S85 vs P85+ ... Is the P+ Worth It at Today's Pricing (Feb 2014)?

[xza8]

I test drove the P85 (they didn't have the P85+ or the S85 at Santana Row) and ordered the P85+.

I'm glad I ordered the P85+ after:

1) Test driving the Ghibli Q4 spiritedly... I realized that I like to take corners fast

2) Driving more in the South Bay in a rental 2013 E350... there are definitely a lot more curvy roads/on ramps/off ramps than I'm used to back home in Canada

However, after sitting in a Panamera, M5, CLS63, and test driving a Ghibli... I will miss the feel of a luxury car and the sound of a sports car. The interior of the Model S is not bad but it's no comparison to the Panamera and the CLS (not a fan of the BMW interiors). Despite minimal fuel savings as I work from home... I decided to go with the Tesla as it is more practical for someone about to start a family. Hopefully this satisfy my want for a Lambo/Ferrari.

21" Grey Turbine Wheels
85 kWh Performance Model S
Alcantara Headliner
All Glass Panoramic Roof
Black Nappa Leather Seats
Black Solid Paint
Carbon Fiber Spoiler
Fog Lights
Parking Sensors
Performance Plus
Piano Black Décor
Rear Facing Seats
Smart Air Suspension
Supercharger Enabled
Tech Package
Tesla Red Brake Calipers
Ultra High Fidelity Sound

 

[Pollux]

Great choices. You're going to love this car.

You might also plan for an immediate application of Opti Coat (or equivalent) to enhance and protect the paint. On top of that, you might also consider applying Xpel paint protection film (or a similar product), over the entire car, which will put a thin, barely visible layer of transparent plastic between your car's paintwork and road debris. It will not prevent dents. It will absolutely help your car with bird damage, gravel strikes, door dings from other cars, etc. I have found from my driving that the shape of the car somehow causes lots of muck, slush, etc., to get kicked up on the back side of the car. So, while many people get along just fine with Xpel just on the front, I find that I am more comfortable wrapping the entire car in Xpel.

More importantly, you should consider tinting your rear window, panoramic roof, and possibly side windows. My kids have reported heat fatigue in the rear-facing seats, which is a well-known and widely-reported issue on these forums. Tinting the rear window dramatically reduced this problem. Tinting the roof and side windows also helped. In Massachusetts, it's illegal to tint the front window, or we may have done that one, too.

Good luck!

Alan

I test drove the P85 (they didn't have the P85+ or the S85 at Santana Row) and ordered the P85+.

I'm glad I ordered the P85+ after:

1) Test driving the Ghibli Q4 spiritedly... I realized that I like to take corners fast

2) Driving more in the South Bay in a rental 2013 E350... there are definitely a lot more curvy roads/on ramps/off ramps than I'm used to back home in Canada

However, after sitting in a Panamera, M5, CLS63, and test driving a Ghibli... I will miss the feel of a luxury car and the sound of a sports car. The interior of the Model S is not bad but it's no comparison to the Panamera and the CLS (not a fan of the BMW interiors). Despite minimal fuel savings as I work from home... I decided to go with the Tesla as it is more practical for someone about to start a family. Hopefully this satisfy my want for a Lambo/Ferrari.

21" Grey Turbine Wheels
85 kWh Performance Model S
Alcantara Headliner
All Glass Panoramic Roof
Black Nappa Leather Seats
Black Solid Paint
Carbon Fiber Spoiler
Fog Lights
Parking Sensors
Performance Plus
Piano Black Décor
Rear Facing Seats
Smart Air Suspension
Supercharger Enabled
Tech Package
Tesla Red Brake Calipers
Ultra High Fidelity Sound

 

[Lou Olsen]

I'm with efusco on this. The answer depends on who wins the battle between your practical mind and your emotional mind. The real difference in performance between the P85 and the regular motor is in the 0-60 acceleration. More like 0-30, really. The difference is a lot smaller from 30-100 or so. I'm guessing that most of us will rarely get a chance to test the limits of the + suspension around here ( I live in the Bay Area). The standard set-up is awesome because of the relatively wide track, low center of gravity and almost perfect weight distribution.
So, in a practical sense, you don't really need it.
BUT......You're 27 years old, about to start a family and seem to love driving in a "performance" kind of way. If you listen to this part of your brain, you will realize that the full-tilt set-up is about as close to humanly possible to an electric road racing car. That is very compelling from a "coolest thing ever" standpoint. Whether its worth the extra money is up to you....

 

[ohmman]

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I couldn't justify the $11k bump over the P with 19s. As someone who has no interest in 21s, it meant taking the car with wheels I didn't want, paying $11k, selling the 21s and replacing with 19s. For me, the value proposition was in the P - and I agree with the above - it was an emotional decision of figuring I'm nearly there, why not. Practically speaking, the S85 would have been more than enough car for me and my family.

