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In my opinion it all depends on what's included at that price point.
My examples might not be the best ones but the Porsche Cayenne ranges from $48K for a base model to $107K (before options) for a Cayenne Turbo. The Panamera starts at $74K and goes to $173K for a Turbo S (or $136K for a Turbo). Porsche probably sells a lot more Cayennes than anything else in their lineup and the majority of those are probably <$60K. What I'm trying to get at is as long as Tesla equips Model S with standard features for its price segment having a range-topping version available for those that want one (at ~$90K) shouldn't be much of an issue.
smorgasbord
Active Member
Fair enough. I just went to bmwusa.com and got these prices for upgrades on a 535i sedan:
prem leather: $2450
prem hifi+nav+park dist+rear camera+heated front seats+ipod connector: $4900
prem paint: $550
HUD: $1300
panoramic moonroof+wood trim+autodim mirrors: $2100 (for an X5)
I wouldn't be surprised if the 17" touchscreen effectively locks out options for 3rd party nav and sound head units.
Exactly, all those options totaled are ~$11,500. From the Model S base price: 57.5k + 20k + 11.5k = 89k. I've heard numerous times the Sig, after rebate, is about 80k and 89k before rebate is fairly close to that. 95k before rebate isn't. I've also heard tell, I think from Roadster owners(?), that the Sig package generally is slightly cheaper than if you got all the options separately. All of which makes me wonder what all is involved in the 95k number.
I'm hoping 95k is just a misstatement. As Todd said, that's getting in the super car range, not the Infinity/BMW/Lexus market. Comparing it to the Porsche doesn't work. Tesla has said an EV car in the Model S range is comparable to a ICE car $10-20k less in price due to EV effeciencies. Comparing the model S to the Porsche $60-100k is comparing to the wrong niche when considering the EV vs. ICE price adjustments.
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Please forgive me if I'm misinterpreting your post. Yes, over the life of a car, an EV is going to be much cheaper to own. That is very much a fact and of no need for discussion, really. That being said I don't think someone buying a $50K+ vehicle is too concerned about that. When it comes to comparisons, off the top of my head the only $30-$40K cars that might be cross-shopped with Model S are an Acura TL or TSX, both of those vehicles are in the $35-$45K range.
Regardless, Tesla will probably sell more base (or nearly-base) Model S' than anything else. This is simply due to the fact that when prices are lower more people can afford it. In other words, even if the Signature series Model S turns out to be $90K+ it shouldn't affect sales much so long as they keep the base Model S at $50K post-credits/rebates.
As for the Porsche comparison, I just picked them because their cars vary greatly in price for even a single model. What I was getting at is that adding a 300-mile pack alone to a base Model S is a 40% cost increase. Porsche does something similar with packages that increase performance and I haven't read many complaints about that practice. :redface:
This is definitely true. However, limiting the number of Signature series cars automatically makes it exclusive, even if the price wasn't much more than that of a "base" Model S. In my opinion the reason for the Signature models being high priced is two fold. First, they are fully-loaded (AFAIK) and, second, Tesla might be trying to grab a bit of extra cash from "early adopters" with the Signature series (note: that's pure speculation on my part).
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gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
To give a rather crude analogy (with an automotive bent!) from another industry, the Acer Ferrari laptops (recently, the Ferrari One) are priced at a level way higher than the sum of their parts, primarily for the branding and exclusivity. There is indeed a market - albeit limited - for such products. And, Tesla isn't doing any injustice to the Clooneys and Dicaprios of the world that are now ready to trade in their roadsters for something that they could haul the family(?) in ;-)
To each, their own, I suppose. Personally, instead of the Sig, I'll take the base Model S with the 160 mile pack plus a Nissan Leaf, thank you very much :-D
To each, their own, I suppose. Personally, instead of the Sig, I'll take the base Model S with the 160 mile pack plus a Nissan Leaf, thank you very much :-D
Could you do us Europeans a favour? Ask again about IEC 62192-2-2 (Type 2) and 3-phase charging?
About the price, converted to Euro's I guess a Sig would be somewhere around 70k, pretty reasonable imho, a luxurious 5-series costs the same here (due to taxes).
Added to my list. BTW, how do you pronounce Mennekes?
