This Latest Attempt to Force FSD Upon Everyone is Hurting the FSD Cause More Than Helping

[ewoodrick]

It's not about trust. It's about learning, has one learned how to use FSD (supervised), where it's good and where to expect problems.

I suggest that they are actually the same thing. You "Learn" to know where it's good. Then you "trust" it.

But people don't generally expect that they have to learn it, they just know they don't trust it.

I really wish that there was a break-in period for the user, things slow get enabled over time.

 

[Kevy Baby]

My point is that until the v12 update, TACC worked perfectly. Stopped at red lights/stop signs, proceeded through green lights.

Your point is factually incorrect. I don't know how else to say it.

TACC does not stop at red lights/stop signs, proceeded through green lights: that is FSD. What I believe you want to say is that prior versions of FSD worked better than v12.

Here is sort of a hierarchy of the Tesla driving automation (yes, there are other functions in EAP and FSD, but I am focusing on just the driving portions)

1. TACC (Traffic Aware Cruise Control) - maintains SPEED, slowing/stopping for vehicles in front of your car and re-accelerating when those cars go. Does not look at anything other than the car in front of yours. Historically was locked out to just highway driving, but I don't see this limitation listed in the manual.
2. AP (Autopilot) - Adds Autosteer to TACC (and Autosteer cannot be enacted without TACC). Autosteer keeps your car in it's lane. Without EAP or FSD, you can't change lanes without disabling. Historically was locked out to just highway driving, but I don't see this limitation listed in the manual.
3. EAP (Enhanced Auto Pilot) - Adds NoAP (Navigate on Auto Pilot) and auto lane changes. Only navigates on highways: from on-ramp to off-ramp.
4. FSD (Full Self Driving) - Adds surface street navigation including stopping at stop lights and stop signs, going around corners, etc. (without getting into the debate about how well it works)

 

[Kevy Baby]

And if you are passing at a high rate of speed, you also get called "what a ****"

 

[3sr+buyer]

Didn't I say that it would be nice if it had a larger follow distance? All I'm saying is that the car can stop.

The ~1 second following distance of FSDS in chill mode is insufficient to stop in an unmasking situation at 60mph. (Unmasking = vehicle ahead changes lanes to reveal a stopped vehicle or other stationary obstacle in the lane ahead.)

 

[SidetrackedSue]

Your point is factually incorrect. I don't know how else to say it.

TACC does not stop at red lights/stop signs, proceeded through green lights: that is FSD. What I believe you want to say is that prior versions of FSD worked better than v12.

I just set up my Non-FSD profile and yes, I can select stop lights and stop signs. As well as navigate on autopilot.

I have paid-for FSD and thus EAP.

I don't know when they were added to my system but they are definitely options on my Autopilot screen as of 15:00 today.

Here, this webpage from the tesla manual has a video showing how to use Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control (Beta)

Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability | Tesla Support

Autopilot is an advanced driver assistance system that enhances safety and convenience behind the wheel. When used properly, Autopilot reduces your overall workload as a driver. Learn more about Autopilot.

www.tesla.com

 

[ewoodrick]

The ~1 second following distance of FSDS in chill mode is insufficient to stop in an unmasking situation at 60mph. (Unmasking = vehicle ahead changes lanes to reveal a stopped vehicle or other stationary obstacle in the lane ahead.)

I believe that it only needs about 1.5 seconds to full stop from 60 mph.
So if it doesn't manage to stop fast enough, it will be at a low speed.

 

[Kevy Baby]

I just set up my Non-FSD profile and yes, I can select stop lights and stop signs. As well as navigate on autopilot.

What do you mean by "Non-FSD profile"? If your car has FSD, then it has FSD. Maybe you set up a profile where you chose "Autosteer" (which IMO is incorrectly labeled: it should be "Autopilot" but that's a separate issue), but that doesn't "delete" the FSD from your car. Yes: the option in that menu item is still there because your car has FSD.

