Would you Buy Model S if it had an ICE instead of Electric?

[andystj]

I would consider an ICE for the same price IF:
it performed and handled as well;
it held my family of 6;
it came with approximately enough gas cards to travel 160,000 miles;
its maintenance and repair bills were pretty much limited to suspension, breaks, bearings and tires for the first 160,000 or so

I have yet to see that vehicle.

Cheers,
Andy

 

[SCW-Greg]

Are you kidding? Seriously, are you kidding? (I'm actually jealous, I love the question)

NO!

Would you have bought your Australian Cattle Dog if it was a Pekingese?
Would you have bought your LED TV if it was a tube TV?
Would you have bought your iPhone if it was a rotary dial?
Would you have bought your tablet if it was a desktop?
Would you have bought your wine if it was beer?
Would you have bought your first class ticket if it were economy?

The 'E' of EV is the essence of the car. It can't be removed.

This is so spot on!!!

 

[AnOutsider]

If you could afford an R8, buy it. It kills the Tesla S in its EV form. You're talking apples and oranges here.

I'd have to disagree. I have a 4.2 R8 and the performance numbers (if not top speed) are similar, yet favorable to Model S Performance. Same 0-60, about the same quarter mile -- yet with the MSP you gain:

• No shifting. Manual is good, R-Tronic is alright -- 1 speed beats both
• Quiet
• Way more storage space
• Don't need to do yoga to get in and out
• You actually have a back seat, frunk (R8 has a frunk tinier than the MS), and if you want, rear-facing seats.
• Way better technology
• Pricing.. when I got mine back in 2008 it was 114 base and considerably more once configured to my liking. I'm pretty much loading the MSP and I'm still only 2k above the BASE r8 (of 4 years ago -- prices have increased)

In my opinion, the only area the R8 wins is on style (which is subjective).

As for the eTron version... laughable. Minimum of 50k above the base R8, yet slower than it (and in turn the Model S P). Also slower than a Roadster and has less range and about the same amount of storage. Again, the only win I'd see for Audi there is styling.

 

[aviators99]

I guess I'll be the first one to say YES, I would. The car it is replacing is a Lexus LS 430 UL, which is around the same price as I'm paying for my S85. It is also high performance and pretty quiet. It has a few more high tech features than the Model S, but many of them have been promised in firmware updates. The lack of an ICE has always been a bonus for me. I reserved the car 3 years ago because of its looks and performance (and the infotainment screen). If not for the Model S, I would have bought a new LS (as I stated in the thread that asks *that* question).

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

One of the most overlooked inherit costs with a battery EV, such as the Model S, is the cost of replacing the battery itself! If it degrades considerably after 7 to 10 years, you may be looking at a $20k cost just to replace it if you wish to continue driving the Model S. This largely offsets the savings in fuel costs. And even if you no longer wish to drive the Model S after just 7 to 10 years, it's resale value will be largely hit when trying to dump it with an aged battery, since the new owner will likely have to take on the cost of replacement if he wishes it to operate it with a range similar to what it got new. But at any rate, I'm not buying the Model S under some guise that it's going to save me money. To answer the OP's question, I would not buy the Model S if it were an ICE, though I would buy if it were a hybrid or plug-in hybrid and got gas mileage on par with the Toyota Prius.

I'm not terribly convinced that the battery will fail after 10 years let alone 7. The readers who have discussed the published performance and degradation characteristics of the Panasonic cells used in the Model S seem to correlate well with comments from Musk and others at Tesla that these batteries should have 15+ years of useable life. I've known people who have had an engine or transmission fail completely early in the life in the car, but those are outliers, and a battery failure in the first 10 years should be an outlier as well.

Degradation down to 70% over that time just doesn't concern me, and I plan to buy the 85kWh battery to mitigate that effect. If not for that, the 60kWh battery would be completely sufficient, and likely would be even under my assumptions. But the fact that it takes fewer charge cycles with the 85kWh battery sold me.

With an equivalent ICE you can expect to pay ~$40-$45k in gas costs over the 15 year life of the car, and if the Model S is worth only $6-$10k by then you can just junk it and still be ahead, or you can buy a new battery if they have gotten cheap enough. I don't feel a particular need to factor in a giant battery replacement cost when the residual value of the car is going to be so much less than my gas savings, even if it fails after 10 years.

And if the batteries prove to be durable, it solves that problem and reduces the depreciation on the car, so unless batteries fail en-masse immediately after the 8 year warranty expires, I expect to book huge savings compared to an ICE vehicle.

 

[Jaff]

Nope...electric only from here on in...

