This Latest Attempt to Force FSD Upon Everyone is Hurting the FSD Cause More Than Helping

[arbitrage000]

Do the cars in the US using FSD actually come to a full stop 2 times like you describe at a stop sign? In Canada the correct way it to stop before the stop sign and then proceed unless visibility is obscured and then you treat it as if it were a yield situation. Bottom line is V12.3 FSD does come to a complete stop and then immediately accelerates rather quickly. This is easily overridden by slightly pressing the accelerator before coming to a complete stop and then the car just goes just like people normally drive or if you prefer turns it into a rolling stop.

I come to this one intersection in the mornings which is a 4 way stop and usually there are cars on all corners. I was very surprised to see how well and quick (without hesitation) FSD handled the departure. It is definitely capable in determining correctly when it is my turn to go and does so rather affirmably.

I'm in Canada and just like the poster above noted anytime a stop sign is set back a bit from the cross street the car will do a full stop (Wait for zero on the speedometer) and then will creep and often stop again at the cross street until it is sure there is no cross traffic. However at a 4-way it will usually just stop the once, determine its turn and then go. The thing I like is when it decides to go...it GOES....but a lot of the time it goes so hard that it has to decelerate immediately. Even when no car is ahead the auto speed option will often accelerate so much that it hits 15km/h more than it seems to want to go....so hard accelerate to 65km/h in a 40km/h zone and then hard deceleration to say 45-50km/h a second later. If it was intending to go 45-50km/h....why does it go so hard and blow by that speed to 65km/h just for a second or two?

I've been doing what you mention....slowly staying on the accelerator to bring the car to the stop at the cross street and not back at the stop sign. Then I'll let it stop at that point and go when it wants to...unless I feel it is taking to long to decide...then I push the pedal and get it going.

 

[ewoodrick]

I notice some people focus on what it does poorly, and hate it.
Others focus on what it does well, is helpful, and like it.

And what people are now complaining about is basically saying that it is indeed a huge leap forward and close to being ready for prime time.

 

[ewoodrick]

And you keep unequivocally argue that it absolutely is AP that stops at stop signs/lights. The truth is that you (nor I) don't know that if this is a function of AP moving forward (including the current test). With the ambiguity of the manual, we will not know one way or the other until the trial ends and people go back to just AP.

What I was "unequivocally dismissing" in @KelvinMace's posts was their instance (over several posts) that PRIOR TO this current test that TACC/AP was capable of stopping at stop signs/lights. That is factually incorrect. (Although I will admit that I did not make it clear in my post that I was referring to previous versions.)

I know that TACC used to stop at stop signs and required accelerator to proceed. But that's from about 2 years ago.

 

[JB47394]

I still don't understand this stopping at stoplights....

What you're describing is consistent with Autopilot's behavior.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_eu/GUID-A701F7DC-875C-4491-BC84-605A77EA152C.html

This feature uses the vehicle's forward-facing cameras, in addition to GPS data, and slows the car for all detected traffic lights, including green, blinking yellow, and off lights in addition to stop signs and some road markings. As [vehicle] approaches an intersection, the touchscreen displays a notification indicating the intention to slow down. You must confirm that you want to continue or [vehicle] stops at the red line displayed on the touchscreen's driving visualization.

 

[zoomer0056]

What you're describing is consistent with Autopilot's behavior.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_eu/GUID-A701F7DC-875C-4491-BC84-605A77EA152C.html

I downloaded the pdf from that link. It's for the European market (see bottom of screen capture). I don't know if that makes any difference.

 

[JB47394]

I downloaded the pdf from that link. It's for the European market (see bottom of screen capture). I don't know if that makes any difference.

Thanks for spotting that. It's the same for the US. I can't find one specific to Canada, so they may use the US one.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-A701F7DC-875C-4491-BC84-605A77EA152C.html

This feature uses the vehicle's forward-facing cameras, in addition to GPS data, and slows the car for all detected traffic lights, including green, blinking yellow, and off lights in addition to stop signs and some road markings. As [vehicle] approaches an intersection, the touchscreen displays a notification indicating the intention to slow down. You must confirm that you want to continue or [vehicle] stops at the red line displayed on the touchscreen's driving visualization.

 

[zoomer0056]

Thanks for spotting that. It's the same for the US. I can't find one specific to Canada, so they may use the US one.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-A701F7DC-875C-4491-BC84-605A77EA152C.html

Thanks for that. It seems problematic.

Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control is designed to recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs, slowing Model Y to a stop when using Traffic-Aware cruise control or Autosteer. This feature uses the vehicle's forward-facing cameras, in addition to GPS data, and slows the car for all detected traffic lights, including green, blinking yellow, and off lights in addition to stop signs and some road markings. As Model Y approaches an intersection, the touchscreen displays a notification indicating the intention to slow down. You must confirm that you want to continue or Model Y stops at the red line displayed on the touchscreen's driving visualization.

Tesla, always exciting!

 

[JB47394]

Tesla, always exciting!

I think Tesla is being pretty generous to allow Autopilot use on secondary roads with lights and signs. All you have to do is control the accelerator to keep driving as long as your lane continues.

 

[VT_EE]

Have to agree with the OP. I think Musk’s current attempt to show FSD to the world is going to back fire. To me 12.3 has been much worse than v11 (I'd be happy to trade anecdotes with anyone who thinks v12 is amazing) and has caused me to just give up on FSD beta, and increasingly I’m feeling like I’m over Tesla.

These forums and social media accounts that obsess over Tesla, are not representative of typical consumers let alone typical Tesla consumers. They are the 1% of Tesla fans…the early adopters…the die-hards. I’d bet 95%+ of people who own a vehicle have never visited a vehicle-branded fan forum. You just buy a car and move on with life. The problem is a massive feedback loop and lots and lots of motivated reasoning. It’s like going to a Chicago Cubs forum and talking about how awesome the 2024 Cubs are going to be. It’s objectively not objective. Musk sees influencers raving about how amazing v12 is and then assumes this reflects reality or a typical persons experience (note: this is why you “don’t get high on your own supply”).

I've had every version of FSD beta from 12.3 all the way back to 10.2 in October 2021, so I’ve witnessed the relatively slow pace of progress and various bumps along the way. Sure, over this time it has improved in many ways. And from time to time, I’ll have the fun "no intervention" drive that feels almost like magic. But in reality…anyone who is even mildly self-aware…realizes this whole thing is still just a fun party trick…a novelty for “early adopters.” It’s not a driver assist feature that takes the stress/hazard out of driving...and it's certainly not “FULL self-driving.” If you are at all in a hurry, just want to get to where you are going and don’t want to feel like babysitting your car…you aren’t using FSD. It’s just not reliable enough, and behaves in predictably irregular ways that are often stress inducing (like taking forever at stop signs, making poor lane selections, etc) or distressing to many passengers (jerkiness, improper acceleration/breaking).

The first year or so of playing around with FSD beta, I’ll admit that I got a decent amount of pleasure with it. I tend to be an early adopter of new technology and get joy out of watching technology progress. And it was fan to read peoples experience on these forums. But at some point, the novelty wears off and you just want your car to function in a reliable way.

I feel like I had gotten to a happy medium with FSD beta (not worth $12K, but definitely the initial $2K I paid during the one-time fire sale). I basically used it to overcome many of the shortcomings with regular autopilot. The map data for the area near my house has been ridiculously outdated for a few years due to historical road constitution (long in the past) and autopilot thinks a 65mph zone is 45. The 20-mile route I take to work is posted at 55mph but nobody drives below 65, even when cops are present. So FSD beta allowed me to correct for the 5mph limit in regular autopilot that made these drives more tolerable.

However, 12.3 has finally caused me to lose all faith in the future of Tesla’s FSD effort and actually start looking for a new vehicle. As others have noted…speed control in 12.3 is absurd (and 12.3.1 didn’t fix it) which has turned my drive into a non-stop effort of babysitting...and coaxing FSD to stay at the speed I set. And while lots of anecdotes on these forums suggest 12.3 is much improved, in my experience the improvements are still very marginal (my handful of test cases in the past week actually seemed worse than version 11). Even though we just got a brand-new model Y with the free FSD transfer…I’m seriously considering trading for a new vehicle. At this point all I want is (a) lane keep, (b) adaptive cruise control, and (c) the ability to set the speed at a specific speed limit that I choose…and now FSD has broken this. My mother in-laws 2-year-old Kia has these features (and her auto headlights/wipers work far better).

I think Musk, and Tesla FSD fans, are going to be very surprised when they come to realize…the size of the population interested in the novelty that is currently FSD beta is not that large. And the fact that v12 breaks user speed control…just might be the thing that causes people to rethink whether Tesla is really making any realistic progress at all.