The big question at this point is whether that is an odd by-product of the fact that every (US) car has FSD at the moment or will this be a a new feature for those with just AP and/or have EAP? That currently is an unanswerable question (except possibly by some Tesla engineers though it may still be an open question - who knows?).

I don't know when they were added to my system but they are definitely options on my Autopilot screen as of 15:00 today.

I can't answer that as I don't have FSD (besides this test) so it would have never appeared in my car. But Tesla is constantly changing things with the software so it is possible it wasn't there previously.

Here, this webpage from the tesla manual has a video showing how to use Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control (Beta)

Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability | Tesla Support

Autopilot is an advanced driver assistance system that enhances safety and convenience behind the wheel. When used properly, Autopilot reduces your overall workload as a driver. Learn more about Autopilot.

www.tesla.com

Let me share some excerpts from that page. Let's start with the definition of "Autopilot"

No mention of stopping at stop lights/signs: that doesn't come up until you get to the Full Self Driving Capabilities

HOWEVER, that page also contradicts itself (or was poorly written) by saying that "Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control" falls under AP

Of course, we don't know how things will shake out at the end of this trial period: will those without (paid) FSD have stoplight/sign control? Who knows. Personally, I suspect not, but that's just my speculation.

 

[zoomer0056]

I just set up my Non-FSD profile and yes, I can select stop lights and stop signs. As well as navigate on autopilot.

This sounds like EAP. I don't have EAP, so I really don't know. Can you share a pic of the stop set up screen?

It would seem dangerous to set TACC to stop and then forgot it was reset to not stop.

Currently, my 2022 MSLR has the free FSD (supervised). There's nowhere to set up stops.

 

[Unclepaul]

I notice some people focus on what it does poorly, and hate it.
Others focus on what it does well, is helpful, and like it.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

What do you mean by "Non-FSD profile"? If your car has FSD, then it has FSD. Maybe you set up a profile where you chose "Autosteer" (which IMO is incorrectly labeled: it should be "Autopilot" but that's a separate issue), but that doesn't "delete" the FSD from your car.

Where did I say I was trying to delete FSD from my car?

I can't answer that as I don't have FSD (besides this test) so it would have never appeared in my car. But Tesla is constantly changing things with the software so it is possible it wasn't there previously.

As I said in my post: 1. it was there today at 15:00 and 2. I don't know when it appeared.

Let me share some excerpts from that page. Let's start with the definition of "Autopilot"

I can read. But apparently you can't because I told you to watch the video on that page. Which demonstrates the Stops at Traffic Lights and Stop Signs feature being discussed.

Of course, we don't know how things will shake out at the end of this trial period: will those without (paid) FSD have stoplight/sign control? Who knows. Personally, I suspect not, but that's just my speculation.

If you read the part that you pointed out to me fully, you would see that FSD includes all AP and EAP features.

Everyone that has the free trial of FSD also has all features of EAP. I've just shown you that tesla says that Stops at Traffic Lights and Stop Signs is a feature of Autopilot. That section of the manual (not some random internet source or blowhard in a forum but the manual) says so.

Don't ask that I go back to my car and take pictures of my screen. Go look at yours and see if what the manual says is true on your car.

 

[Krugerrand]

Even with today's limitations, for me FSD takes a LOT of stress off of driving. Sure, you may not think that driving creates stress, but it does. Once you get accustomed to a version of FSD, you tend to know what it can do and what it can't. You can definitely relieve stress.
I'm at the point where I set a destination, review the route and then just let the car go.

Speed thing is pretty good at speeds that aren't 45-55.

People have noted the reduction of stress and tiredness when using FSD for years. People are unaware how much energy it takes for the brain to ‘drive a car’. But anyone who fought heavy traffic for hours a day, or long distanced travel and used FSD, immediately noticed how much less tired they were when they reached their destination. They also noticed that where driving used to be a chore, it started to be something they enjoyed and looked forward to doing. Some even have said that sitting in traffic just using TACC became time they looked forward to to unwind.

Anyone who’s had someone they know suffer a severe stroke or other head injury watches firsthand the amount of energy the brain needs and consumes trying to do simple tasks. Something as simple at bringing a fork of food to the mouth can exhaust a person.

