeatable problem I've had, including lane drift, lack of smoothness, construction driving, and behavior on unmarked/dirt roads. But there are a few new consistent problems I'm seeing. [...] things are getting awesome.​

Kyle Conner from Out of Spec has been reviewing EVs for many years. His videos convinced me I needed a Tesla in my life. He has been a long-time FSD skeptic.

I’ve been driving FSD V12 all evening and I’m finally starting to see the light. This is so good, not perfect, but definitely feels like Tesla may be onto something with this new software stack

Kyle is Finally Enthusiastic about Tesla FSD But Autopilot Enthusiast is not Impressed w/ v12

Here is a 4 month old video of Chris from Dirty Tesla documenting the changes in FSD over the years.

Tesla FSD Reviewed -- The Past Present and v12 Future

There are many, many others. All or almost all of the credible sources that I've been following for years say v12 is vastly better. I'm not claiming there are no haters. I'm not claiming v12 is vastly better for everyone. But the idea that v12 is the worst version of FSD is laughably wrong.

Your two unpersuasive arguments trying to say otherwise merely lower your own credibility. Thank you for that update. You may have some valid points but when you make silly arguments to back up a point that is laughably false then people are less likely to take you seriously and are more likely to miss any valid points you do have.

I am reminded of the first rule of holes:

If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.​

Stop it. You're trying to break confirmation bias, which is just too upsetting for some people.

 

[JBT66]

I don’t have the attention span to read all of that, but this isn’t the first time they have done a free trial and won’t be the last. I imagine there are more people who will try it and be willing to try it again vs those who might opt to never touch it.

 

[E90alex]

I don’t have the attention span to read all of that, but this isn’t the first time they have done a free trial and won’t be the last. I imagine there are more people who will try it and be willing to try it again vs those who might opt to never touch it.

This is the first time they’ve done a free trial fleet wide including old cars. Previously it had just been with a new car purchase for 1 or 3 months.

 

[ewoodrick]

That Elon guy is some kind of special. He decided to showcase the absolute worst FSD version (v12) to the world to be laughed at. Now everyone will know what a joke FSD is and what a joke of a company Tesla is. You cannot be this dumb. He must be intentionally trying to crash the stock price or destroy the company.

Hermit living under the rocks

Absolutely on the nose description of why FSD 12.3.3 is not ready for prime time, and why I preferred using TACC with stop light/sign control, before they broke it in v12.x. Oh, how can I keep my eyes on the road when it is throwing up phantom alerts that I have to look at the screen to read?

Why would you think that it is ready for prime time?

Alerts are generally one sentence messages of which there are very few. You should be able to glance and read before kicking off the alert warning.

 

[GeorgeC1]

My experience pretty much mirrors yours. Won’t be paying for it after the trial.

 

[KelvinMace]

Hermit living under the rocks

Why would you think that it is ready for prime time?

Alerts are generally one sentence messages of which there are very few. You should be able to glance and read before kicking off the alert warning.

People seem to think that the improvements mean "any day now, FSD Level 3". when in fact we are still in the low 90s for accuracy Alerts are small boxes on the screen that are difficult to read. Alerts should be MUCH larger since they are supposed to be important. Also, I get phantom alerts, meaning an audible alert tone, but NOTHING appears on the screen. Add to this that I am getting "FSD may be degraded due to poor weather" alerts when it isn't even raining, then continuous alerts every 20 seconds when it is, no matter how lightly.

Every alert is a distraction. The distraction is warranted if it is telling me something important. Alerts which tell me nothing, are false alerts, or tell me something they told me 30 seconds ago, and keep telling me every 30 seconds are unwarranted, and distracting in a manner that impacts safety.

 

[JB47394]

Every alert is a distraction.

Voice warning system - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kevy Baby]

My experience pretty much mirrors yours. Won’t be paying for it after the trial.

Well, then they had to go and lower the price of upgrading from EAP to $2K.

 

[KelvinMace]

Voice warning system - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The problem is FSD now gives alerts every 30 seconds if it is raining, some times even when it is not. I now get frequent alerts about cameras getting blinded when I didn't in the past (driving the same route). Also, I get audio warning tones, with no on screen indication of why the tone is sounding.

 

[ewoodrick]

The problem is FSD now gives alerts every 30 seconds if it is raining, some times even when it is not. I now get frequent alerts about cameras getting blinded when I didn't in the past (driving the same route). Also, I get audio warning tones, with no on screen indication of why the tone is sounding.

