New vs Used value - From a buyers point of view

[MsElectric]

You are not saying anything most of us does not know already. A bunch of CPO cars, especially the 2015 models, are very badly priced. So you really have three options.

1. Buy a used car that is priced a lot higher than what it should be and end up paying for someone else's depreciation.
2. Buy a new car for about the cost of a 2015 CPO/inventory car and be the first owner taking delivery of a pristine car with just the options and color combination you want.
3. Wait for used car prices to be more in line with what they should be and not buy until that happens.

Most are picking either option 1 or 2.

Don't stress out too much about Tesla selling direct to customers. There are certain benefits to that. The only issue here seems to be that most of the newer (2015) used inventory is overpriced. As they learn that few want to buy a used car for about the same cost as a new car, they will reduce prices to reflect the actual depreciation set by the market.

When once they offered me several inventory cars that cost just about as much as a new car, I pointed out that at those prices I'd rather buy new as the cost difference is negligible. Then they pointed out how with an inventory car you can get the car right away and I politely explained that the only reason most people look for slightly used vehicles is for a discount on the price. They will get the message soon enough.

The bottom line is if you think the prices are too high, like most who are looking to buy do, wait for prices to come down.

Looking at a Pre Owned Model S from their site, I can see what seems a fully loaded Model S P90DL which costs 132,500 after EV Inc. and 140K cash price. with 1,228 miles

Well a new one costs (maxed out) 141,500 Cash and 124 After EV. (127 if I keep the rear facing seats as on the used) tell me in what freaking world that makes sense?


ANY used vehicle should at least have lost 20% of its value,. these cars MAYBE 10% AT LEAST. The fact you get to choose what you want. color etc. and its brand spankn' new you may as well go new. would be nice to be able to get one a little cheaper used.

NOPE:

Model S P90D 102535 | Tesla Motors



On a side note.

This is why i am kind of against an auto manufacturer who has zero competition to be allowed to also sell their own cars unlike most other manufacturers having to use independent dealers.

Private party MAYBE you can do slightly better but you lose so much in piece of mind. and they do that on purpose and inflate the resale value, when really NO car holds its value like that. not in reality. artificially yes. I will tell you this their stock will be crap though when Faraday and the others come out. the boom 2 years ago was the blast from min 30s to 200 but its maxed out I think.




Still want one tho haaha

 

[dsm363]

Pretty much everyone on this forum, me included really in 2 years the battery will have nearly doubled and the AP will be 10x better and the charging speed probably 50% faster. in 5 years time Faraday Future will be the competitor which competition is what drives innovation and then that is when we all will regret buying now. Just like all the suckers who buy Iphones 6 months later the new S model comes out. then a year later the new regular then 6 mos a S again

There will be a 180kWh pack in two years? Amazing.

 

[jgs]

Looking at a Pre Owned Model S from their site, I can see what seems a fully loaded Model S P90DL which costs 132,500 after EV Inc. and 140K cash price. with 1,228 miles

Well a new one costs (maxed out) 141,500 Cash and 124 After EV. (127 if I keep the rear facing seats as on the used) tell me in what freaking world that makes sense?


ANY used vehicle should at least have lost 20% of its value,. these cars MAYBE 10% AT LEAST. The fact you get to choose what you want. color etc. and its brand spankn' new you may as well go new. would be nice to be able to get one a little cheaper used.

NOPE:

Model S P90D 102535 | Tesla Motors



On a side note.

This is why i am kind of against an auto manufacturer who has zero competition to be allowed to also sell their own cars unlike most other manufacturers having to use independent dealers.

Private party MAYBE you can do slightly better but you lose so much in piece of mind. and they do that on purpose and inflate the resale value, when really NO car holds its value like that. not in reality. artificially yes. I will tell you this their stock will be crap though when Faraday and the others come out. the boom 2 years ago was the blast from min 30s to 200 but its maxed out I think.




Still want one tho haaha

I don't get it.

If it's priced too high, don't buy it. No gun to your head. If you find "don't buy it" is not an answer you can live with, I guess it's not priced too high.

Also, I really don't get the "against an auto manufacturer who has zero competition to be allowed" complaint in the context of used cars (which others have pointed out, this is not, but never mind). Anybody who wants to can sell a used Tesla. If you don't like Tesla's CPO pricing, go buy from the rest of the market. If you don't like what you find, your problem is with the market, not with Tesla, they aren't in a position to put their thumb on the scales. If your beef is that there aren't any/many P90Ds on the used market yet, gee, the model has been out for what, three months? Again, not seeing a whole lot of reason to blame Tesla that the market isn't flooded with used ones. How many used cars of any type can you find that were introduced three months ago?

