Model S to the Nürburgring Next Week!

[Todd Burch]

Serious question, have you any direct experience with track racing? Particularly on circuits similar to the Nurburgring?

I’d fully expect the 3P to be faster than any Model S.

I don't race on the track no, but I am a mechanical engineer. Really the only significant advantage the 3 would have is in weight.

However, the S has a larger battery with higher power output, more torque and horsepower, and a better suspension. I think it's really hard for anyone to argue for sure which benefits outweight the other.

We will know in a week.

 

[JayTee]

Serious question, have you any direct experience with track racing? Particularly on circuits similar to the Nurburgring?

I’d fully expect the 3P to be faster than any Model S.

I have done many track days and stock for stock I cant see a Raven S beating a 3P on a racetrack either. Yes the S is faster straight line but its heavy and the stock brakes will fade badly after a few corners. With big brakes and semi slick tyres it would be quicker. The 3P would probably do about 8.00 based on the fact it is quicker than a BMW M3 around a track as tested by top gear.

 

[Realist]

Serious question, have you any direct experience with track racing? Particularly on circuits similar to the Nurburgring?

I’d fully expect the 3P to be faster than any Model S.

I agree on that. Model 3 Performance should be close to the Taycan Turbo S on the track even over a longer period.

Model S P100D Raven? I don‘t think so.

One comment on the Suspension: I don‘t think the Model S air suspension will work on this track. It‘s just not designed for that. The Model S is simply not meant to be taken on the Ring. This is stupid.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

It's unlikely the current Model S can beat the Taycan. It cannot slowdown fast enough and turn at high speeds.
I think this is an introduction of a new model.

Or just introduction of new software. They have track mode that dramatically improves both of those for the P3D. If they have something similar in-house for the Raven Performance S, that changes a lot of the variables.

 

[willow_hiller]

I'm surprised that nobody has commented on the fact that Elon Musk has said "next week" and it looks like there's already a Model S in Nürburg for testing. Surely this means that Tesla has been working on this for a while. It's rare for Elon to say "next week" and actually have something happen within 1 week.

 

[larmor]

I wouldn't mind if tesla introduced a track edition or track upgrade. A direct comparison with a turbo s taycan prices out over 220k. Tesla has always said the model S is their halo car, and until the roadster comes, which will be the halo supercar, a performance upgrade or option is a great idea. Does tesla maintain any relationship with maclaren, in the past or currently?

 

[sillydriver]

An article about the Taycan mentioned its Ring time was slower than the one set by a Giulia Quadrifoglio. I checked Wikipedia and the Giulia set 7:41 vs the Taycan's 7:42. But I recall that at Willow Springs last year a Tesla M3 Performance ran 1:21.49, beating the Quadrifoglio's record lap time at that track of 1:22.78. So if Elon can come up with an MS that runs as well on tracks as his M3P, then beating Taycan's time is not out of the question.

 

[Krash]

...Does tesla maintain any relationship with maclaren, in the past or currently?

They had one with Saleen. That didn't go too well.

 

[Saghost]

They had one with Saleen. That didn't go too well.

Did they?

I had the impression that Saleen bought their S retail and modified it themselves without discussing anything with Tesla or having any sort of partnership - so Tesla left them swinging in the wind with the dual drive announcement and P85D.

Koenigsegg might be a better choice - they're already dabbling in serious electric drivetrain on their own. There's also Rimac...

 

[willow_hiller]

YouTube promo of the Taycan's lap:

Looks like it wasn't quite as stock as a lot of Tweets seem to imply.

 

[Thumper]

I hope Tesla can get a driver with maximum Nürburgring experience. Local knowledge is more valuable even than absolute driving ability in cases with so many corners. As evidence, I offer the example of Jerry Hansen, a wealthy stock broker form Milwaukee who had a zillion hours around Road America under his belt. He drove competitively against the world's best in both Can Am and Formula 5000 with his own cars. Note Road America is only 4.2 miles long. Hire a ring specialist if you can. I'm sure the Taycan record was set by someone who had driven the car for miles and miles on the exact course, and had many more miles in other cars as well.

 

[Todd Burch]

DC/AC inverter is not symmetric, i.e. just because you can pull 450KW from the battery, convert it to AC to drive the motor, doesn't mean you can take 450KW from the motor, rectify it to DC to charge the battery. The rectifier which can do only 50KW, will burn at 450KW.

Where are you getting the info that it's limited to 50 kW?

 

[seattlite2004]

YouTube promo of the Taycan's lap:

Looks like it wasn't quite as stock as a lot of Tweets seem to imply.

Right...maybe Musk/Tesla will also show a non-prodcution ... maybe pre-production car also. Gotta love that Porsche/Taycan made them do this...competition is great!!

 

[MP3Mike]

Serious question, have you any direct experience with track racing? Particularly on circuits similar to the Nurburgring?

I’d fully expect the 3P to be faster than any Model S.

I have done many track days and stock for stock I cant see a Raven S beating a 3P on a racetrack either. Yes the S is faster straight line but its heavy and the stock brakes will fade badly after a few corners. With big brakes and semi slick tyres it would be quicker. The 3P would probably do about 8.00 based on the fact it is quicker than a BMW M3 around a track as tested by top gear.

