FSD V12 Elon Demo

[Max Spaghetti]

My question was did Elon illegally use his phone while driving.

Maybe he did.

I'm pretty sure he was being particularly attentive not to run over anyone or otherwise cause an accident - I'd rather watch him use a phone illegally while driving than a drunk teenage girl trying to text her friends.

But it possibly sends the wrong message - whether or not he was holding the phone, it certainly looks as though he was holding the phone, and maybe signals to Tesla owners around the world that this is somehow OK (if Elon thinks it's safe, it must be!)

It's obviously not OK, so he shouldn't have streamed it that way. He had a passenger who could have held the phone - and probably should have said "my passenger is doing the video - never use your phone while driving with FSD beta".

He should have known better, but his brain is possibly too absorbed in FSD v12 to think it through. Sometimes small indiscretions can bring people down from great heights - they need to be careful when they are in the public eye.

Back to the thread:

HW4 was not demonstrated because the input to the neural network (video) is different. As such, it requires retraining on data from the HW4 system.

AI requires lots of data. Lots and lots and lots and lots of data.

They don't yet have enough of this data for HW4 cars--and they haven't done the NN training on HW4 yet.

That is a very interesting point.

If the NN uses "raw" camera data it may need complete retraining for HW4, which could mean a long lag time for HW4 vehicles to be enabled for v12. At least it gives me some confidence that my HW3 FSD Model 3 in Australia will get v12 FSD beta at some point. Maybe we'll skip v11 altogether.

I'm also glad he mentioned training in New Zealand - pretty similar road infrastructure to Australia. They did advertise for drivers in Australia some time back but I don't know if it's gone ahead.

 

[Rocket_man]

I didn't care at all about the lack of production qualities of the video. I was interested in the content. I thought the new implementation of FSD was very impressive. The car was driving like a human, making decisions I would make. It did 'California Roll' through stop signs when there was no one else in the intersection, it gave a biker more space, it stayed left on an empty street when it was going to turn left at the next intersection, it moved to the left lane that had fewer cars lined up at a stop light, it was keeping pace with traffic even though it was faster than the posted speed, and I thought it handled the unprotected left very well.

At $15,000 I'm still not a buyer, but if I had a major road trip, I may get it for a month to see it in action for myself.

One thing I would very much be interested to know is if the standard Autopilot will be implemented in NN's as well. Then maybe the car would give trucks a little more space, and speed up to pass them, phantom braking (which I haven't seen in a while) might be a thing of the past, and the car would pass other cars next to it instead of just mindlessly staying at its programmed speed. Not safe lurking next to another car or worse in its blind spot.

 

[TresLA]

Maybe he did.

I'm pretty sure he was being particularly attentive not to run over anyone or otherwise cause an accident - I'd rather watch him use a phone illegally while driving than a drunk teenage girl trying to text her friends.

But it possibly sends the wrong message - whether or not he was holding the phone, it certainly looks as though he was holding the phone, and maybe signals to Tesla owners around the world that this is somehow OK (if Elon thinks it's safe, it must be!)

It's obviously not OK, so he shouldn't have streamed it that way. He had a passenger who could have held the phone - and probably should have said "my passenger is doing the video - never use your phone while driving with FSD beta".

He should have known better, but his brain is possibly too absorbed in FSD v12 to think it through. Sometimes small indiscretions can bring people down from great heights - they need to be careful when they are in the public eye.

Back to the thread:


That is a very interesting point.

If the NN uses "raw" camera data it may need complete retraining for HW4, which could mean a long lag time for HW4 vehicles to be enabled for v12. At least it gives me some confidence that my HW3 FSD Model 3 in Australia will get v12 FSD beta at some point. Maybe we'll skip v11 altogether.

I'm also glad he mentioned training in New Zealand - pretty similar road infrastructure to Australia. They did advertise for drivers in Australia some time back but I don't know if it's gone ahead.