 

[KBF]

Let's not take the "best car" thing literally. The takeaway from that slogan is that Elon wants the Model S to be good enough that people will buy it because it's a really good car that's electric. Not because it's an electric car that you can make yourself put up with because it's electric.

I think the Model S passes that test.

This. The Model S simply isn't the S if it had an ICE. Would anyone buy an Audi if it was horse-powered? The interior could still be nice, with lots of cupholders, and it would stink just like a real one (well, the smell would be a bit different, one smells worse when it's filling up).

 

[contaygious]

I'd have to disagree. I have a 4.2 R8 and the performance numbers (if not top speed) are similar, yet favorable to Model S Performance. Same 0-60, about the same quarter mile -- yet with the MSP you gain:

• No shifting. Manual is good, R-Tronic is alright -- 1 speed beats both
• Quiet
• Way more storage space
• Don't need to do yoga to get in and out
• You actually have a back seat, frunk (R8 has a frunk tinier than the MS), and if you want, rear-facing seats.
• Way better technology
• Pricing.. when I got mine back in 2008 it was 114 base and considerably more once configured to my liking. I'm pretty much loading the MSP and I'm still only 2k above the BASE r8 (of 4 years ago -- prices have increased)

In my opinion, the only area the R8 wins is on style (which is subjective).

As for the eTron version... laughable. Minimum of 50k above the base R8, yet slower than it (and in turn the Model S P). Also slower than a Roadster and has less range and about the same amount of storage. Again, the only win I'd see for Audi there is styling.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I passed on my dream car: New 4.2 white r8 with cf mirrors and dark rims. I want to drive the futures and the performance is close. I'm also super tall and live in sf so a tesla is perfect for me. I do think the R8 is the best looking car on the planet though. instead, I'm getting the same trim in the S which looks 90% as cool.

You guys would gasp at the options on it judging by the threads here. Leather is like 7,500 by itself and it's 5k for the cf side blades and mirrors haha.

 

[ChrisgG]

So practically noone here in the forum would buy the Model S if it was ICE... That is also true for myself. I never ever considered buying a car in this price range. But I'm hyped about tesla for a long time and the Model es is in financial reach. The basic features all also look fantastic. Accelleration looks and so on. But it disappoints a bit in all the Technical gadgets.

Sure the Touch screen looks nice, but what to do with it? The standard navigation shows a map and not your current position. So actually it's worse than every phone app. the tech package navigations needs internet for pois (bad in europe).No real standard Keyless entry and driving. No park assistant. No safte features that stop automatically. No Hud. No LED lights. Do we need all those things? No, but also the S stands for the future. In some way it's kinda like owning a SciFi car, no sound and so on. But that feeling of owning that 'spaceship' gets a bit dented with that 'old' features.

So in the end we are fanboys and EV enthusiasts, and as we wouldn't buy it as an ICE. So did Elon fail or are all of us like me who wouldn't have considered a car in that range if it wasn't for it being that EV-Future-Cool-Car-to-kick-some-ICE-asses?

 

[GSP]

No more ICEs or conventional hybrids for me, just EREVs and EVs.

I would not buy an ICE powered Model S. That would be like buying a New Mercedes S-class with a 4-cyl, 60 hp, low compression engine, with hand crank for starting, manual choke, and manual spark advance! Throw in a non-synchronized 3-spd manual trans to complete the picture.

I would get an EREV version at this time. A big, comfy, EREV for long trips, and a small, maneuverable, east to park, 200-mile EV for everything else would be perfect for me.

HOWEVER....., once 90 kW fast chargers are widely available I will no longer consider an EREV, since there will be no need to carry around an ICE generator and it's claptrap.

GSP

 

[Zythryn]

After driving electric I am as likely to get another ICE as I would a horse and buggy

 

[mnx]

I think this is analogous to asking, would you buy a fisker karma? The answer is hell no!

all kidding aside, I wouldn't buy a car from a startup company unless is was groundbreaking (ie. electric)

 

[SCW-Greg]

Sure the Touch screen looks nice, but what to do with it? The standard navigation shows a map and not your current position. So actually it's worse than every phone app. the tech package navigations needs internet for pois (bad in europe).No real standard Keyless entry and driving. No park assistant. No safte features that stop automatically. No Hud. No LED lights. Do we need all those things? No, but also the S stands for the future. In some way it's kinda like owning a SciFi car, no sound and so on. But that feeling of owning that 'spaceship' gets a bit dented with that 'old' features.