Part of the problem seems to be that you are expecting it to drive the same way you do, which is not how any of these systems will ever work. The goal is for it to get you safely from point A to B. It does that pretty well now in my vehicle. I have been a FSD hater for a while now, but am really surprised how well 12.3.3 works on short and long drives. It’s not perfect, but is absolutely on a path to robotaxi.

 

[Tom_JS]

I find it very cool, but the car is just too much fun to drive to just sit there. I could see me using it on a long slog down route 80 to ease the stress of highway driving. One thing I definitely like is the visualizations though. I wish that would remain, even a small charge just for that I *might* pay for.

 

[BitJam]

Logarithmic doesn't become very slow ... quite the opposite. Parabolic slows down as it reaches its limit ..

April Fool's joke?

The log function is the inverse of the exponential. Just like exponential growth approaches infinity (faster than any polynomial), logarithmic growth approaches zero (slower than any polynomial).

Loosely speaking, search engines, data bases, the internet, etc all only work because logarithmic growth is so slow. For example, a binary search in a list of N items takes on order log(N) operations while a linear search takes on order M operations. So a binary search in a list of a million items is 50 thousand times faster than a linear search. A binary search in a list of a billion items is 33 million times faster. Yes, many other tricks (like caching) are used but without algorithms with run times that grow logarithmically, the internet as we know it would be impossible.

The parabolic function (x squared) has no limit. x squared approaches infinity as x approaches infinity. Also, since x squared is a polynomial and log grows slower than any polynomial, log curves grow slower than parabolas.

Even without basic math literacy, a simple Google search would have verified that logarithmic growth becomes very, very slow.

 

[BitJam]

[...] the fact that every (US) car has FSD at the moment [...]

I agree with a lot of what you've said but this is simply not true. In my 2021 MY, I'm still on 2024.8.7 here in rural New Mexico. My car does not have an FSD option in the Autopilot menu. Many others in rural America and elsewhere are in the same boat.

I'm not complaining. FSD was terrible here when I tried it last summer. In addition the (2023) Tesla map is years out of date so the car does not know how to navigate to the grocery store thus FSD can't drive me to the grocery store. It is insanely bad. I imagine Tesla is aware of these problems and is trying to fix some of them before giving us the free trial of v12.

I agree with Tesla's strategy of giving areas with low population density and low Tesla uptake rate lower priority. But they will need to eventually get the problems in these areas fixed if they want FSD to work nation-wide.

Here is a recent thread about others stuck on 2024.8.7:

What is the next update from 2024.8.7?

I've been doing some light reading and there are different branches for Tesla updates? There's a 2024 branch and a 2023 branch? It seems the 2023 branch has gotten FSD 12 while the 2024 branch is still stuck on FSD 11? If you had FSD or a FSD trial active you most likely were on the old 2023...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[Kevy Baby]

Thanks for spotting that. It's the same for the US. I can't find one specific to Canada, so they may use the US one.

Just FYI: there is not a separate manual for Canada: there is just one for "North America". I don't know if there is a French language (or Spanish for Mexico since they are also part of North America in most definitions) and/or metric versions.

 

[Kevy Baby]

I agree with a lot of what you've said but this is simply not true. In my 2021 MY, I'm still on 2024.8.7 here in rural New Mexico. My car does not have an FSD option in the Autopilot menu. Many others in rural America and elsewhere are in the same boat.[/URL]

Thanks for pointing that out: you are absolutely correct!

 

[Redmiata98]

Thanks for that. It seems problematic.

Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control is designed to recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs, slowing Model Y to a stop when using Traffic-Aware cruise control or Autosteer. This feature uses the vehicle's forward-facing cameras, in addition to GPS data, and slows the car for all detected traffic lights, including green, blinking yellow, and off lights in addition to stop signs and some road markings. As Model Y approaches an intersection, the touchscreen displays a notification indicating the intention to slow down. You must confirm that you want to continue or Model Y stops at the red line displayed on the touchscreen's driving visualization.

Tesla, always exciting!

The notice on the screen that it is slowing down and you need to hit the accelerator is probably an interim measure. It was this way when the first atempt at FSD with stop lights was implemented years ago and then was replaced with the green light no slow down. Fingers crossed it IS an interim measure.

 

[KelvinMace]

Yes, in long distance drives, I found TACC and Autosteer to be nice on light traffic freeways. However, I do not use them in moderate to heavy traffic situations, because TACC follows too closely even at the largest following distance setting and requires heightened alertness more of the time (and thus more stress and tiredness eventually). I found the same issue with FSDS when I tried it a few times, even when set to chill mode.

