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What cooling hardware would that be? I think the S has a larger A/C compressor than the 3 does, and it certainly has the ability to use it to chill the motor coolant loop.
But the chiller that transfers heat between the coolant loop and the AC compressor is definitely different on the two cars and appears to be larger on Model 3. Hopefully i'm wrong, but i think Model S is due for some upgrades to make it compatible with 250 kW supercharging anyway and that's probably when they'd introduce a track mode and/or make it keep the motors cool automatically with a similar bit of software.
One lap of Ring is probably equivalent to 6 or 7 laps of Laguna Seca, with higher demand on high speed acceleration and handling.
Taycan's time is same as 981 GT4, which many regarded as one of the best sports cars in the last 10 years. It's just 4 shy seconds of the new BMW M5. So yes, the Taycan time is very impressive!
Ah, but that's the chiller assembly off of a 2012-2016 S. The Raven's is distinctly different, and while eyeballing unscaled drawings is surely a fool's game, it looks like the largest of the three to me.
Most of the front cooling system appears to have been reworked for the Raven, well beyond what would be expected/needed for the change in the drive unit alone, too.
Nice! I could only find the one picture on the EPC site, which section is your screenshot from? Or is it from a manual/other source?
Also, chiller aside are the motor cooling methods comparable between S and 3 now? I know in the past the S/X would run the coolant through the stator prior to the inverter which meant the inverter wasn't getting the coldest coolant possible. The 3 has coolant go through the inverter and then into another plate chiller to cool the motor oil.
It's definitely possible to make an S that lasts on track, i think it's just a question of if the Raven has all of that already or if we need to wait for the next version to come out (which again, likely won't be very long from now with 250 kW supercharging)
The EPC has two different Model S catalogs - 2012-2016 and 2016+. That image is from the 2016+ public EPC.
I would expect that the front PMSR drive unit is plumbed exactly the same as it is when installed as a rear drive unit on a 3, but I haven't taken any action to verify this. There's no indication that the cooling of the rear motor has changed on Raven that I saw in the EPC, but I'm not positive I would see it. Virtually all the hoses in front were changed for the Raven, though - not just the ones related to the drive unit. Not sure what that means.
I don't have proof, but I think the reason the 3 charge rates are higher is more about the chargeport and wiring to the chargeport and less about battery cooling or overall cooling capacity. Tesla did make the wiring to the chargeport larger on the Ravens, but they still give it a lower rating - not sure if there's a limitation inherent in the chargeport, or they couldn't make the wiring as big as the 3's, or if it is in fact the cooling where the 3's more parallel system with more contact area per cell is enough of a difference. Certainly the 3 has much bigger internal wiring than any previous S/X, and Tesla did enlarge it on the Raven.
dark cloud
Active Member
Oh man that is so awesome. I wonder if he is serious; looks like he knows the circuit well enough;
Anecdotaly, I think the Raven models have the same or at least a similar plate chiller as the Model 3 now - it's certainly different than non-Raven cars. I had my frunk tub out a few days ago and noticed a number of changes likely due to the new front motor and the coolant plumbing is completely different than the previous models. In combination with the dual cooling design in the latest (well 2017...) 100kWh batteries, the S may well have improved motor & battery cooling.
I wish I had paid more attention at the time.
It's also worth noting that the S now has (higher output versions) of the silcon carbide MOSFET based inverters found in the Model 3 - they are far more efficient and run much cooler than the older IGBT inverters in previous models.
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Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
Wonder if they have a new PMSR Motor in the rear. If Tesla does the TayCan$ is hosed. Where can we place beats on his “race”?
DanCar
Active Member
Should we create a poll, about which trick tesla has up its sleeve?
1) More efficient motor(s) in rear.
2) Software: Can it get much better performance relying primarily using the front efficient motor and only using the rear motor less frequently or under lower power?
3) Raven has improved cooling of rear motor
4) Specially modified car with extra cooling coils.
5) Other, or more than one of the above. Leave comment
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A whole new large motor? I doubt that.
They'd get all the benefit of that and more while avoiding the costs and efforts of developing a whole new motor if it uses two of the existing model 3 and Raven front PMSR motors in the rear instead, one driving each rear wheel and allowing active torque vectoring on both power and regen.
You know, like the 2020 Roadster is supposed to.
Not only would that give them complete relief from the power limiting and active torque vectoring, but based on what a Raven can do it gives them at least 240 kW of regenerative braking - if the pack can take it and they choose to use it. Not quite as much as the Taycan, but pretty close.
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Lol. That’s not the way camouflage works at the ring.
Everybody knows what’s going past them; the camo is to hide detail on prototype vehicles.
On the other hand - would Tesla be publically lining up a driver the week before the test? Seems risky. Unless Elon's just doing it for the extra publicity (ultimately costs to achieve track records fall under the marketing budget).
Porsche likely had at least a few drivers very familiar with the Taycan and the 'ring before attempting the record run.
Either way - should be interesting, but if Tesla doesn't get at least close (meaning within 20-30 seconds), it would be rather embarrassing.
Unless they've been planning for the car to run the course itself all along, and decided to let the public volunteer be the guy sitting in the seat with his arms folded in his lap...
I'm still not sure an S can beat the Taycan at it's specialty, but maybe that's not the intent? all Musk teased is that it will be at the 'ring next week. He didn't say why. Sport Cups aside, what if the intent is to demonstrate FSD? He could show 1) that an untrained Tesla can lap the 'ring on it's own (albeit not very fast). Maybe more importantly 2) how the same car can teach itself the track over multiple days, each day gaining familiarity and confidence just like a real driver., lapping faster and faster. To the point it can totally blow away any previous record for autonomous cars on the 'ring, even those that used lidar / high def maps and thousands of hours of tuning. That might be worth a lot more for the brand than competing against the Taycan.
Different category.
Taycan: best electric 4 door sports sedan
Model S: best electric family sedan
so the time actually won't matter
dark cloud
Active Member
I like where you are going with this. It would be a new record in the class of self-driving 4 door ev's.
6) need a new suspension setup (new geometry in addition to a new anti-roll bar, shocks, and spring combo)
7) need new brake and new brake cooling
8) need new aero for down force
9) need more tires
10) need an active differential
11) likely need a new subframe to increase chassis torsional stiffness and suspension response
12) may need to rebalance the weight of the car to bring weight closet to CG and reduce inertia to improve rotation rate
