New Standard Range Model X and Model S - what's in the battery pack?

[Sunshine Speed]

Hello all. Am I the only one who thinks the new S and X Standard Range have a totally different battery pack? Maybe using 4680 batteries or LFP batteries.
Option1 - SR S and X are using same battery as LR/Plaid, but it's software limited.
Option2 - SR S and X are using 4680 batteries.
Option3 - SR S and X are using new LFP batteries from China.

Everyone says it's #1 but I doubt it.
It could be #2 4680, because S and X are low-volume, and current 4680 cells are experimental and chemistry is often changing.
It could also be #3 LFP, people don't realize that the majority of Tesla batteries sold worldwide every year are LFP batteries.
I predict the SR X price will be $80K sometime before January, enabling the federal EV tax credit of $7500. They could use 4680 batteries for this which definitely qualify, or they could use LFP batteries to qualify for half the credit, if they can prove the raw materials inside the battery came from Australia or Chile or other free-trade countries, before being processed in China into cells and packs.

 

[Richbot]

Considering you can take delivery next month, I think they're just software locking them. I guess we'll find out, but they can do the software lock with almost zero validation other than making sure the throttle/stability control maps work at reduced power.

seems unlikely they'd engineer a brand new pack for a base offering, whcih would also divert 4680 from the other platforms which depend on that cell and are supposed to ramp soon. 4680 would also mean a pack that is about 1" thicker than an 18650 pack, the cells are much taller. Where does that go, unless you lay them on their sides

I could see LFP in the existing 18650 pack structure

 

[Tessellation]

Hello all. Am I the only one who thinks the new S and X Standard Range have a totally different battery pack? Maybe using 4680 batteries or LFP batteries.
Option1 - SR S and X are using same battery as LR/Plaid, but it's software limited.
Option2 - SR S and X are using 4680 batteries.
Option3 - SR S and X are using new LFP batteries from China.

Everyone says it's #1 but I doubt it.
It could be #2 4680, because S and X are low-volume, and current 4680 cells are experimental and chemistry is often changing.
It could also be #3 LFP, people don't realize that the majority of Tesla batteries sold worldwide every year are LFP batteries.
I predict the SR X price will be $80K sometime before January, enabling the federal EV tax credit of $7500. They could use 4680 batteries for this which definitely qualify, or they could use LFP batteries to qualify for half the credit, if they can prove the raw materials inside the battery came from Australia or Chile or other free-trade countries, before being processed in China into cells and packs.

Why do you doubt #1? Hasn't Tesla done this before?

 

[Ethan Ryczek]

Hello all. Am I the only one who thinks the new S and X Standard Range have a totally different battery pack? Maybe using 4680 batteries or LFP batteries.
Option1 - SR S and X are using same battery as LR/Plaid, but it's software limited.
Option2 - SR S and X are using 4680 batteries.
Option3 - SR S and X are using new LFP batteries from China.

Everyone says it's #1 but I doubt it.
It could be #2 4680, because S and X are low-volume, and current 4680 cells are experimental and chemistry is often changing.
It could also be #3 LFP, people don't realize that the majority of Tesla batteries sold worldwide every year are LFP batteries.
I predict the SR X price will be $80K sometime before January, enabling the federal EV tax credit of $7500. They could use 4680 batteries for this which definitely qualify, or they could use LFP batteries to qualify for half the credit, if they can prove the raw materials inside the battery came from Australia or Chile or other free-trade countries, before being processed in China into cells and packs.

It’s software limited because the weight is the exact same as the Long Range on both the SR Model S and Model X

 

[Unclepaul]

This really improves the value proposition for S & X. Will sell every one they can make.

 

[ChadS]

I know it's hard to believe Tesla is just giving away battery when they could put in a smaller pack. But the software lock path, in addition to being by FAR the easiest way to put out a cheaper car (no development, no crash testing, etc), also gives them a possible path to future revenue if they let people unlock the extra capacity.

And I'm sure they can afford to do it. Wasn't the original target price of the refreshed S with the whole, unlocked battery supposed to be 80k? Yeah there's been inflation, but they've also amortized a lot of the changes they made.

 

[glide]

This really improves the value proposition for S & X. Will sell every one they can make.

Not really. The value proposition was in the range. An MX with a rated range of 269 miles for $90K is not great.

 

[Sunshine Speed]

Not really. The value proposition was in the range. An MX with a rated range of 269 miles for $90K is not great.

Agreed. But here is what DOES have a great value proposition:
A Refresh SR Model X with HW4 sold for $80K ($72,500 or $76,250 after federal tax credit ), with 269 mile range, using CATL M3P LFP battery packs. The Tesla factories are already likely upgrading the Highland Model 3 to this LFP pack, so why not use the same LFP cells and similar pack in the cheaper S and X. Less KWH and less range, but same overall weight as LR/Plaid because LFP cells are less energy dense.

 

[Tessellation]

Agreed. But here is what DOES have a great value proposition:
A Refresh SR Model X with HW4 sold for $80K ($72,500 or $76,250 after federal tax credit ), with 269 mile range, using CATL M3P LFP battery packs. The Tesla factories are already likely upgrading the Highland Model 3 to this LFP pack, so why not use the same LFP cells and similar pack in the cheaper S and X. Less KWH and less range, but same overall weight as LR/Plaid because LFP cells are less energy dense.

Would the LFP battery packs be significantly cheaper than the 18650-based ones that Tesla has been using for 10+ years in the S/X?