I myself wish P90Ds were priced at $15,999 and had free car washes for life thrown in. I'd get one for every member of my family.

 

[gsxdsm]

I think your main point is invalid due to you including the gas savings you're including in one price and not the other.

 

[gizmoboy]

You are not saying anything most of us does not know already. A bunch of CPO cars, especially the 2015 models, are very badly priced. So you really have three options.
Don't stress out too much about Tesla selling direct to customers. There are certain benefits to that. The only issue here seems to be that most of the newer (2015) used inventory is overpriced. As they learn that few want to buy a used car for about the same cost as a new car, they will reduce prices to reflect the actual depreciation set by the market.

When once they offered me several inventory cars that cost just about as much as a new car, I pointed out that at those prices I'd rather buy new as the cost difference is negligible. Then they pointed out how with an inventory car you can get the car right away and I politely explained that the only reason most people look for slightly used vehicles is for a discount on the price. They will get the message soon enough.

The bottom line is if you think the prices are too high, like most who are looking to buy do, wait for prices to come down.

Prices will only come down if they cars aren't selling at the current price, which they largely seem to be.

 

[FloridaGary]

QUOTE=Navyguy;1242214]

Looking at a Pre Owned Model S from their site, I can see what seems a fully loaded Model S P90DL which costs 132,500 after EV Inc. and 140K cash price. with 1,228 miles

Well a new one costs (maxed out) 141,500 Cash and 124 After EV. (127 if I keep the rear facing seats as on the used) tell me in what freaking world that makes sense?


ANY used vehicle should at least have lost 20% of its value,. these cars MAYBE 10% AT LEAST. The fact you get to choose what you want. color etc. and its brand spankn' new you may as well go new. would be nice to be able to get one a little cheaper used.
__________________________________________

This is the same reason I decided to buy new vs CPO.

 

[freeewilly]

Somehow I have a different experience. Before the Tesla CPO site went live, the selection of used Tesla on eBay, Cars.com, Craigslist, AutoTrader..etc are very limited and extremely expensive, the sellers were listing any price they want, some cost as much as a brand new car and more. Not to mention the cars are located in different parts of the country. A few that cost less are either salvage title or scam. Since I was looking for a cheaper MS, it’s pretty much none existence.

Everything changed since the CPO website went live, Tesla set a standard price on how much a used Tesla cost, I see all the prices on these websites drop down to reflect their prices against Tesla’s, so no more inflated price on other websites. The price is clear and straight forward on CPO website. 2 Options: If I want it, I hit Buy. If I don't want it, I don't hit Buy.

 

[AMPd]

There will be a 180kWh pack in two years? Amazing.

I wonder how many times this post will be referred to in 2 years when tesla DOES NOT release a 180kwh battery

"I read it somewhere here" "someone on the forum had insider knowledge to the 180kwh pack"

and the classic "elon musk said there would be a 180kwh pack, a user on the forum heard it"

 

[ljwobker]

You are not saying anything most of us does not know already. A bunch of CPO cars, especially the 2015 models, are very badly priced. So you really have three options.

1. Buy a used car that is priced a lot higher than what it should be and end up paying for someone else's depreciation.
2. Buy a new car for about the cost of a 2015 CPO/inventory car and be the first owner taking delivery of a pristine car with just the options and color combination you want.
3. Wait for used car prices to be more in line with what they should be and not buy until that happens.

I have to (politely) disagree with #3 here. The prices "should be" whatever the market will bear. If people really really want Teslas more than other used cars, then the prices will be higher, as they "should be". To be pedantic, maybe we need to start answering these sort of questions with "The used market for Teslas is meaningfully different than other cars, so the depreciation curves will not necessarily look the same, and potential buyers shouldn't expect to be able to accurately predict Tesla pricing based on historical information".

But now I feel like a dirty lawyer. ;-)

 

[Vitold]

I have to (politely) disagree with #3 here. The prices "should be" whatever the market will bear. If people really really want Teslas more than other used cars, then the prices will be higher, as they "should be". To be pedantic, maybe we need to start answering these sort of questions with "The used market for Teslas is meaningfully different than other cars, so the depreciation curves will not necessarily look the same, and potential buyers shouldn't expect to be able to accurately predict Tesla pricing based on historical information".