Musk has mentioned HW4 lagging behind HW3:

 

[clydeiii]

 

[clydeiii]

Typical Elon exaggeration. This be all, end all release still freaks out and sits at any unprotected intersection and when pedestrians are nearby. We are surely years from level 4 or better.

Maybe he deliberately used low tech, cellphone video to distract viewers from seeing the disappointing product — and based on this thread, it worked.

Based on the recap right above this that I posted, I suspect this will age poorly. Car is more humanlike than ever in that video.

 

[spacecoin]

Based on the recap right above this that I posted, I suspect this will age poorly. Car is more humanlike than ever in that video.

It's hard to tell if this "rewrite" is better. It can't apparently reliably detect a red light still.
I predict a 10x reliability improvement at best, which is still a long way from of autonomy (removing the human).

 

[clydeiii]

It's hard to tell if this "rewrite" is better. It can't apparently reliably detect a red light still.
I predict a 10x reliability improvement at best, which is still a long way from of autonomy (removing the human).

Yeah if 10x better than 11.4 isn’t “better” to you then yes, this won’t be “better.” I realize we do need 1000000x better than 11.4 to get to robotaxies but for my commute, 10x better than 11.4 is amazing (as I already use 11.4 for every single commute).

We then turn to, what is the rate they can improve this? Getting rid of 300k of human written code seems like a huge win. We need more data to understand how quickly they can train and release new versions.

 

[kriskros91]

Seems like they have a Microsoft/Apple problem now. Having to keep older hardware up to date for as long as possible while also using the new capabilities of HW4.

Also what is to be made of the Phoenix HD-radar in the HW4 Model S/X? Just extra stuff that will never be turned on?

 

[fasteddie7]

Musk has mentioned HW4 lagging behind HW3:

View attachment 968552

Is this the first time anyone from Tesla even acknowledged publicly the existence of HW4 officially? It seems like employees went out of their way to not say HW4 and replace it with “your car has the latest available hardware”

 

[Dan D.]

Was there any proof that he was actually using V12? I think Chuck Cook asked to see the version screen, did Elon show the version, and could we tell that it was really V12 running there? Not V11 with new visual differences, or perhaps there were no differences. Could it have been nothing new at all? Certainly it didn't beep at him for distraction driving (using Elon god mode perhaps, but he had that on V11).

They did go through a random road construction which seemed without issue in the video. They also discussed random weather condition considerations also.

I found it kind of funny that Elon drove through construction immediately outside their HQ and said "the computer has never seen this road construction before..... well yes it's right outside the office but it's new construction" - or words to that effect. I think as soon as he said his "truth" he realized it was a pretty lame statement, obviously the cars have driven outside HQ. But the cones are brand new, ok sure.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I personally am very impressed with this new direction and greater hope that they are now on the right path to solve this never before solved problem

Hope springs eternal. This is just another step on the years-long path of this journey. We’ve seen this sort of excitement over a new approach before and this will not be any different. Likely will lead to incremental improvements at some indeterminate point.

Christmas Is coming guys/aka holiday release

No, it will not be ready for Christmas. This is going to take a long time to get ready and four months will not be enough.

but it was very poorly done, unsafe and illegal given driver distractions.

Yep. Also resulted in a driver honking at him for an illegal lane change without a signal a little after 18:00. Luckily he didn’t hit anyone. But as I said elsewhere, he seemed oblivious to it so this may explain why he thinks FSD is good. It may well improve his driving. It was a super easy situation and a mistake even a novice driver does not make.

 

[dbldwn02]

Pretty cool, but...Worst quality video evaaar....

 

[jbrady3324]

I’m curious if his HW3 Model S has radar enabled

Also what is to be made of the Phoenix HD-radar in the HW4 Model S/X? Just extra stuff that will never be turned on?

I’m very curious about this as well.

 

[Yelobird]

Was there any proof that he was actually using V12? I think Chuck Cook asked to see the version screen, did Elon show the version, and could we tell that it was really V12 running there? Not V11 with new visual differences, or perhaps there were no differences. Could it have been nothing new at all? Certainly it didn't beep at him for distraction driving (using Elon god mode perhaps, but he had that on V11).