I'm having trouble finding information on that connector/plug (I don't see it on the Mennekes site). Do you have a link to some information about it?
I suspect they won't know the answer, so I want to be as informed as possible about it and maybe even pass along a link or printout or something.
You'd be very mistaken, at least in my case. Price is a big factor and I do my research. I know a lot of software folks that could afford something like this, but they're like me and run the numbers and weigh pros and cons. There's a non-trivial number of detailed oriented people like me that do think about ICE vs. EV and what's a comparable car with that taken into account.
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Norbert
TSLA will win
Yes, I'm sure there is a large number of people who would usually not spend that much money on a car, but would be willing to do so if they can expect to later get some of it back due to savings in gas and maintenance. These would otherwise wait for a more affordable Tesla or a larger range Leaf, before switching from ICE to EV.
smorgasbord
Active Member
For these very speculative guesstimates, $6K is well within the margin of error. We don't even have an options list for the car. For instance, the ones I listed that you refer to don't include the rear facing seats. That's $1700 more on the BMW X5. And, so now we're down to about a $4K difference, which is in the noise.
Tesla needs to find the sweet spot for pricing - too high and they won't sell enough, too low and they won't make enough money on each. I know I'm not qualified to perform a proper market analysis, but there are smart people who do this thing for a living. Any of them here?
Men-ne-kus, but that's how it's pronounced in NL.
The full information about the plug: IEC 62196 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It 'talks' EVSE as well, just like the J1772 plug, except the fact that the "Type 2" plug supports 3-phase, which is the standard in Europe. I just walked over the local market here, spotted 4 3x32A (22kW!!) sockets which are being used by the market for cooling and heating.
Some pictures of the plug:
* http://zooi.widodh.nl/ev/mennekesplug.jpg
* http://zooi.widodh.nl/ev/tech/charging/VDE-AR-E_2623-2-2.jpg
* http://zooi.widodh.nl/ev/tech/charging/mennekes-ev-plug-300.jpg
* http://zooi.widodh.nl/ev/tech/charging/banner07-evbox-mennekes.jpg
Last picture: L1, L2 and L3 == The three phase connectors
In general, the plug supports 1-phase 63A or three-phase 63A, although the current available plugs go up to 32A.
More information about three-phase electricity: Three-phase electric power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As Europeans we simply want a three-phase charger in the Model S, otherwise we'll be limited to 32A
You shouldn't draw any firm conclusions from any of this; I'm told several of the items are very much up in the air at this point. As has been pointed out by others, if you talk to different people at Tesla you often get different answers! We'll have to wait on a formal announcement.
True
I think that is the major downside now, the lack of information.... We all want to know what kind of charging the Model S will support, 1-phase/3-phase/DC, who knows? But we should just keep 'hammering' on Tesla, hopefully they'll release this information soon.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Keep in mind Tesla plans to be profitable mainly through the options. I think they said they have to average about $75k for the Model S to make a decent margin and become a profitable company (and much of that margin will likely have to go paying off loans, administrative costs, and also the stores/rangers). That means there has to be a significant amount of cars that cost more than $75k if they ever hope to average that much.
As for the charging port, it would be most ideal if they implement an early version of J1772 DC (or something similar). It sucks that an adapter is still required even though J1772 is already adopted. Although they still have international concerns (supporting Mennekes in Europe), so the adapter may end up the cheapest/most flexible option.
As for the charging port, it would be most ideal if they implement an early version of J1772 DC (or something similar). It sucks that an adapter is still required even though J1772 is already adopted. Although they still have international concerns (supporting Mennekes in Europe), so the adapter may end up the cheapest/most flexible option.
Is the adapter supposed to be a fixed (but removable with tools) part of the car? If it's something that Tesla can switch out in the field for different uses and countries, that wouldn't be that bad as long as it fits under the charge door and gives us both level 2 and 3 charging either through one or two ports.
I don't think that is known at this point. My guess is that you are correct, it will anchor into the charging port and is only removable with the correct tools. I don't think we'll know for sure until much closer to Model S' launch, however.
When Doug spoke with someone at Tesla they said it wasn't a cable, though. My guess is that Tesla found (or is working on) a way to shorten and combine the plug ends. Kind of like this HDMI-to-DVI adapter but for J1772 and Tesla's proprietary connectors.