 

[lolachampcar]

Ok, so the difference between a P and a P+ are-
Sway bars front and rear
Rear rims/tires
Rear Upper link bushings
Rear Toe link bushings
Rear Torque link bushings
(note: all production currently uses the uprated rear lower a-arm bushings)
Dampers (and maybe air spring rate although I did not test this but did have different part numbers)

The following is just my opinion-
Bigger bars drive head snatch where your head is tossed from side to side when you hit a pot hole with one front wheel or you go over a sleeping policeman at an angle. I do not like this.
Bigger bars are needed to control roll which MS, with its low Center of Gravity, really does not have much of.
Bigger bars will improve turn in feel a bit.
I do not feel MS needs the P+ bars and think the car is better without them.

In my testing, I had a chance to use a high angle misalignment ball bearing in one of the sets of rear upper links I was testing. I could not feel the slightest bit of difference so I replaced them with a set of links using standard P bushings. Again, I could not feel a lick of difference.

The order of importance on bushings would be-
1 rear sub-frame and lower a-arms
2 rear upper links
3 torque and toe links

If the upper link bushings do not make a bit of difference in feel AND the P already has the uprated sub-frame and lower a-arm bushings, why would anyone put effort into getting the torque and toe bushings?

Lastly, my quick shock dyno work leads me to believe there is little difference between P and P+ rear dampers. There is a big difference between P and P+ front dampers and I think it is this difference that dramatically improves the feel from the front end.

If I am correct in the above, and that is a big if, it would seem the best possible value would be achieved by buying the P and putting 2 X something like $1800 each worth of front damper assemblies.

Am I missing something here?



On a related thought line, are there any P owners out there that would like to try a lower a-arm swap (if needed, depends on ViN) and front damper swap out? I would think these two changes would produce a car that compares favorably with a P+.

Any P+ owners care to drive their and my car back to back and offer another opinion?

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

^^
sounds good. Just add staggered wheels for coming out of corners + stickier rubber

I might need to consider front dampers after hearing your analysis

 

[lolachampcar]

I think it would be very interesting to separate out the wheel thing altogether and just evaluate suspension. The wheels/tires are the easy part and can be done at any time.

 

[brianman]

sleeping policeman

I had to look this one up.

 

[ohmman]

I had to look this one up.

I took it literally until you posted that.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

sleeping policeman

I had to look this one up.

Me too. I love Google image search.

 

[3mp_kwh]

aaronw,
You can get a vast majority of the + feel by moving to Pilots (I'd suggest the cheaper of the PS2 and PSS, I really can not keep them straight) and, assuming you have an early serial number like I did (42xxish), changing out the lower control arms in the rear.

the Pilot Super Sports are the newer tire. Cheaper, too, I think. They grip fantastic, for a street tire. I was in a 911 turbo (2012) helping a guy out, who showed up at a track with them on his car. Lots of track Porsches, or folks who want to give it try, show up on the more common street PS2's, which date back at least a half dozen years, and are also good. Given the choice, I'd go PSS.

I really think lolachampcar's efforts shed wisdom. He's not just "A/B'd" S and P versions, but may have the most experience with the individual mods. My gut tells me No. 1, don't get caught up trying to make an MS something it's not. No. 2, You'll pay a lot more for the power jump than you will getting to a more ideal suspension. I've been thinking "it's only ~360-415HP", but it sounds like there is more to it, at launch?

One could order a coil 'S', and have the front Bilsteins sent out for revalving, to P+ spec. Bushings may not be the same, but from the other thread it sounds like VINs after 7000-8000 already have the better control arms.

At some point in "sporting" things up, a spare Miata might make much more sence

 

[lolachampcar]

I was just told by someone ordering some rear upper links that they are now only available with the stiffer P+ bushings. It sounds as though Tesla is moving towards the whole back end being P+ spec on bushings or, put a different way, there will only be one bushing spec and it will be P+.

WRT sending the dampers out to be revalved, I wish and that was the very first call I made when I got my P last February and realized the car could use more bump and rebound. The dampers are OEM crimp sealed and Bilstein USA will not rebuild/revalve them. They also do not have/sell revalvable/adjustable dampers in MS configuration. That conversation was almost a year ago so the answer may have changed. Alternatively, someone with more "juice" in the street car side of things may have other ways of getting it done. It would most certainly be cheaper than two complete front P+ damper assemblies from Tesla.

Lastly, I just ran a buddy with a S the other day. The difference between a 5.2 and 4.2 zero to sixty can be a not very impressive 1 second or a very impressive 25% faster. I can say without hesitation that the 25% faster is a better description of reality. I've kept from commenting much one's choice of S v. P but, after this last little run, find myself seeing tremendous value in the P package.