It may give you too frequent alerts when in inclimate weather, but pretty sure that it is much more than 30 seconds.
It's not cameras blinding, it's degraded visibility and during these times, max speed may be impacted.

 

[HitchHiker71]

The problem is FSD now gives alerts every 30 seconds if it is raining, some times even when it is not. I now get frequent alerts about cameras getting blinded when I didn't in the past (driving the same route). Also, I get audio warning tones, with no on screen indication of why the tone is sounding.

Yes - IME that audio warning tones are sometimes due to a momentary flash of "toll booth detected" on the screen - it only flashes very briefly - then disappears. Here's the kicker - there's no toll booth anywhere when this happens. Ironically, when actually approaching toll booths, I've yet to see this detection flash up and work properly. We took a weekend trip recently with FSD 12.3.4, and went through two toll booths, one on the way up, and one on the way back home. On the way up, FSD couldn't identify the toll booth via the screen notification, nor figure out what to do approaching the toll booth area, so I intervened as there was too much traffic around us to see what it might or might not do. Heading home, same toll area, no one behind us, still no toll booth notification/detection, and it was very wishy-washy about picking a toll booth lane with the steering wheel rocking back and forth as we approached the booth area, then FSD finally choose a lane and I tapped the go pedal and it went through the lane just fine. First time I've ever been able to successfully stay on FSD through a toll booth maneuver, but it's still way too tentative/unsure of itself approaching the toll booth area, most folks will intervene as a result.

 

[KelvinMace]

Yes - IME that audio warning tones are sometimes due to a momentary flash of "toll booth detected" on the screen - it only flashes very briefly - then disappears. Here's the kicker - there's no toll booth anywhere when this happens. Ironically, when actually approaching toll booths, I've yet to see this detection flash up and work properly. We took a weekend trip recently with FSD 12.3.4, and went through two toll booths, one on the way up, and one on the way back home. On the way up, FSD couldn't identify the toll booth via the screen notification, nor figure out what to do approaching the toll booth area, so I intervened as there was too much traffic around us to see what it might or might not do. Heading home, same toll area, no one behind us, still no toll booth notification/detection, and it was very wishy-washy about picking a toll booth lane with the steering wheel rocking back and forth as we approached the booth area, then FSD finally choose a lane and I tapped the go pedal and it went through the lane just fine. First time I've ever been able to successfully stay on FSD through a toll booth maneuver, but it's still way too tentative/unsure of itself approaching the toll booth area, most folks will intervene as a result.

Seems like a hallucination problem (something that has yet to be fixed in AI). I have had it get upset about phantom traffic lights.

 

[KelvinMace]

It may give you too frequent alerts when in inclimate weather, but pretty sure that it is much more than 30 seconds.
It's not cameras blinding, it's degraded visibility and during these times, max speed may be impacted.

Again, this is a new development. I didn't get endless alerts unless the rain was heavy in the past, and then, it would only be a single audio alert and the visual would remain on the screen until the rain stopped, or at least slowed down. Now I get it in light rain, or if it looks like rain. The cameras being blinded message comes in the morning when I am driving in clear weather.

 

[ewoodrick]

Again, this is a new development. I didn't get endless alerts unless the rain was heavy in the past, and then, it would only be a single audio alert and the visual would remain on the screen until the rain stopped, or at least slowed down. Now I get it in light rain, or if it looks like rain. The cameras being blinded message comes in the morning when I am driving in clear weather.

You may try cleaning your cameras, could be a small obstruction.

For me, the degradation message has been around for a long time, it even appears on dark nights and empty highways. Basically the car seems to think that something is broke if the camera's view is just black.
And it indeed pops up when raining. I *think* that it is not repeating itself as much as it is degrading and then getting better and then degrading again.

 

[BitJam]

My maps got updated so now FSD knows how to get me to the grocery store. Oddly, in the Software tab it says the navigation data is still 2023.* and I haven't had a recent firmware update.

I first noticed the improved nav data because two more streets were added to the navigation directions going to a obscure place I drive to once a week. The last two streets didn't show up in the navigation instructions before. Granted, Tesla got the street names wrong, or at least different from Google.

When I saw this I tried having it navigate to the grocery store and, sure enough, it finally knows about the traffic light that was added years ago and it now know how to get to the grocery store.

I'm on 2024.8.* so no free trial yet. Previously I had said I hoped they would fix the map data before releasing v12 in my area. Sure enough, they did! This might seem like a minor issue but I think it is a sign they they are taking the wide release of FSD seriously. They really needed to fix the nav data for FSD to be reasonably useful where I live.