One Man's P85+ versus P85 experience... am I being unfair to the P85?

[brianman]

What does partial consist of?

Only 1 of the two rear wheels.

Kidding! Let me go find a hopefully relevant post on the subject.

Update:
Signature P85+ Retrofit - Page 2

 

[epley]

Some of that difference may be the wheels. I recently got winter tires on my P85 after driving the 21's for a year. It feels like a different car. Smoother ride, a bit quieter. But the cornering and thrust off the line are not the same...at all. I am sorely missing my 21's. Maybe I'll get used to it. Maybe not. But those winter tires were damned expensive, so I'll give them a try. I took the 21s skiing last winter without a single problem, so it will be interesting to compare with the "real" winter tires.

 

[brianman]

Also keep in mind that new (not even different flavor) wheels will have a different feel as well.

For example, my 19s currently feel like they have better traction on my P85 because the 21s are about due for replacement.

 

[gimp_dad]

Pretty certain its not quite that simple...and I had the s85 with the 21's...its no +

Fair enough but the handling of the S85 without air is a lot closer to the handling of P85+ than the handling of the P85 with air. (IMHO)

Do you have the non-air suspension? Clearly, none of what I am suggesting is going to help your straight line acceleration. My point was that the non-air goes a long way toward delivering on handling and is significantly superior to the air suspension on the P85. Of course, you aren't going to get the compliance of the air suspension or the flexibility that comes with being able to raise or lower the ride height, but within the constraints of getting the best bang for the buck that is a pretty good combo. Enough so, that I wish I had the option of getting non-air when I bought my P85 (I live in CA where there are not a lot of rough roads near me). If I had the non-air I would be a lot less envious of the +.

 

[wormhole]

I have air and actually regret it. Had to get it to get my MS in a reasonable time since I ordered in February 2012. Adjusting ride height really doesn't do squat and I've ridden in an s85 without air. Definitely less body roll but not a true "+". I really see no benefit to air suspension. That's just me.

 

[Pollux]

Thanks!

Only 1 of the two rear wheels.

Kidding! Let me go find a hopefully relevant post on the subject.

Update:
Signature P85+ Retrofit - Page 2

 

[jcaspar]

Cheaper alternative would be buying any Model S with the coil suspension. It is 80-90% as good as the plus. After putting even wider and grippier tires on my car it feels like like a P85++

This is my plan too. I have a P85 with coils and 19" wheels. It seems to handle very well, hold the road tightly. I am anxious to try some wider, stickier tires and am hoping for an aftermarket adjustable shock setup. This might really make it handle well. I was worried about ground clearance but I easily clear my driveway that is nearly impossible for my Viper to clear.

 

[bosgig]

Funny. . .I had the opposite experience. Got a P85+ as a loaner and thought it was too tight and too rigid. I'm sure I'll get overwhelmingly shot down on this one but for driving around town on freeways and surface streets that was my experience. I think you really really have to caveat your original comments when comparing driving with 21's against 19" winters, to the point of discounting it as not really a fair comparison.

 

[Pollux]

I'm swapping my 21s for winter 19s in about two weeks. I'll say more after I've experienced the 19s.

Funny. . .I had the opposite experience. Got a P85+ as a loaner and thought it was too tight and too rigid. I'm sure I'll get overwhelmingly shot down on this one but for driving around town on freeways and surface streets that was my experience. I think you really really have to caveat your original comments when comparing driving with 21's against 19" winters, to the point of discounting it as not really a fair comparison.

 

[RoverS]

$15K partial, $25K full

insane. for the cost of a brand new VW GTI, you get sliiiightly better handling. wow.

- - - Updated - - -

Had my P85+ in for some punch list items on Nov 5. Watertown, MA SC loaned me a P85. A nice, sweet, seemingly well-maintained P85.

