ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Point taken, but don’t tell Elon that 70 and 75 are smaller than 85/90/100.
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LR AWD getting a new battery chemistry for 2023?
- Thread starter Gauss Guzzler
- Start date
The LG versions is
74.5, uses the LG M48 (4800mah cell)
78.8, uses the LG M50 (5000mah cell)
The smaller can top just above 75kWh NFP and the bigger usually tops at 79-79.1.
ZenRockGarden
Active Member
So... M3LR is back on the Tesla site, but with a shorter listed range...
Also, it's "325+" which is a strange way to say it.
My guess: This is prep for the coming M3 "Highlander" changes which trim costs at a slight drop in efficiency. One specific option might be the goal of removing rare-earth magnets from the motors. Another could be battery chemistry details.
Rather than make a new different "M3LR" they just round down the range with a "+" on the end and now it covers both the existing version, and the coming new one?
Also, it's "325+" which is a strange way to say it.
My guess: This is prep for the coming M3 "Highlander" changes which trim costs at a slight drop in efficiency. One specific option might be the goal of removing rare-earth magnets from the motors. Another could be battery chemistry details.
Rather than make a new different "M3LR" they just round down the range with a "+" on the end and now it covers both the existing version, and the coming new one?
No, it is because it hasn't completed EPA testing, so there isn't an official range number to list yet. (But they are confident that it will be at least 325 miles.)
Why would anyone buy this new Long Range? For only $2k more (after tax credit), you can get a bigger battery, apparently with better degradation characteristics, better performance, better brakes, better looking wheels, spoiler, upgraded pedals, and you only lose 10 miles of range at most? Even if you’re worried about ride on the 20” Uberturbines, you could just sell them, buy some 18” wheels, and get better range than the new Long Range. Will they drop the price more, or will they bring the worse battery to the Performance model too? Performance model would probably be EPA rated for 285 miles with this battery… barely higher than the RWD.
Its worth it to a lot of people if they don't qualify for the tax credit (which many Tesla owners don't). Personally, I'd rather get a LR Model Y for near the same price. If I wanted performance, I'd get an M3P over a MYP though.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
On what data are you basing the assumption this new LR battery that nobody has yet to see is “worse” or will have different/worse degradation characteristics?
I used the word “apparently” because it was news to me too, but according to other comments in this thread, this is probably not a new battery at all, but an LG made one that has been used by Tesla in Europe and China for quite a while, and has worse degradation characteristics than the Panasonic batteries used in the US.
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Pretty sure the 18” aeros don’t fit on the M3P. And random aftermarket 18’s that might fit won’t have as good of efficiency as the aeros.
You can get 3rd party aero 18 inch wheels for the M3P which is equivalent to stock efficiency. Also, the M3P may have a 9% bigger battery (82kwh vs. 75kwh) which would offset the loss of aero wheels which would probably provide a 5% benefit (the tire material is far more impactful). Seems like if you can get the full tax credit, the M3P is a far better deal.
Good to know.
I did some quick searching and found these: FastEV EV01(+) Wheels for Tesla Model 3 18" - Satin Black (Set of 4)
Anyone know if there are any other aftermarket 18-inch aerodynamic wheels that fit the M3P?
pdx_m3s
Active Member
Its a bit early yet but it seems like the LG pack holds up slightly better than the Panasonic.
In the research tests it is not unusual to see that the NMC chemistry is slightly more sensitive to temperature than NCA.
Theres no guarantee that it is like that with these batteries. We can hope that it continues to show good result even in warm climates.
E90alex
Active Member
2023 Model 3 LR is 333 with 18” wheels and 315 with 19” wheels. Used to be 358 and 334.
Performance has been unchanged at 315, so no it does not have the new battery.
Thanks for correcting me. I thought the Performance had a longer range than that. I remember the 358 mile range for the LR and didn't expect the wheels to have such a detrimental effect on range. I've deleted my post so others don't read the wrong information.
Did it ever get confirmed that the 2023 Model 3 LR-AWD is being made with LG NMC cells?
If so, is there any clear understanding of the tradeoffs between NMC and NCA in a Tesla?