I found it kind of funny that Elon drove through construction immediately outside their HQ and said "the computer has never seen this road construction before..... well yes it's right outside the office but it's new construction" - or words to that effect. I think as soon as he said his "truth" he realized it was a pretty lame statement, obviously the cars have driven outside HQ. But the cones are brand new, ok sure.

You certainly are hunting for a conspiracy. Not what I viewed but sure why not.

 

[Mullermn]

it’s pretty funny how hard people are reaching to poke holes in this demo. They’re missing the point by so very far.

300,000 lines of C++ have been deleted. Those lines represent God knows how many hours of design, programming and testing time to get to the level that the 11 series is at, and this new approach, which is still internal-only, is able to more or less equal it in most of its mechanics (and far exceed it in some areas) already, purely by learning from human example.

The implications are pretty massive, but to summarise 2:
1) Tesla are the only company on earth to have a massive data gathering and test platform in the form of the vehicle fleet and they are uniquely positioned to make this approach work. Assuming this does turn out to be the methodology that solves self driving cars then nobody else is getting a look in, Tesla will have an effective monopoly on this technology a decade from now.
2) There’s nothing special about cars. If Optimus can be trained in the same way things are going to get very interesting.

 

[JulienW]

Was there any proof that he was actually using V12? I think Chuck Cook asked to see the version screen, did Elon show the version, and could we tell that it was really V12 running there? Not V11 with new visual differences, or perhaps there were no differences. Could it have been nothing new at all? Certainly it didn't beep at him for distraction driving (using Elon god mode perhaps, but he had that on V11).....

While it is impossible to know if it was a completely different software (like he claims V12 is) it does behave completely different when carefully analyzed. So it has extremely different behaviors than the V11 we are using. Here is a short 10 minute video by an excellent FSD Beta tester that analyzes and points out some of the differences that are CLEARY not V11 behaviors or features.

 

[kpanda17]

While it is impossible to know if it was a completely different software (like he claims V12 is) it does behave completely different when carefully analyzed. So it has extremely different behaviors than the V11 we are using. Here is a short 10 minute video by an excellent FSD Beta tester that analyzes and points out some of the differences that are CLEARY not V11 behaviors or features.

Come on guys, Elon is not sick
He’s running a business, pioneer of innovation
From where he has come from to where he is And accomplished
Just compare to others
Give him a break, no fraud with V12
Leave and goto rhe Toyota forum, hang with them

 

[Pink Duck]

Curious to know if FSD will start decelerating/accelerating ahead of a signed speed limit change, like most humans do.

It all comes down to the guidance given to the human labellers as to how the car should respond now.

Hopefully not slowing down in rain (if it knows that) and tailgating.

 

[azred]

… And if, indeed, Tesla trained it as described, by simply providing the NNs with example driving videos, it should make expansion of FSD to the rest of the world much easier than having to hard code separate driving policies for each country.
…

That might be true if every country and every U.S. state had uniform rules of the road including uniform signage, lane markings etc etc. But of course, they don’t. For example, when I lived in California, the car pool lanes had defined entry and exit points and one could not cross a solid line to enter or exit. Right next door in AZ, one does cross solid white lines to enter/exit. And on portions of Phoenix freeways there are double white lines to cross instead of a single white line. Not sure how feeding videos will solve that situation and there must be dozens of other such situations just in this country, much less internationally.

So unless the car has tons of videos from every U.S. state/local jurisdiction and every “state” in every other country — and most importantly, the car knows which ”state” or other local jurisdiction rules to follow, I don’t see how this can work.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Curious to know if FSD will start decelerating/accelerating ahead of a signed speed limit change, like most humans do.

It all comes down to the guidance given to the human labellers as to how the car should respond now.

Hopefully not slowing down in rain (if it knows that) and tailgating.

Say most decelerate ahead is a bit presumptuous. Certainly accelerating ahead is normal behavior, but I would expect regulators to come down hard on routine early acceleration.