Do people really not pay attention to anything? That last Model S that I have seen times for on the ring comes in at 8:50, but that was an old Model S. Lots of changes have happened since then:

Car 0-60 Ring Time
Model 3P 3.2 9:00
Model S P85D 3.1 8:50
Model S P90DL 2.8
Model S P100DL 2.4?
Model S Raven P100DL 2.4 (But people report 2.2)
Taycan 2.6 7:42 Pre-production

With the new Raven version of the Model S they shouldn't hit the throttling anywhere near as quick and it shouldn't be as dramatic.

If they put the ABS/stability control from the Model 3 into it and just haven't released track mode yet, there is probably a lot more capability in there.

 

[Todd Burch]

There is no way a stock Raven Model S will do sub 7:42 at the Ring, even assuming it can run a lap full steam without overheating the battery and/or motors. The brakes are just not up to it. And regen at the levels available now is basically irrelevant. You need massive brakes that can scrub off tons of speed corner after corner without any fade. Porsche knows the Ring - remember when everyone thought the 918 would be the slowest out of the La Ferrari and McLaren P1, then it came out, laid down a 6:57, and Ferrari and McLaren then both refused to release their times? Guess what, the Taycan Turbo S's brake rotors are larger than on a Porsche 918!!

I'm ready to eat these words, but unless Elon brings a seriously modified S to the Ring, it's not going to happen.

Question: Why would changing the brakes on the Raven be considered "seriously modified"?

Track mode (software update), upgraded wheels and tires, and upgraded brakes could easily be a "track" package that would be relatively minor to implement and begin selling immediately from Tesla's perspective.

 

[Artful Dodger]

Raven is an entirely different animal.

The rear AC motor is unchanged in Raven vs. the previous S/X. So we'd expect there will still be some heat-soak related power rollback issues on the track, although with the SRPM motor from the Model 3 used as the front motor in Raven this situation will be improved.

Cheers!

 

[Todd Burch]

This will likely be done with a Raven S that has *some* hardware changes from what they're currently selling. Might be a track package that they start selling immediately.

Upgraded brakes, track mode, upgraded wheels/tires, and software changes could be all that's needed.

I don't feel the need to speculate here any further, but this thread will be fun to revisit next week.

Elon used to own a McLaren F1, so he's not oblivious to this stuff. I seriously doubt he'd announce this without knowing how well the S will do.

 

[thegruf]

First off - bring it on, great publicity for EVs all around.
Second - if Tesla do actually beat the Taycan time, honestly I would consider that truly epic to beat a specialist sportscar manufacturer who have been studying Tesla for the last 7 years.

However ...

I believe we all need to be acutely aware that with EVs more than any other vehicles before of the opportunity for gaming the test. And I mean this for both Porsche and Tesla alike. Inevitably this will result of partisan cries of foul play.

Software can be uploaded remotely in the blink of an eye, or may even already be present.
Motors and batteries can be run hotter than street standard for a limited time.
Charging rates can be abused for endurance trials

Okay so we take them with a pinch of salt then, but when owners cars are available surely they can replicate the test for genuine results with stock software? Maybe / maybe not. There's geofencing to take into account.

example: Geofence Nurburgring to allow allow a hot lap in stock software is absolutely possible.

This does not lead to suspicion on Tesla any more than Porsche. Let's face it VAG have already got a track record in exactly this with the emission scandal, they have been known to actively map independent test companies routes to rig results, so anything they claim most certainly has to be viewed with a degree of scepticism.

that said .. popcorn at the ready, it's going to be fun

 

[dk10438]

I don't race on the track no, but I am a mechanical engineer. Really the only significant advantage the 3 would have is in weight.

However, the S has a larger battery with higher power output, more torque and horsepower, and a better suspension. I think it's really hard for anyone to argue for sure which benefits outweight the other.

We will know in a week.

gonna have to disagree here. The weight of the MS is a huge disadvantage compared to M3. Lowering weight improves basically every positive aspect of trackability. Braking, acceleration, cornering. Improving power just improves acceleration.

I've never driven a Raven so I can't really comment on how much better the suspension is on that car. However, I can tell you that the pre Raven MS performance doesn't handle particularly well. The steering is loose, there's body roll, and the car in general just feels heavy.

I think the only way that this works for the MS is if Tesla offers a "Track pack" option which gives it some sort of coil suspension, lighter wheels with better rubber, upgraded brakes and maybe some software upgrades to improve the regen...

 

[dk10438]

This will likely be done with a Raven S that has *some* hardware changes from what they're currently selling. Might be a track package that they start selling immediately.

Upgraded brakes, track mode, upgraded wheels/tires, and software changes could be all that's needed.

I don't feel the need to speculate here any further, but this thread will be fun to revisit next week.

Elon used to own a McLaren F1, so he's not oblivious to this stuff. I seriously doubt he'd announce this without knowing how well the S will do.

haha, you literally wrote the same thing while I was typing.