I've seen posts about NCA having higher supercharging speeds in warm/mild temps but NMC having better cold weather performance. But having more details to go along with these vague notions would be really helpful. (I'm thinking of trading in a 2018 for a 2023, but I'd like to understand these tradeoffs first.)
If so, is there any clear understanding of the tradeoffs between NMC and NCA in a Tesla?
I've seen posts about NCA having higher supercharging speeds in warm/mild temps but NMC having better cold weather performance. But having more details to go along with these vague notions would be really helpful. (I'm thinking of trading in a 2018 for a 2023, but I'd like to understand these tradeoffs first.)
The only EPA Certification application for 2023 involves only a Panasonic 82kWh battery. They got 80.8 kWh from it.
So for now (2023 model) there will not be a LG NMC.
The LG M50 NMC is marked 78.8 kWh. It can reach 79.0-79-1 kWh nominal full pack and this is not enough to get the same EPA range.
If the Model 3 is to be delivered with a LG 78.8 kWh, there needs to be a new EPA test and also the EPA range will be shorter.
The NMC’s charge slower, you probably loose about 5 minutes on a normal SuC v3 session.
Charging performance is overall slower.
The cold weather performance is probably better on the Panasonic, if your question is regering to power. The LG need to have a higher SOC and warmer battery to deliver the full power on a M3P.
In most cases you won’t notice a difference with a LR though.
The Panasonic 82 kWh was initially quite limited at low SOC with a cold battery, but they reduced the limitation and also do not let the battery get as cold at low SOC so the initial issue is not really present.
I do not know about any recent comparing with the latest softwares etc. so I can not say for sure but my guess both will behave OK with low SOC and cold.
I live in a very cold climate, have a M3P refresh with the 82 kWh, often drive with lower SOC and havent haf any issues with low SOC and cold battery lately. (It was very low power at low SOC when the refresh was new)
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
These documents take a while to post. So cars often sell before the documents post.
The Model 3 LR has 333 miles EPA range with 18” wheels rather than 358 so something has changed. And also implies an EPA submission did take place.
I have not been following this, so have no idea what the reason for that reduction is.
In EU we always see these changes before they happen. But this is to 99.999% because @eivissa has the grip about it and serve us with that info
333 to 358 is a huge change….you mean 353?
Just checked the US page…it is 333miles!
Ouch, thats a 7% reduction.
Counting from 80.8 kWh thats about 75 kWh (7% reduction) if having the same efficiency.
This is about the same as the EU version with the smaller LG battery had (74.5 kWh FPWN but usually topped 75 kWh).
Its too low for reasonable being the LG 78.8 kWh anyway.
The 4680 introduced with NMC and not giving space for more than that?
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The highest I've seen is 75,9kWh for the smaller LG 5C / M48 and 79,6kWh for the larger LG 5L / M50. Usually, as you say, 75/79.
To be pedantic, as you want and expect me to be... M48 ist declared as 4600Ah by Tesla, though it is not relevant here as these cells have been phased out from 2022 onwards.
Yes, I agree. All rated range logged data shows the average LG pack holding its capacity for longer than the equivalent Panasonic.
Most people claim that the LG cells are allowing for more power at low cell temp, but my data shows that they are pretty much even at low temps and the Panasonic is more Powerful if the cells get warmer.
It depends on the term full power. Since the constant in Tesla's is barely ever the value power (Watts), but current (Amps) it results in a change of power with every degree of cell temperature (Voltage Sag) or every % of SoC (No load Voltage).
So you start a drive the car feels like it has constant power, but what actually happens is, that while the SOC drops you gain battery temperature which evens out the power available. Though when you leave a DC charger you will loose power with every meter as both SOC and Battery temp will drop right away.
Actually, the Panasonic NCA drops less voltage when under load than the LG NMC which results in the Long Range (980A max) being about 25kW down in power with the LG (325kW vs. 350kW). Same story with Boost + 270A (380kW vs 405kW). Both with a hot pack at 100%, so absolute max power.
For me it is not a big issue, but you still do notice the voltage drop at low SOC with the Panasonic, which doesn't happen with the LG. At ver low SOC I often end up with 80kW in the Panasonic Performance, were the LG still shines with +200kW. This is the LG's main party trick in my opinion...power at low SOC.
I am also convinced that this change is the introduction of thf LG 5L 79kWh Pack in the north American market.
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