I really can't remember my original test drive back in July -- was it in a P85 or a P85+? It was just so awesome, details are drowned out. Well... when I purchased the +, it was all about the midlife crisis. I'm an ordinary driver. I've had and enjoyed an Audi A4 Quattro 3.2. Great car, lotta fun. But an @lolachampcar, I'm not. I just figured that I was just gonna go for max fun, no limits on the purchase options, just get everything. I figured I'd get a friend to take me out onto a track at some point and show me the car's true abilities. My + was delivered on August 7, and I have loved this car to death ever since. Wow, wow, wow!

So Tuesday was my first opportunity for an extended drive in the P85. Based on everything I've read, I thought the P85 should be just as much fun as the P85+. Maybe a little slower off the mark, what with the winter tires installed on this one instead of the fancy 21s. Maybe a little software-limited loaner velocity (ick). What could *I* possibly do that would ever show off the handling differences between a P85 and a P85+? Me, a little non-professional, ordinary driver?

Oh.

My.

GAWD!!!!!!!!

The P85 is no shabby beast, and I'd happily have that car in my garage compared to anything else I'd been looking at in the last year. Especially with the electric motor, the instant torque, the zero emissions, all the other many wonderful things about the Model S.

But HOLY JEEPERS CREEPERS do I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE the handling of the +!!! (Those are NOT cut-n-paste LOVEs. Those are honest-to-gosh hand-typed each-and-every-one LOVEs.)

Now I understand what people are talking about when they say that the + goes where you point it. Or that the + holds corners so nicely. Or accelerates without any fuss.

The P85 is a great car, but you're gonna hafta take more care with it when you motor through the curves. The first thing I noticed was that even in straight-line acceleration, with traction control, the P85's rear end is loose. I managed to create a nice shimmy without even flooring it. I came back and asked the Service Manager about all this, and asked him whether I was really seeing what I thought I was seeing, and he just smiled and said, "yup".

I am still fantasizing about giving this car to the wife and getting another Model S -- just on safety grounds alone, I'd rather she be in a Model S. I was thinking that I could get myself a P85 and be happy. (I haven't figured out exactly how I'm paying for the next one, so this may just bubble along as a fantasy for another year.) But now there is NO WAY IN HECK I am going to be happy getting a P85 instead of a P85+.

So... was my experience in the P85 versus P85+ representative? Or am I being unfair to the P85?

Thanks,
Alan

P.S. I can only imagine how speeds above 80 (for the sake of argument, not saying that I ever got the loaner anywhere near that software limit) and/or pushing the car on a test track would magnify the apparent handling differences between the two models.

P.P.S. Forgive me, I created this text in another thread and copied and modified it a bit and posted it here to get some feedback. I don't mean to annoy anyone with double-posting / cross-posting.

your post is exceedingly annoying, but it has nothing to do with the double-posting and everything to do with the words you chose to use.

 

[gimp_dad]

Funny. . .I had the opposite experience. Got a P85+ as a loaner and thought it was too tight and too rigid. I'm sure I'll get overwhelmingly shot down on this one but for driving around town on freeways and surface streets that was my experience. I think you really really have to caveat your original comments when comparing driving with 21's against 19" winters, to the point of discounting it as not really a fair comparison.

bosgig, I couldn't agree more with your point. It is really important to ask yourself if you really want a sport sedan. The tighter you get the less compliance you get. The non-air suspension benefits from a lot less slop. To me it feels almost as tight and buttoned down as the +. But clearly will not give you as much compliance which is needed for a plush, comfortable, more forgiving ride. Your tolerance for this extra tightness/harshness must be considered if you want a "poor man's" + (by getting non-air suspension and putting aggressive wheels and tires on). You can get pretty close to + handling responsiveness with a P85, non-air, aggressive tires/wheels but will definitely sacrifice compliance to get it.

I would gladly make that sacrifice in comfort to get the handling performance but I know what I am wishing for because I have owned a few pure sports cars which were a lot harsher than any of these options. The + is the best way to come close to the best of both worlds. As you point out, you can at least fall back on less aggressive tires/wheels if you find the ride too harsh.

 

[David Rhee]

I agree with @Pollux on P85+ vs P85. But, P85 still does quite well compared with most other cars out there. We're definitely spoiled here. :tongue: P85 feels just fine at sustained high speeds... P85+ is much better at cornering (of course).