 

[Kevy Baby]

Where did I say I was trying to delete FSD from my car?

I didn't say that: I was trying to understand what you meant by "Non-FSD profile" and was making the point that no matter what setting you set in that profile, your car has FSD.

I can read. But apparently you can't because I told you to watch the video on that page. Which demonstrates the Stops at Traffic Lights and Stop Signs feature being discussed.

I can read and I watched the video and knew how to do what they did in that video before watching it. Not sure what your point is here. (BTW: I DID look at my screen and it is a little different than what is shown in the video.)

If you read the part that you pointed out to me fully, you would see that FSD includes all AP and EAP features.

Again: not sure what your point is. I know what is included. I believe your attack on me started in response to my post #82 above which clearly states "that FSD includes all AP and EAP features"

If you read the part that you pointed out to me fully, you would see that FSD includes all AP and EAP features.

Everyone that has the free trial of FSD also has all features of EAP.

Go back and read the screenshots from the manual. As I said, the manual CONTRADICTS ITSELF: first it says that stop light/sign capabilities don't come into play until FSD (second screenshot) and then later says it's under Autopilot (third screenshot).

We won't collectively know whether drivers without FSD will have stoplight control until after this trial period is over and people go back to having just AP. Trying to answer that question now is pointless.

I've just shown you that tesla says that Stops at Traffic Lights and Stop Signs is a feature of Autopilot. That section of the manual (not some random internet source or blowhard in a forum but the manual) says so.

Do you realize that the screenshots I put in my previous post are from the manual you linked to? Not some random internet source or some blowhard: YOUR source (which I would have used as well).

You keep trying to insist that Stop Sign/Light is a part of AP. No one knows that for a fact right now. I am not saying that it won't be down the road, but I am saying I doubt it (since it wasn't part of AP before this trial). But I can admit I may be wrong about my speculation IF that turns out to be the case.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

Again: not sure what your point is. I know what is included. I believe your attack on me started in response to my post #82 above which clearly states "that FSD includes all AP and EAP features"

Twice you unequivocally stated AP does not stop at stop signs. That's what I am reacting to. You dismissed KelvinMace saying that for him before V12 TACC stopped at stop signs. Never once did you ask him if he had EAP. You insisted that FSD is what is stopping cars at stop lights and stop signs.

@zoomer0056 already covered it, but you have FSD: AP does not stop at stop signs and red lights. There have been sales on FSD, including one in 2018 for $3K (it was $5K or $6K at the time).

Your point is factually incorrect. I don't know how else to say it.

TACC does not stop at red lights/stop signs, proceeded through green lights: that is FSD. What I believe you want to say is that prior versions of FSD worked better than v12.

 

[3sr+buyer]

People have noted the reduction of stress and tiredness when using FSD for years. People are unaware how much energy it takes for the brain to ‘drive a car’. But anyone who fought heavy traffic for hours a day, or long distanced travel and used FSD, immediately noticed how much less tired they were when they reached their destination. They also noticed that where driving used to be a chore, it started to be something they enjoyed and looked forward to doing. Some even have said that sitting in traffic just using TACC became time they looked forward to to unwind.

Yes, in long distance drives, I found TACC and Autosteer to be nice on light traffic freeways. However, I do not use them in moderate to heavy traffic situations, because TACC follows too closely even at the largest following distance setting and requires heightened alertness more of the time (and thus more stress and tiredness eventually). I found the same issue with FSDS when I tried it a few times, even when set to chill mode.

In theory, TACC or FSDS could be useful as a traffic jam valet in very heavy traffic, but I found that TACC was too jerky when I tried it in that situation, and have not tried FSDS in such a situation.

 

[Kevy Baby]

Twice you unequivocally stated AP does not stop at stop signs. That's what I am reacting to. You dismissed KelvinMace saying that for him before V12 TACC stopped at stop signs. Never once did you ask him if he had EAP. You insisted that FSD is what is stopping cars at stop lights and stop signs.