 

[erik23]

Can you charge to 100% daily on standard range since it’s really not 100%? If so the loss or range is not as significant for daily use.

 

[glide]

Agreed. But here is what DOES have a great value proposition:
A Refresh SR Model X with HW4 sold for $80K ($72,500 or $76,250 after federal tax credit ), with 269 mile range, using CATL M3P LFP battery packs. The Tesla factories are already likely upgrading the Highland Model 3 to this LFP pack, so why not use the same LFP cells and similar pack in the cheaper S and X. Less KWH and less range, but same overall weight as LR/Plaid because LFP cells are less energy dense.

There is no federal tax credit applicable to the MX. Unless you’re saying the LFP packs would change that?

 

[Sunshine Speed]

There is no federal tax credit applicable to the MX. Unless you’re saying the LFP packs would change that?

The federal EV tax credit applies to all SUVs priced under $80K. So if the Model X price is reduced to $80K including all paint/hardware options (so likely $78K base model) then it will qualify. The LFP battery packs do cost much less than nickel-based lithium ion 18650 and 2170 packs.
If the SR pack is LFP, then indeed you can charge it to 100% daily. And the federal EV tax credit could be half ($3750) or full ($7500). For the base Model 3 with LFP pack, Tesla is using a trick where the fleet-wide battery packs are more than 50% made in the US and using battery cell materials from free trade countries, so the Model 3 base LFP gets the full $7500 EV tax credit today, because it is offset by the other Model 3 and Model Y that are using 2170 cells and packs from Nevada. The same thing can be applied to the Model X Standard Range with 269 mile range, if indeed it gets an LFP pack.

 

[Richbot]

Not really. The value proposition was in the range. An MX with a rated range of 269 miles for $90K is not great.

Long Range is 11% more money for 40% more range and 30% better acceleration...costs the same to insure, costs the same to charge, tires cost the same, etc. etc. I don't get it unless there's a price cut coming to snag tax credits

 

[E90alex]

Long Range is 11% more money for 40% more range and 30% better acceleration...costs the same to insure, costs the same to charge, tires cost the same, etc. etc. I don't get it unless there's a price cut coming to snag tax credits

If you don’t get it, then it’s not for you. Buy the long range. It’s still available. I never understand why people get worked up when there are more options available to suit the needs of more customers. It doesn’t remove any options from you.

Some people might value the money more than the range or acceleration. Judging by how slow most other Teslas are on the road they are likely just locked in Chill mode anyways so faster max acceleration is moot. Extra range is meaningless if you don’t need to use it.

It’s like asking why on earth would anyone buy a base iPad instead of the 12.9” iPad Pro that is way more capable.

 

[glide]

The federal EV tax credit applies to all SUVs priced under $80K. So if the Model X price is reduced to $80K including all paint/hardware options (so likely $78K base model) then it will qualify. The LFP battery packs do cost much less than nickel-based lithium ion 18650 and 2170 packs.
If the SR pack is LFP, then indeed you can charge it to 100% daily. And the federal EV tax credit could be half ($3750) or full ($7500). For the base Model 3 with LFP pack, Tesla is using a trick where the fleet-wide battery packs are more than 50% made in the US and using battery cell materials from free trade countries, so the Model 3 base LFP gets the full $7500 EV tax credit today, because it is offset by the other Model 3 and Model Y that are using 2170 cells and packs from Nevada. The same thing can be applied to the Model X Standard Range with 269 mile range, if indeed it gets an LFP pack.

Okay. But it isn’t under $80K. It’s not even close.

And the standard packs would qualify for the credit, so who cares if it’s LFP or not?

 

[brainhouston]

Extra range is meaningless if you don’t need to use it.

It’s like asking why on earth would anyone buy a base iPad instead of the 12.9” iPad Pro that is way more capable.

Extra weight is also meaningless if you don't use it lol

 

[Maaz]

Extra weight is also meaningless if you don't use it lol

Yeah but I’m this case it’s a win since you can daily charge to 100% and keep the dc fast charging curve of a bigger battery.

 

[golferguy]

Yeah but I’m this case it’s a win since you can daily charge to 100% and keep the dc fast charging curve of a bigger battery.

Some things still unknown. Will SuperChargers know the 100% is really 80% of the pack and charge really fast or will it taper way, way down like the LR 90-100%?

And we know that batteries balance when up and around 100%, the real 100%. So if these are only seeing 80% as an bogus 100%, will balancing still work? T

 

[Zuikkis]

Long Range is 11% more money for 40% more range and 30% better acceleration...costs the same to insure, costs the same to charge, tires cost the same, etc. etc. I don't get it unless there's a price cut coming to snag tax credits

How is it 40% more range? Isn't it 21%? 320mi/405mi = 0.79..

Also that is only on the first stint of a long trip. After first charging stop SR and LR will perform identically since you are not going to supercharge your LR over 80%.

 

[henderrj]

Some things still unknown. Will SuperChargers know the 100% is really 80% of the pack and charge really fast or will it taper way, way down like the LR 90-100%?

And we know that batteries balance when up and around 100%, the real 100%. So if these are only seeing 80% as an bogus 100%, will balancing still work? T

Charge rate is determined by the battery management system on the vehicle, not by the charger itself. Thus if the BMS does not sense too much heat in the batteries, or any of the other parameters they watch, it will let the current rate stay high.

A fourth possibility, by the way, is that it's the same battery as is currently used but with a module taken out. Not sure of the structure of the new refresh batteries, so would need some expert to chime in on that.