SAE to standardize NACS

[RTPEV]

Based on your knowledge, what do you expect this standardization will mean for us Tesla owners? Will there be any changes for our day-to-day operations?

Always hard to predict the future, but with a huge installed base, and also assuming that Tesla will retain an influential (but not sole) membership on the committee, I would say the day-to-day operations, even in the long term, will not be affected. They would go to great lengths to maintain backwards compatibility.

I did see an article that mentioned 1000 kW charging as part of the effort which would be great! But I assume that would be an optional implementation like USB-3 vs 4 speeds.

Yes, but that is a different connector altogether.

 

[unk45]

I read the SAE Press Release, and since I'm not a Standards guy, I am confused as to what they're saying they're going to do when going through the process to "standardize" the NACS connector...I noticed they used the phrase "the new SAE NACS connector", which is very interesting...What does this mean for the J1772 standard?

Nothing at all. Once made, an SAE standard lives on. A quick glance at SAE standards ;its shows that:

SAE Standards for Mobility Knowledge and Solutions

SAE standards promote and facilitate safety, productivity, reliability, efficiency, and certification in mobility industries.

www.sae.org

The most active ones do have updates but many are not even in active use.
My guess is that SAE will include in the six month version some things beyond the bare bones.
Nobody seems to have commented on this:
"This includes SAE-ITC’s Public Key Infrastructure (PKI) for cyber-secure charging. In close cooperation with National Labs, SAE also is contributing to reliability design for the national ChargeX consortium."
That is one reason for six months, and has been a major impediment to successful fast charger reliability in non-Tesla sites in the US.
There will be related issues regarding the V4 Superchargers (615A/1000V max) that will certainly involved SAE mavens testing the existing NACS connector at those levels or even more. That is not in the press release, but SAE always examines any device in the operating context, that is one function of standards.

With the NACS established as at least 615A/1000V capable without issue there will be a very easy path for Hyundai/Kia and the coming plethora of larger commercial vehicles to use NACS.

Next: 48V everywhere, suddenly. This has been pending for years but apart from some Hybrid and suspension applications it has remained because no large OEM's would push the issue with suppliers. That topic has needed some OEM to force the braider issue. Tesla has now done that. Every OEM wants to do it.
Now that NACS has eradicated the 'Not Invented Here' problem, 48V finally is coming. Here is a Consumers report article from 2015:

Why Your Next Car Might Use 48-Volt Technology

Cars with 48-volt technology promise better fuel economy, more power, and improved reliability. Here's what you need to know.

www.consumerreports.org

It will have taken a decade to finally fix the ancient problem. FWIW, it was only after GM adopted 12V systems in 1953 that the US adopted 12V, The UK, for eagle used 12V from the begginning but switched to 6V to be 'standardized'. Now the move to 48V will be very paid because suppliers will help push. Repeating, one again Tesla is forcing the creaky old industry to move forward to the obvious cheaper, more durable, more reliable, lighter, more efficient 48V.

It is fitting that the NACS will have been the impetus for widespread 48V also, benefitting ICE, Hybrid and BEV.

 

[dhrivnak]

Was that on a road trip, or driving 650 miles going from one site to another for work? They're two very different things. In the road-trip scenario, you can plan your stops appropriately so that you can rest, go to the bathroom, and eat while the car does a DC fast charge. I've done this myself, many times, and I agree that EV skeptics really over-state the problems of an EV road trip. In the work scenario I'm describing, the stops will be mostly at customer sites, where charging cannot be assumed. That means that charging will add wasted time to the day, which is likely to be quite unwelcome. I know that I wouldn't want to add an hour to even just some work days because of some new piece of equipment I'd have to use.

It was NUMEROUS trips to the in-laws during 6 months of Hospice care. Same amount of time to drive a gasser.

 

[jboy210]

Yes, but that is a different connector altogether.

Thanks. I did not realize the connector would have to change.

 

[MP3Mike]

The main criticism I've seen of NACS is that people are afraid that Tesla (and specifically Elon) will be in control of it. They don't necessarily care about the workings of it or even that it came from Tesla originally, but rather that fear that Tesla will retain exclusive control over the standard. This effectively puts an end to that fear.