And you keep unequivocally argue that it absolutely is AP that stops at stop signs/lights. The truth is that you (nor I) don't know that if this is a function of AP moving forward (including the current test). With the ambiguity of the manual, we will not know one way or the other until the trial ends and people go back to just AP.

What I was "unequivocally dismissing" in @KelvinMace's posts was their instance (over several posts) that PRIOR TO this current test that TACC/AP was capable of stopping at stop signs/lights. That is factually incorrect. (Although I will admit that I did not make it clear in my post that I was referring to previous versions.)

 

[Kevy Baby]

...I found that TACC was too jerky when I tried it in that situation, and have not tried FSDS in such a situation.

What I do when I am in stop-and-go traffic using AP is switch to Chill Mode. This GREATLY reduces the jerkiness.

 

[dtdtdt]

What I was "unequivocally dismissing" in @KelvinMace's posts was their instance (over several posts) that PRIOR TO this current test that TACC/AP was capable of stopping at stop signs/lights. That is factually incorrect. (Although I will admit that I did not make it clear in my post that I was referring to previous versions.)

I suspect there is some confusion because there are two modes referred to on TMC as “TACC”. There is the TACC you can select directly from the Autopilot settings. This one does not handle stop signs or lights. The other TACC is the portion of FSD you used to be able to turn on with a single pull on the stalk. (Two pulls to get FSD steering also.) This TACC took care of speed limits, stopping and going, but you did the steering. This mode is missing from the latest FSD. (I’m not sure which TACCs were available with EAP.)

 

[arbitrage000]

I still don't understand this stopping at stoplights....the car tries to stop at every light regardless of color. Green light.....stop....I don't get the logic of this. I now understand (from replies on this forum) that if you just tap the accelerator when it starts to decelerate it will continue through the green light (red light also?...haven't tested that). But I always thought it would only stop at yellow and red. Why on earth would it start slowing for a green light? When it first did this to me during my trial (when I wanted to turn off drive on city streets portion of FSD and try the EAP with stop light control) I was going 110km/h on a highway and therefore it started to brake fairly hard at a totally unexpected moment for traffic behind me. Crazy stupid.

 

[Midnightsun]

The NHTSA will not allow Tesla to have the car function like "people do" at stop signs where, the vast majority of normal drivers are actually breaking the law. By law, you have to stop behind the stop sign, then inch up and stop again until you can see traffic in both directions before going. Sound familiar? The car is doing this because Tesla was mandated to make it do this.

Do the cars in the US using FSD actually come to a full stop 2 times like you describe at a stop sign? In Canada the correct way it to stop before the stop sign and then proceed unless visibility is obscured and then you treat it as if it were a yield situation. Bottom line is V12.3 FSD does come to a complete stop and then immediately accelerates rather quickly. This is easily overridden by slightly pressing the accelerator before coming to a complete stop and then the car just goes just like people normally drive or if you prefer turns it into a rolling stop.

I come to this one intersection in the mornings which is a 4 way stop and usually there are cars on all corners. I was very surprised to see how well and quick (without hesitation) FSD handled the departure. It is definitely capable in determining correctly when it is my turn to go and does so rather affirmably.

 

[GateFather]

Do the cars in the US using FSD actually come to a full stop 2 times like you describe at a stop sign? In Canada the correct way it to stop before the stop sign and then proceed unless visibility is obscured and then you treat it as if it were a yield situation. Bottom line is V12.3 FSD does come to a complete stop and then immediately accelerates rather quickly. This is easily overridden by slightly pressing the accelerator before coming to a complete stop and then the car just goes just like people normally drive or if you prefer turns it into a rolling stop.

I come to this one intersection in the mornings which is a 4 way stop and usually there are cars on all corners. I was very surprised to see how well and quick (without hesitation) FSD handled the departure. It is definitely capable in determining when it is my turn to go and does so rather affirmably.

At least where I live in a more rural area USA, stop signs are often set back a decent distance from the actual crossing road. So the two stops are one before the stop sign and another up where the cars cameras can see cross traffic.