SAE to standardize NACS

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

A couple things I'm wondering:

1.) How many non-Tesla manufacturers support 277V? (I know Tesla has supported it since the Model S first came out.)

2.) Although the article doesn't mention it, did they extended 120V charging to 24 amps? This would help folks that camp at RV parks fully utilize TT-30 receptacles. Again, Tesla has supported it all along. (Though the first couple years of Model S were limited to 20 amps.) Some manufacturers cap 120V at 12 amps no matter what the EVSE says is safe. Others allow more.

Well, it appears that as part of the new NACS/J3400 they're supporting higher power 3-phase AC charging. Level 3 was proposed but not included in J1772. There has been some 120V support for higher currents, although officially J1772 only said 16A. Let's hope they incorporated higher-amperage 120V charging as well.

It doesn't include plug-and-charge, but I know that's in the works for at the SAE for AC as well as that's an important piece of the puzzle.

 

[Rocky_H]

There's part of that that doesn't make any sense at all:
"The new NACS standard instead uses a standardized receptacle – which is in fact the same one used in the EU and China"

It is not. EU frequently uses 3 phase, and since the NACS plug only has two pins used for the voltage connection it simply can't be used for 3 phase. That's why they still use the Mennekes plug and therefore the CCS2 extension of it. So these further statements about using 3 phase through it don't make any sense at all either.

"Another potential upside here involves medium and heavy duty vehicles, which could charge at up to 52kW AC from the same receptacle as a light duty vehicle can charge at 20kW, by using 3 phases or 1 phase respectively."

I can't believe that SAE could be this clueless about the plug specifications, so what are we missing, where they think you can run 3 phase through NACS?

 

[mspohr]

There's part of that that doesn't make any sense at all:
"The new NACS standard instead uses a standardized receptacle – which is in fact the same one used in the EU and China"

It is not. EU frequently uses 3 phase, and since the NACS plug only has two pins used for the voltage connection it simply can't be used for 3 phase. That's why they still use the Mennekes plug and therefore the CCS2 extension of it. So these further statements about using 3 phase through it don't make any sense at all either.

"Another potential upside here involves medium and heavy duty vehicles, which could charge at up to 52kW AC from the same receptacle as a light duty vehicle can charge at 20kW, by using 3 phases or 1 phase respectively."

I can't believe that SAE could be this clueless about the plug specifications, so what are we missing, where they think you can run 3 phase through NACS?

I believe this is referring to the receptacle on the charging equipment, not the plug on the car end of the cable.
This is for "bring your own cable" applications.
The SAE standard is a more capable superset of the Tesla standard.

 

[mspohr]

 

[Rocky_H]

Those are not NACS. I see the diagram being shown there, and that is the Type2 plug. The one that shows being able to do 52 kW 3 phase or 20 kW 1 phase is clearly a Type 2 plug on both ends, which is not NACS.

And I love how they say "eliminates adapters for AC", while showing the adapter cables.

 

[mspohr]

Those are not NACS. I see the diagram being shown there, and that is the Type2 plug. The one that shows being able to do 52 kW 3 phase or 20 kW 1 phase is clearly a Type 2 plug on both ends, which is not NACS.

And I love how they say "eliminates adapters for AC", while showing the adapter cables.

Again, this is enhanced functionality of the SAE standard using a charger side receptacle and BYO cables.

Don't worry you'll still be able to us the Tesla plug and fixed cables.

 

[GSP]

@Rocky_H - Based on the slide from the article, which @mspohr posted above, it looks like SAE is proposing a "bring your own cable" standard like is used in Europe. The standard will use Type 2 style outlets for public charging, without a cable. EV drivers can bring a cable that matches their car's inlet on the other side. While NACS drivers cannot use 3-phase, of course, commercial vehicles that use J3068 (Type 2) inlets with 3-phase on-vehicle chargers could. However, AFAIK, there have been few to none of such commercial vehicles sold.

I think this is a great idea for public charging, since it reduces the cost of EVSE, eliminates cable theft and vandalism, and increases reliability of charge points. Like in Europe, "tethered" EVSE with built in cables should also be available. I hope the "bring your own cable" provides for "lamp post EVSE" type solutions for EV drivers that rely on street parking.

GSP

 

[GSP]

Those are not NACS. I see the diagram being shown there, and that is the Type2 plug. The one that shows being able to do 52 kW 3 phase or 20 kW 1 phase is clearly a Type 2 plug on both ends, which is not NACS.

And I love how they say "eliminates adapters for AC", while showing the adapter cables.

It does eliminate the adapter, and also eliminates the cable. The best part is no part! Seriously, the cable is replaced by the EV driver's own cable, with will have the correct plug for his/her car, without using an adapter.

GSP

 

[Rocky_H]

Based on the slide from the article, which @mspohr posted above, it looks like SAE is proposing a "bring your own cable" standard like is used in Europe.

That's the point I'm making. Saying it's something they are "proposing" doesn't make much sense. That's already what most public charging stations in Europe have been for many years now. The part that was confusing me was SAE talking about this as if it's part of their new ratified NACS standard, and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with that at all.

 

[terranx]

That's the point I'm making. Saying it's something they are "proposing" doesn't make much sense. That's already what most public charging stations in Europe have been for many years now. The part that was confusing me was SAE talking about this as if it's part of their new ratified NACS standard, and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with that at all.

I think it’s part of the sae j3400 standard, which includes NACS

 

[GSP]

I just checked SAE's website, and it appears that J3400 has just been published today. I would love to read it, but not willing to pay $195 to get a copy.

J3400_202312: NACS Electric Vehicle Coupler - SAE International

This document covers the general physical, electrical, functional, safety, and performance requirements for conductive power transfer to an electric vehicle using a coupler, which can be hand-mated and is capable of transferring either DC or AC single-phase power using two current-carrying contacts.

www.sae.org

GSP

 

[mspohr]

@Rocky_H - Based on the slide from the article, which @mspohr posted above, it looks like SAE is proposing a "bring your own cable" standard like is used in Europe. The standard will use Type 2 style outlets for public charging, without a cable. EV drivers can bring a cable that matches their car's inlet on the other side. While NACS drivers cannot use 3-phase, of course, commercial vehicles that use J3068 (Type 2) inlets with 3-phase on-vehicle chargers could. However, AFAIK, there have been few to none of such commercial vehicles sold.

I think this is a great idea for public charging, since it reduces the cost of EVSE, eliminates cable theft and vandalism, and increases reliability of charge points. Like in Europe, "tethered" EVSE with built in cables should also be available. I hope the "bring your own cable" provides for "lamp post EVSE" type solutions for EV drivers that rely on street parking.

GSP

I think the ability to have transformerless charging stations at high power is significant. Will lead to much cheaper stations.

 

[sleepydoc]

I think the ability to have transformerless charging stations at high power is significant. Will lead to much cheaper stations.

And potentially reliability, too. Maybe Electrify America could have more than 30% of their chargers online at once!

 

[terranx]

And potentially reliability, too. Maybe Electrify America could have more than 30% of their chargers online at once!

Won't make a difference for DC charging.

 

[Supcom]

Won't make a difference for DC charging.

Correct. DC fast charging usually (always?) requires cables with liquid cooling.

 

[sleepydoc]

Won't make a difference for DC charging.

uh...that was the entire point.