But now I feel like a dirty lawyer. ;-)

One of the big reasons why expecting same rate of depreciation is that when you buy used Tesla it's very close to new tesla except wear and tear. Thanks to OTA updates "old" teslas can be new again.

Traditional car manufacturers purposefully make changes to each model each year in order to make new cars more attractive and used cars less.

Another advantage to buying used is that at some places excise tax is much higher on new cars.

 

[gizmoboy]

One of the big reasons why expecting same rate of depreciation is that when you buy used Tesla it's very close to new tesla except wear and tear. Thanks to OTA updates "old" teslas can be new again.

Traditional car manufacturers purposefully make changes to each model each year in order to make new cars more attractive and used cars less.

Another advantage to buying used is that at some places excise tax is much higher on new cars.

Well, to be fair, we do see substantially the same (very high) rate of depreciation on Teslas as in other luxury cars, which is higher than non-luxury cars.

While Tesla may be a few points lower than some luxury brands, they are still above the norm for mid-range ICEs, let alone ICEs in general.

So there's really no argument that depreciation is less with a Tesla.

 

[DiversifiedOne]

This is why i am kind of against an auto manufacturer who has zero competition to be allowed to also sell their own cars unlike most other manufacturers having to use independent dealers.

The percentage of used cars that Tesla itself sells is not very high. Right now I am in the process of trading in my Sept-2014. Tesla contracts with an independent inspection service (AIM - Alliance Inspection Management) to inspect the car, and then submits the report to a number of brokers who independently bid. They then send me the highest bid for approval/acceptance. I imagine Tesla can enter a bid itself and eliminate the middle man, if it feels there is a market, they need more loaners, etc. However, from what I understand, most of the cars end up going to the brokers. Of course, the next question would be, "Where are all these cars that end up going to brokers?" I can't answer that question, but I am definitely glad the bidding process gets me the most for my trade-in.

 

[JeffS]

I'm too new to be the voice of reason, but I will say that deals exist. You just have to look really hard, be willing to travel and be ready to pounce.
Personally, I consider it a very enjoyable challenge to get a deal that leaves most people shaking their heads. Just about everyone in any type of business has met someone like me. I'm that guy.

Couple of things I noted in my recent search.

D's and AP cars are not really out there in big numbers used. I'd even call them rare. I found a used AP car, but it is a RWD model. I'm good with that, even in WI because I have a big Expedition to drive during snow storms. I wouldn't drive an AWD Tesla in a snow storm either...with the truck right there ready to go.
The used cars that are out there in bigger numbers are RWD cars with no AP owned and being sold by people who want or have ordered a D/AP car.

People selling private party or nonTesla dealers selling Model S's are using Tesla's CPO site to price their cars. That doesn't mean they're selling. It just means they're being listed. Most people think every Tesla is a $100,000 or more car. And they have the paradigm of traditional car companies model year cycles to work with. So a used S 85 with 15,000 miles delivered in March 2014 must have been $100,000 and selling it one year old for $76,000 is a great deal. Never mind it doesn't have AP hardware and is almost 2 years old... Buyers for 85kWh non-AP cars are going to be there soon - but in the $50's and low $60's. It is what it is. There's a buyer for every car IFF the price is right.

Using NADA or KBB is difficult, and don't trust the listing for the model and options. Most non-Tesla people have no idea what the options and packages are on this car. I know of 3 out there now that are listed and priced as P85's even though they are 85's. That's a big difference. One is at a dealership, and I'm very confident they traded it as a P85. I reversed the VIN to find it's just an 85, but they are in it too deep they can't see the light of day.

Many sellers feel like their car should depreciate slower than it does, and enjoy their reality where they don't have to include the federal tax credit and other state credits in their calculations of depreciation. They don't necessarily sell their car...they just continue to own one that's for sale. Don't let their pricing scare you.

And finally, in my experience, most buyers don't get they deal the want because they are not suited to sell the buy. The seller is selling a car. The buyer is selling a deal to buy the car. Someone saying 'no' is just an intersection in the negotiation. 'No' almost never means go away. And when it does, then it's an acronym for Next Opportunity.

 

[StaceyS]

In my dealings with Tesla in purchasing our CPO vehicle, I got the feeling that cars were priced fairly. We were looking before the CPO website came out and we tentatively reached out to a couple used offerings and quickly realized there were a few different types of cars being sold: genuinely used cars purchased by people who owned the cars and drove them as their own, and cars which were purchased by companies for tax reasons.