So in the end we are fanboys and EV enthusiasts, and as we wouldn't buy it as an ICE. So did Elon fail or are all of us like me who wouldn't have considered a car in that range if it wasn't for it being that EV-Future-Cool-Car-to-kick-some-ICE-asses?

Just like when the iPhone came out. It only did a few things, but how it operated was ground breaking. Then with each iteration of OS, it added functionality and features that truly transformed it from a fancy phone to a full fledged computer.

We'll see all kinds of new features added to the computing horsepower of the Model S. Functionality, AI, etc that was never even considered before this car. The platform is so flexible, so scalable. In two years time, it will get really interesting.

 

[ChrisgG]

We'll see all kinds of new features added to the computing horsepower of the Model S. Functionality, AI, etc that was never even considered before this car. The platform is so flexible, so scalable. In two years time, it will get really interesting.

The Problem with the Model S is that it lacks the sensors needed. Also did Apple live from 3rd party programmers to add the funktionality, a thing Tesla is probably not doing. I do think that the Model S V1.5-V3 will have much more of those stuff. I'm not so sure for upgrades for your model s V1.

Still if you listen to Elon he wanted to be compared to the competition and that regardless of the Engine and Fuel used, it will be the future car. But then almost a 100% seem to hate ICEs so much that they wouldn't drive on if they won one in the lottery, so for me it's pretty hard to tell if he succeded in his very very high goal.

the Pros
+ He generated a wish in many of us to buy this car. Even thou it costs much more than we would be confortable with in any other car. (like me)
+ The Model S is and will be a Prestige Object so I guess it will be very popular with the rich and famous even thou they could buy a car 10 times the price
+ He made it... so many people said he wouldn't and he did. And it is a car you want! Damn I want it ^^
Cons
- If you really compare what the car does without the Engine and all its positive possibilities and so on. you just don't get as much for your bucks as in other cars I think.

So guess it's a miss, but close one. But with the EV factor I am sure it will be a success none the less and like Greg said. In a few years they'll have catched up with all those gimmiks too.

 

[Larry Chanin]

So my question for those who have bought or reserved is, would you still be shelling out the same bucks for Model S if it was just a plain ICE-powered car, given that it still might be "best in the world"?

Hi Mike,

Sure, if you could squeeze the engine, fuel tank exhaust system, etc. into a 4"-5" floorboard and get the engine to produce zero emissions with the efficiency and performance equal to or greater than a well-designed electric powertrain, using a fuel costing about one fourth that of gasoline. :wink:

Larry

 

[Arnold Panz]

There is no way I would spend this much on an ICE car.

+1 (thousand). I'd be looking at a car for less than $50k at this point if it's an ICE. Not that I'm going to make up the difference, but part of the appeal of an all-electric car is the lack of costs (gas + maintenance) required after purchase. Eliminate that and you eliminate a lot of the rationale for blowing my car budget to smithereens.

 

[Vger]

I'm not so sure for upgrades for your model s V1.

Tesla has shown and continues to show a desire to develop huge brand loyalty and customer satisfaction by providing as many upgrade paths as possible for its "installed base." Us Roadster owners have enjoyed significant enhancements in functionality through both software and hardware upgrades, with many new upgrades coming. I think that they will likely continue this tradition as much as possible. It is one of the reasons why I am OK with paying a premium price. Tesla does not rely on the aftermarket, or creating silly forced obsolescence in their products, they find ways to keep the customer coming back for more, even with the existing platform.

It is hard for non-customers to get their mind around this, since is is SO different from what ALL other car companies do, even the premium brands.

 

[hvb]

The spartan interior doesn't bother me because I'm used to driving a BMW. Which is an Ultimate Driving Machine, not an Ultimate Cushy Interior Machine or an Ultimate Passenger Convenience Machine. BMW interiors have always been spartan. The Model S interior is right in line.

Love that. I too appreciate the minimalist interior of the Model S. And no, there's no way I'd spend this kind of money on an ICE. It's sun-powered cars for me from here on out.

 

[onlinespending]

It is hard for non-customers to get their mind around this, since is is SO different from what ALL other car companies do, even the premium brands.

Well, they can't afford to have the same mindset as ALL other car companies, since ALL other car companies have huge, well established brands. Tesla is doing what most startups do, really go out of their way to please their initial customers, recognizing that its your impression of the company that largely determines the fate of it. Word of mouth plays a big role, and better to have a couple thousand Tesla evangelists running around, rather than 2000 dissatisfied people.

 

[Johan]

To answer the OP - No, I wouldn't buy a model S as ICE or Hybrid for that matter. It's the 100% electric and all that comes with it that attracts. But it is a beautiful car none the less.