In theory, TACC or FSDS could be useful as a traffic jam valet in very heavy traffic, but I found that TACC was too jerky when I tried it in that situation, and have not tried FSDS in such a situation.

I have found, until the latest update, that TACC was smooth and reliable. I used it constantly in city driving. Now it is almost unusable.

 

[KelvinMace]

Your point is factually incorrect. I don't know how else to say it.

TACC does not stop at red lights/stop signs, proceeded through green lights: that is FSD. What I believe you want to say is that prior versions of FSD worked better than v12.

Here is sort of a hierarchy of the Tesla driving automation (yes, there are other functions in EAP and FSD, but I am focusing on just the driving portions)

1. TACC (Traffic Aware Cruise Control) - maintains SPEED, slowing/stopping for vehicles in front of your car and re-accelerating when those cars go. Does not look at anything other than the car in front of yours. Historically was locked out to just highway driving, but I don't see this limitation listed in the manual.
2. AP (Autopilot) - Adds Autosteer to TACC (and Autosteer cannot be enacted without TACC). Autosteer keeps your car in it's lane. Without EAP or FSD, you can't change lanes without disabling. Historically was locked out to just highway driving, but I don't see this limitation listed in the manual.
3. EAP (Enhanced Auto Pilot) - Adds NoAP (Navigate on Auto Pilot) and auto lane changes. Only navigates on highways: from on-ramp to off-ramp.
4. FSD (Full Self Driving) - Adds surface street navigation including stopping at stop lights and stop signs, going around corners, etc. (without getting into the debate about how well it works)

Up until the 12.3 update, TACC stopped at stop signs and stop lights, whether there was a car in front of me or not. Prior to v12, "FSD", which is what Musk renamed Autopilot when it began to look like legal issues would attach to it, was unreliable for anything but highway driving, and even then had to be closely supervised. TACC now stops at green lights until prodded, stops at non-existent "traffic control" points, and some times slows down for red lights, then tries to drive through them. My point is not "factually incorrect", it has been my daily driving experience for several years. I think Tesla deliberately broke TACC, by degrading its reliability so that drivers would forced to use "FSD"in order to get the prior functionality of TACC. This would not be so big a deal if "FSD" was reliable, which it isn't. (The roads are drive on are relatively new and well marked).

Meanwhile, "FSD" picks wrong lanes, slows suddenly for no reason, changes from 45 mph speed limit to a 30 mph limit for no discernible reason, sporadically stops reading speed limit signs. Also, you no longer have a choice to engage TACC versus "FSD" with a single/double pull of the stalk.

My wife refuses to update to v12.3, though the car nags her every day to update. As such, TACC still works properly, proceeding through green lights, stopping at stop signs/red lights. My car is a 2018 LR, hers a 2018 performance.

 

[KelvinMace]

What color is the light in the visualization? Is there any pop-up messages indicating what the car is doing?

The light shows green, but there is a red line in front of the light, and the car warns me that it will be stopping at "traffic control". This is something it did not do prior to the update. If the light was green, it proceeded through without prompting. I can prompt it to proceed (stalk pull, or step on accelerator) when it starts to slow down, but if I do and the light turns red, it will try to run the light, despite having plenty of time to stop appropriately. This is something it NEVER did prior to the update. Also, my wife's 2018 3P, still running v11, behaves correctly.

 

[zoomer0056]

Up until the 12.3 update, TACC stopped at stop signs and stop lights, whether there was a car in front of me or not.

Several have commented the same, so there has to be truth here. What year car and version software do/did you have before the 2024.3.10 FSD (Supervised) v12.3.3 update?

Currently TACC is one of two features of basic Autopilot. The other feature is Autosteer. TACC is not a separate feature of FSD (Supervised).

Where did TACC fit in your previous version feature set?

 

[Kevy Baby]

TACC stopped at stop signs and stop lights

TACC never has stopped at stop signs and stop lights. That has always been a function of FSD (not even EAP).

If I recall correctly, you said that you've had FSD for a while (maybe since you got your car in 2018). THAT is why your car has been able to stop at stop signs and stop lights.

I bought my car in August 2019 and it only had AP. It would not stop at stop signs and stop lights.
I purchased EAP on September 29, 2020 (it was a sale). I still did not gain the ability to stop at stop signs and stop lights
I was not able to stop at stop signs and stop lights until I received the current FSD free trial.

Stop confusing the facts.