Yeah, that is what they say now. Likely because they thought that it would never become an actual standard. Just wait until SAE ratifies the standard and they will come up with some other reason to not embrace NACS.

 

[jboy210]

Yeah, that is what they say now. Likely because they thought that it would never become an actual standard. Just wait until SAE ratifies the standard and they will come up with some other reason to not embrace NACS.

Just like USB company's always want their special thing. Apple Lightning ...

 

[unk45]

Car manufacturers and charging companies will use NACS with or without SAE.
NACS already has letter S in it.

Probably not. Large scale adoption by suppliers tends to demand standards compliance. SAE makes life easier for suppliers and users. As has been noted just above by

Always hard to predict the future, but with a huge installed base, and also assuming that Tesla will retain an influential (but not sole) membership on the committee, I would say the day-to-day operations, even in the long term, will not be affected. They would go to great lengths to maintain backwards compatibility.


Yes, but that is a different connector altogether.

Actually it is NOT different:
"The North American Charging Standard exists in both a 500V rated configuration and a 1,000V rated configuration. The 1,000V version is mechanically backwards compatible (i.e. 500V inlets can mate with 1,000V connectors and 500V connectors can mate with 1,000V inlets)."
The North American Charging Standard shall specify no maximum current rating. The maximum current rating of the inlet or connector shall be determined by the manufacturer, provided that the temperature limits defined in section 8 are maintained.
Tesla has successfully operated the North American Charging Standard above 900A continuously with a non-liquid cooled vehicle inlet."

https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Charging_Standard_Technical_Specification_TS-0023666_HFTPKZ.pdf?xseo=&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22North-American-Charging-Standard-Technical-Specification-TS-0023666.pdf%22

 

[RTPEV]

Thanks. I did not realize the connector would have to change.

For 1000 kW? Definitely. That is the so called MCS (megawatt charging system). Perhaps you really meant to say 1000V?

 

[jboy210]

For 1000 kW? Definitely. That is the so called MCS (megawatt charging system). Perhaps you really meant to say 1000V?

You are correct. Sorry for my error.

 

[DP26]

Change is hard for most. Our society has been through it before. All one used to need was a good horse and an occasional train. Steamers, electric, diesel, and gas came along. One became the defacing standard. The standard may be infancy of change. Some politicians, business people, and consumers think so. Many hurdles (all day long distance travel is one) remain, but it seems the wind is solid and sailed trimmed.

 

[Rocky_H]

Despite the fact that NACS is an acronym for "North American Charging Standard," NACS is not a true standard by most definitions. Most standards are released by industry standards organizations, like SAE, IEEE, ISO, etc. They're created by multiple companies, universities, governments, and other interested bodies who come together to decide how things should be done. NACS, by contrast, was created by Tesla and for Tesla, with (AFAIK) no input from anybody else. It was, at best, a de facto standard, which is something that one company invents and others copy. SAE is simply saying that they'll adopt the NACS specification and release their own version, to be controlled by them. They'll probably start with Tesla's current specification and tweak a few things. They might expand the section on V2X charging, for instance, or add limitations or verbiage on acceptable voltages and amperages.

Granted, I'm not in the automotive industry, rather the electronics industry, but in my experience a large number of standards did originally develop out of a one-time proprietary format that became a de facto standard, and then was adopted by a recognized industry standards body (with industry participation--mostly interested companies, not so much academia and government). I think it's actually the exception that a standards committee is formed to set a standard from an entirely clean slate.

Yes, thank you. When I was reading that section from @srs5694 I was already thinking in my mind, "That's not how the standards body in MY industry works." and then @RTPEV covered it. I'm in the semiconductor industry, where JEDEC is the standards body, and while there probably are some committee-developed things, many are a technology developed by one company and submitted to be considered for use by the rest of the industry. This is why they have the term RAND in this activity. It's a thing that was developed and originally owned and patented by one company, so for it to be possible for consideration, they have to offer it with "Reasonable and Non Discriminatory" licensing terms to all the competitors.

 

[dafuzztsu]

really the only reason i can see for having an ICE car at this point is for towing or heavy loads which 98% of all american's don't do.