The cars purchased by companies for tax reasons typically had pretty low miles on them, but indications of being driven hard. One 85 that we looked at appeared fairly clean, but it had new wheels and tires (it had been upgraded to 21" wheels), had 8,700 miles on it with lifetime consumption reading over 600 wh/mile. The used car dealer wanted $86k for it, and it was missing key features and options we wanted. They were completely unwilling to lower their price at all.

Then the CPO website went live. We found a few candidate cars, talked with Tesla while continuing to talk with this dealer. We told the dealer we could get a better equipped, similarly mileaged P85 for $10k less than their asking price for a moderately optioned 85. Still got no traction with them.

In talking with Tesla, we got the feeling that they had several cars which had been corporate tax purchases, and they were simply valuing cars based on new minus condition and mileage. They were also very frank with us about offering a price for a trade in. They told us they were only offering the trade in as a service, not a profit center. They would basically take our car and sell it to an auction house and whatever that price was would be Tesla's trade in offer. As such, it was about $3,000 lower than what we sold it for privately (a 2011 VW Jetta TDI Sportwagen). They didn't pressure us to take the offer.

Overall, it was probably the least pressured, easiest car purchase I've ever done. I wouldn't trade that for the dealership experience in a second.

 

[Super_Popular]

So the OP got banned?

 

[whitex]

Why is the OP banned? I don't post here a lot (heck I'm on my second MS and I only recently made an account) but how does banning work? It doesn't seem fair, no matter what OP's opinion is.

@Navyguy,
1. The car was not in the "Used" section, it is now called "Buy Model S Today" and it includes both CPO as well as new Inventory cars
2. The car in question was an inventory car (considered new, think demo car dealers sell as new if it helps you), depreciated as per usual $1/mile and per time. I've seen demo cars at dealerships sell at over MSRP (Acura NSX a while back to be specific).
3. The car is gone now, presumably sold at the price it was listed. You could argue it was priced too low since it sold so quickly.
4. You CAN buy use Model S from non-Tesla dealers, their listed prices are sometimes higher as they expect to negotiate (I recall seeing a base S60 for $79,777 at a VW dealership not too long ago - that's more than it retailed for new).
5. I've bought many new cars from dealers over the years (and no I'm nowhere near 60 years old). What people are referring to when talking about crooked dealers is the fact that it takes hours to negotiate a price, the dealer refusing to negotiate in anything but the monthly payment to obscure hidden fees, when you say something like $430 dollars per month would be ok, they come back with paperwork at $439 and say "you said $43x was ok", then once you think you're finally done negotiating you're bombarded with "rustproofing" and other upsells while doing financing work, then somehow your payment ends up a dollar or two higher than what you agreed upon because "the sales person did not know about some document fee", and when you refuse to buy the car you get comments like "what, you're too cheap to pay $1 extra per month?". All of these I've gotten over the years, most of these I experienced even a couple of years ago when buying a new car. I once even experienced a whole new low, where after 6 hours of negotiations, we agreed on the price for a car in transit to the dealership (I had the exact VIN number), I then paid the deposit, then before the car was ready I got a call saying "the sales manager sold you the car for too low of a price, we need another $2400 or you can take your deposit back". That's when I found out that putting the deposit down only binds me to buy the car, the dealership can get out of any time they wish (I consulted with a lawyer on that one). So yes, they didn't do anything illegal, because they don't have to, they dealer's association pays off the politicians to make laws in their favor (see Michigan and their anti-Tesla laws). To the credit of the car manufacturer (Toyota in this case), when I told them about it they sent me $500 check for buying the car (at a different dealership of course). To make things even more funny, that other dealership sent me a certified letter after 3 or 4 years (!) saying they undercharged me by $500. Luckily I financed the car through a bank and not the dealer, therefore they had no claims to the title, so I politely informed them it's their problem and all they've accomplished is that I will never buy a car there again. You can't make funnier stuff up.

 

[JRP3]

I could see the ban coming from a mile away, his posting "style" was a bit aggressive for this site.

 

[gsxdsm]

I could see the ban coming from a mile away, his posting "style" was a bit aggressive for this site.

Yeah I think his other post about how to lie about his income to get approved for a loan probably contributed to the ban.

 

[Super_Popular]

Yeah I think his other post about how to lie about his income to get approved for a loan probably contributed to the ban.

lmao

 

[digitaltim]

There will be a 180kWh pack in two years? Amazing.

I am all over that! ;-)