 

[ohmman]

I've kept from commenting much one's choice of S v. P but, after this last little run, find myself seeing tremendous value in the P package.

I appreciate hearing that considering my late upgrade. It helps quell some of my doubting, and maybe I'll have to take it to Sonoma Raceway for a run or two after I fit the wheels.

 

[DaveT]

Hi all, I need your input here. So, my brother is looking into a P85+ (he found a great deal on a used one) but I suggested him to look into a P85 or S85 (with 19" wheels). The reason being is because his wife will be driving the car half the time and is coming from a minivan. I think the P85+ handling and suspension will be too tight for her (making it kind of difficult for her to drive and/or enjoy). On a side note, my wife has test driven a S85, P85, and P85+ and she didn't like the P85+ because of the tight handling/suspension.

So here's the question, do you think if he switched out the P85+ wheels to 19" wheels that this would make the car easier to drive for his wife? Or would a P85/S85 with 19" wheels be significantly easier?

 

[lolachampcar]

I believe the issue is one of compliance. Some people find the P+ to be too harsh (think M5 versus 535i although it is not that drastic). If you prefer a smoother ride, the P85 would be the best choice as the 21s are probably less than 20% of the difference. Put differently, simply changing wheels/tires may not get you where you want to be on ride quality.

 

[ohmman]

If you read back earlier in this thread, 100thMonkey mentions that this is his configuration. He feels it's a great setup. I strongly considered it, but didn't want to eat the upgrade price, plus the wheel price. Additionally, I have the rear facing child seats and had worries that if my kids wound up back there on longer trips, they'd get jiggled apart...

That said, if the price is right, I'd get the P85+ and swap the wheels. He could always set his wife's steering to "comfort" mode, which would probably make the car appear more compliant.

 

[Rodolfo Paiz]

As noted early on, this question is really impossible to answer in any way other than by driving both configurations and making a personal choice. It is, first and foremost, a question of personal preference; but that is further complicated by issues of power, torque, acceleration, handling, and how the car will be driven.

I have a P85 because the P+ had not yet been announced when I received my car (VIN 6xxx). I would probably have bought the top-of-the-line version if it had been available at the time, but in retrospect I'm happy that it was not available because my wife and kids all love the P and all thought the tighter handling of the P+ to be less comfortable for them. The P85 is a great compromise: it gives me a very sporty car, while it gives my family a very comfortable car.

Lastly, the phrases "starting a family" and "volatile industry" got my attention. If you can afford to get the best while still having sufficient reserves for unexpected crises such as a very sick child or job loss, that's great. Just make sure that you're not putting yourself in a position where you might have to sell the car and take a significant loss in a year or two because the fertilizer hit the fan blades and you didn't have sufficient depth to your financial resources.

 

[FluxCap]

Hi all, I need your input here. So, my brother is looking into a P85+ (he found a great deal on a used one) but I suggested him to look into a P85 or S85 (with 19" wheels). The reason being is because his wife will be driving the car half the time and is coming from a minivan. I think the P85+ handling and suspension will be too tight for her (making it kind of difficult for her to drive and/or enjoy). On a side note, my wife has test driven a S85, P85, and P85+ and she didn't like the P85+ because of the tight handling/suspension.

So here's the question, do you think if he switched out the P85+ wheels to 19" wheels that this would make the car easier to drive for his wife? Or would a P85/S85 with 19" wheels be significantly easier?

Dave, I still own a race-prepped Evo VIII so I certainly know stiff suspensions, but when I got my P85 I specifically wanted the cushiest ride possible for our daily driver, as there are just too many bad roads near us to justify the few times we find ourselves on a wide open onramp and in the mood for the fun that stiffer shocks, springs and suspension tuning allow for. So I insisted on air suspension and higher-profile tires (19-inch wheels) without the P85+ suspension modifications.

I'm saving the race suspension for my Model E purchase, I think . Maybe by that time we will figure out how to hotwire our batteries for 1000hp .

Happy to chat further about this offline if you want, but I think staying away from P85+ in your case makes a lot of sense.

 

[jerry33]

Hi all, I need your input here. So, my brother is looking into a P85+ (he found a great deal on a used one) but I suggested him to look into a P85 or S85 (with 19" wheels). The reason being is because his wife will be driving the car half the time and is coming from a minivan.

I would have thought that the steering setting would have made more difference than the suspension stiffness. Set it to comfort and it won't be that much different than the minivan.

 

[DaveT]

Thanks, everyone. Super helpful.

I'm curious about air suspension, does it effect the ride in any way (vs standard suspension), and if so how?