Through pure coincidence I live in a somewhat rural area, and all the friends/family we visit live in charging deserts. In most cases we would need to drive 30-60 minutes out of our way to catch even a level 2 charger near them. It's bad enough that I've considered paying to have charging circuits installed at their homes but that's an awkward proposal to make. We love our Tesla for regional use with our home charger but it's a tough sell for traveling further afield. Thankfully, we found my wife a PHEV that runs pure electric on her commute and errands but gives us the ICE option when we travel. Between the two we're covered whatever the trip may bring.

I think the majority of urban or suburban people would be suited just fine with fully electric. And, in a few years hopefully some of these gaps in the charging network will narrow down enough to make it a non-issue. But for now, especially for more rural folks a full EV can be a tough sell.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Probably not. Large scale adoption by suppliers tends to demand standards compliance. SAE makes life easier for suppliers and users. As has been noted just above by

Actually it is NOT different:
"The North American Charging Standard exists in both a 500V rated configuration and a 1,000V rated configuration. The 1,000V version is mechanically backwards compatible (i.e. 500V inlets can mate with 1,000V connectors and 500V connectors can mate with 1,000V inlets)."
The North American Charging Standard shall specify no maximum current rating. The maximum current rating of the inlet or connector shall be determined by the manufacturer, provided that the temperature limits defined in section 8 are maintained.
Tesla has successfully operated the North American Charging Standard above 900A continuously with a non-liquid cooled vehicle inlet."

https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Charging_Standard_Technical_Specification_TS-0023666_HFTPKZ.pdf?xseo=&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22North-American-Charging-Standard-Technical-Specification-TS-0023666.pdf%22

In a brief look at it, it seemed to me that there were two noted differences from 500V to 1000V:
- slightly longer pins
- pin separation is different, presumably better to isolate them

 

[sleepydoc]

I have done multiple 650 mile days, in winter, with my Model 3. It has not been an issue in the least.

Where do you live? I’ve found as much as a 50% decrease in range during the winter in my MY.

Does it work? Yes. Is charging more of an issue than it is in the summer? Absolutely.

 

[sleepydoc]

Just like USB company's always want their special thing. Apple Lightning ...

Apple Lightning isn’t an apt comparison - when it came out it had significant advantages over the other available standards. The fact that it has aged as well as it has demonstrates that it was a solid design.

 

[philly4]

Where do you live? I’ve found as much as a 50% decrease in range during the winter in my MY.

Does it work? Yes. Is charging more of an issue than it is in the summer? Absolutely.

50% seems a bit hyperbole for most winter driving. My experience is 15-20% in additional energy is conservative for planning for the majority of conditions. If you don't precondition and do short trips sure...but then range/charging isn't really a factor.

 

[RTPEV]

50% seems a bit hyperbole for most winter driving. My experience is 15-20% in additional energy is conservative for planning. If you don't precondition and do short trips sure...but then range/charging isn't really a factor.

And for long trips, by the time you reach your first charge stop, the battery is no longer cold soaked, so the loss is not nearly as severe in subsequent legs.

 

[sleepydoc]

50% seems a bit hyperbole for most winter driving. My experience is 15-20% in additional energy is conservative for planning for the majority of conditions. If you don't precondition and do short trips sure...but then range/charging isn't really a factor.

Drive in subzero weather in Minnesota (or the Dakotas.) It’s not hyperbole.

Example - I can drive to our cabin using almost exactly 50% charge during the summer. Last winter we left with 95% and had to turn around and double back to a charger because we wouldn’t have made it. (It was -5º F/-20º C out at the time)

 

[jboy210]

Apple Lightning isn’t an apt comparison - when it came out it had significant advantages over the other available standards. The fact that it has aged as well as it has demonstrates that it was a solid design.

It may have been good back in the day, but it is good to see that that Apple is finally phasing it out. I hate that I need a unique cable for my iPhone 14, but can use the same USB C cables and chargers for my iPad Pros, MacBook Pros, Android phones, Windows laptops, earbuds, headphones, etc.

 

[dhrivnak]

Where do you live? I’ve found as much as a 50% decrease in range during the winter in my MY.

Does it work? Yes. Is charging more of an issue than it is in the summer? Absolutely.

NE TN. Yes I see a drop but more in the 10-20% range. Not much different than the range decrease I saw on my ICE cars.