 

[flashflood]

Funny. . .I had the opposite experience. Got a P85+ as a loaner and thought it was too tight and too rigid. I'm sure I'll get overwhelmingly shot down on this one but for driving around town on freeways and surface streets that was my experience. I think you really really have to caveat your original comments when comparing driving with 21's against 19" winters, to the point of discounting it as not really a fair comparison.

I agree, the wheels and tires are the high-order bit. Before buying, I drove two P85s, identical except for 19" vs. 21" wheels. The tail of the 19" was all over the place under aggressive acceleration, whereas the 21" felt rock solid, totally controlled.

P85 is to P85+ as Lexus GS is to BMW 5-series. It's not better or worse, it's just different goals.

FWIW, I think the wheels (and tires) matter more than usual because Tesla went with an open differential + single-wheel braking rather than a more conventional LSD. Overall I think that was a good call, but it does require a lot of road contact to behave well.

 

[andrewket]

I agree, the wheels and tires are the high-order bit. Before buying, I drove two P85s, identical except for 19" vs. 21" wheels. The tail of the 19" was all over the place under aggressive acceleration, whereas the 21" felt rock solid, totally controlled.

P85 is to P85+ as Lexus GS is to BMW 5-series. It's not better or worse, it's just different goals.

FWIW, I think the wheels (and tires) matter more than usual because Tesla went with an open differential + single-wheel braking rather than a more conventional LSD. Overall I think that was a good call, but it does require a lot of road contact to behave well.

What tires did you have on these wheels? A 19" with the same summer performance tire should be just as good (if not better, actually) than the 21".

 

[flashflood]

What tires did you have on these wheels? A 19" with the same summer performance tire should be just as good (if not better, actually) than the 21".

I wish I'd thought to check that at the time. Presumably whatever comes stock in each case.

Just out of curiosity, why would you expect the 19" to perform better? The smaller radius should imply less tire in contact with the road (front to back), and the 19" is narrower (side to side) as well.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I wish I'd thought to check that at the time. Presumably whatever comes stock in each case.

Just out of curiosity, why would you expect the 19" to perform better? The smaller radius should imply less tire in contact with the road (front to back), and the 19" is narrower (side to side) as well.

Tesla told me that the width of both 19" and 21" tires are the same. The only difference is that the 21" wheels have less sidewall, therefore a stiffer ride. I don't know much about tires.

 

[yobigd20]

Tesla told me that the width of both 19" and 21" tires are the same. The only difference is that the 21" wheels have less sidewall, therefore a stiffer ride. I don't know much about tires.

They are the same. Both are 245s. I have Michelin Pilot Sport A/S3 255/45ZR19s on it makes a world of a difference in terms of grip and cornering. This feels nothing like the goodyears did that we're slippery and sliding all over the place. IMO this is the way to go. All the benefits of the grip and cornering without any of the negatives of the 21s.

 

[andrewket]

I wish I'd thought to check that at the time. Presumably whatever comes stock in each case.

Just out of curiosity, why would you expect the 19" to perform better? The smaller radius should imply less tire in contact with the road (front to back), and the 19" is narrower (side to side) as well.

The width of the tires are the same - 245. 19's weigh less.

 

[jerry33]

Tesla told me that the width of both 19" and 21" tires are the same. The only difference is that the 21" wheels have less sidewall, therefore a stiffer ride. I don't know much about tires.

The nominal section width of the the tires is the same (the actual section width is close but not likely exactly the same). The tread width is not. 21" tires have a wider tread.
The section width is measured at the widest part of the tire (on the sidewall).

 

[ToddRLockwood]

This may have been stated already, but to make a fair P85/P85+ comparison, both cars must be running 21" wheels and the same model tire (Michelin PS2). The difference between 19" and 21" tires can be dramatic. I've run both sizes on my P85.

If cost is no object and absolute performance is the goal, by all means go for the P85+. But be prepared for tires that are more expensive and wear out more quickly, especially in the rear.