Never needed to be an ass. Every single one of the approximately 50 superchargers I have been at has been clearly marked.
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Never needed to be an ass. Every single one of the approximately 50 superchargers I have been at has been clearly marked.
I hate to disagree with you but I've been doing this trip for years from NJ and there are chargers that can be bypassed if you are willing to charge to 100%, for example I almost always do a full charge at Newark De and go down to glenn allen VA, in fact the first trip I didn't have a choice the other SpCs weren't in place yet, going along you could do a full charge at Santee SC and skip Savannah, then you could charge at kingsland Ga and skip St. Augustine, going to Port Orange, then you could skip Port St. Lucie and charge at W. Palm
my point is that you do have options on I95. it depends on how you care to budget your charging times.
they are clearly labled 1A-B, 2 A-B. they may not be adjacent nonetheless they are paired.
Yeah, notice that he actually said this?
"it's impossible to skip a charger without charging far into the taper," That's the charging to 100% that you are talking about, so it's what he already said.
cpa
Active Member
I thank David99 for trying to give us a heuristic approach to Supercharging strategy. From the responses above and from my personal experience, there can be no definitive solution that can apply to each of us. Moreover, his very good example that he provided us shows that the total time differential is not that material--26 minutes for a twenty-one hour journey. That is about a 2% time savings.
When we travel there are many unknowns ahead of us. City traffic (like driving to and from the Vegas Supercharger) could be nil at midnight but heavy at 3:30 in the afternoon. Sometimes finding the gosh darn things can be tricky. Charging while enjoying a nice lunch or dinner might more than offset the few minutes saved by grabbing fast food to continue the "stop at every one" approach. Similarly, charging first thing in the morning at your hotel while you are grabbing breakfast and checking out often puts enough range in the car to skip the proximate Supercharger.
In short, David99's heuristic validated my personal approach to the many trips that I have taken. Charge what you need--usually to get you to the next Supercharger--but combine that with common sense and opportunity charging now to skip the next one if possible.
When we travel there are many unknowns ahead of us. City traffic (like driving to and from the Vegas Supercharger) could be nil at midnight but heavy at 3:30 in the afternoon. Sometimes finding the gosh darn things can be tricky. Charging while enjoying a nice lunch or dinner might more than offset the few minutes saved by grabbing fast food to continue the "stop at every one" approach. Similarly, charging first thing in the morning at your hotel while you are grabbing breakfast and checking out often puts enough range in the car to skip the proximate Supercharger.
In short, David99's heuristic validated my personal approach to the many trips that I have taken. Charge what you need--usually to get you to the next Supercharger--but combine that with common sense and opportunity charging now to skip the next one if possible.
mikeash
Active Member
No need to mess with people's charging, just look at the labels on the stalls. 1A is paired with 1B, 2A is paired with 2B, etc.
sadly out there in the real world there are so many tesla owners that do not embrace the valuable info that is offered on sites like this and are not informed on this huge detail.
Just last week I was on a road trip and stopped at a SpC in Ocala FL for a charge, I was the only car there, and as I returning to my car upon completing the charge another car was pulling in. I was on 2B and of course I watched in awe of the cluelessness as they pulled into to 2A and began to charge.
I was with my wife and another couple and they were an unusual group as well and I wasn't in the mood for chit chat or I would have expounded on how they should always avoid charging on a charger that is paired with one where another car is charging.
Something I have done numerous times.
I think it would be safe to say that less than 1 in 20 tesla owners actually know anything about charging at a SpC or anything else about the workings of their cars. [/rant off]
Totally agree and it is really up to Tesla to come up with a easy way to make people aware of longer charge times when pulling into the wrong stall. They barely mention it on their website, but in reality there is so much information when buying a EV for the first time, it's just overwhelming. It would be nice if the car would communicate with the Supercharger site when pulling in and direct you to the stall that has the most power available.
Thanks for trying to mis-represent my post with an unnecessary slight. Had you represented accurately, you'd note that of the 7 suggestions for "charging at every SC isn't the fastest", only one of them was bay area. One of them, in fact, was your backyard. Since we're talking about your backyard as opposed to my rosy region, please find me any realistic route where charging in Tooele and SLC results in the fastest trip time. I challenge you.
Perfect example. For many SLC to PDX situations, you can easily skip the Tremonton charger on the way there and even the Pendleton charger on the way back. Ergo, for your real world route, the fastest total time can indeed be to skip chargers. Ergo, you just proved the OP wrong.
Lol. Could be that its a pile, but its clearly a beta version. Instead of taking your approach, I leave mine on as much as possible because I'd like to make us better. Will data from my car ultimately make the trip planner better? I don't know. But I do know that the answer would be "no" if I turned it off completely.
I disagree--the approach is binary and absolute. Reality requires a 'but' or 'except' for almost every supercharger trip, yet the OP does not acknowledge that the subject tagline is, in fact, rarely true. I don't want to believe the OP is presenting this information in some nefarious manner, so the only explanation is that the OP doesn't actually understand how superchargers work...and that's pretty scary when the posts are considered 'hueristic'.
As we get more and more 'regular' people on our EV side of the fence, we're going to get more and more people that are just overwhelmed with the differences between ICE and EV. The OP's approach of presenting the subject tagline does these people a disservice. It does no good to teach a man to fish, but not tell them they need to use bait. That's what the OP is doing.
That's exactly right. THAT'S the kind of information that should be passed to owners.
Did you actually read my post? It seems you are only responding to the subject line. Maybe take a moment and go back and read the last paragraph.
As for accusing me of not understanding how Superchargers work. I drove more than 35k miles on long road trips each taking a lot of charging stops. Well over 300 charging sessions at over 50 different Superchargers. I had plenty opportunity to observe and learn and optimize. Exactly because I understand how Superchargers work I was able to save a lot of time on those long trips.
I never said that's the only way to do road trips. I specifically said when it comes to saving time that method works well. I specifically mentioned there are other factors that might be more important than just optimizing for time.
I must have missed the part where you said "but really, what I'm telling you rarely holds true". Tell you what, why don't you reread your post(s) from the perspective of an EV noob that knows very little about efficient distance travel. What do you think they're going to take away from your lesson?
Come on, even your own example has you skipping RC.
Anyone improve on these rules of thumb?
1. Range charge at home.
2. drive to the farthest SC on your route that you can safely get to. (IE skip any in between).
3. Charge only enough to safely get to the next SC that is at least ~100 miles away. (Skip any in between)
4. Repeat.
5. Plan meals and longer stops wisely to coincide with any need or benefit from a fuller charge in the slow taper zone.
That results in spending most time charging at the fastest rate when the battery is mostly empty and staying out of the taper range unless you were taking longer stop anyway.
1. Range charge at home.
2. drive to the farthest SC on your route that you can safely get to. (IE skip any in between).
3. Charge only enough to safely get to the next SC that is at least ~100 miles away. (Skip any in between)
4. Repeat.
5. Plan meals and longer stops wisely to coincide with any need or benefit from a fuller charge in the slow taper zone.
That results in spending most time charging at the fastest rate when the battery is mostly empty and staying out of the taper range unless you were taking longer stop anyway.
this is the way I try to do it, the only thing that I would add is to try and emulate the way a small plane pilot would map his trip out by checking the maps of chargers before embarking on your road trip and to be well informed of all of your charging options along the way. While rare sometimes you may not be able to charge where you thought you would be able to and being aware of the alternatives is important.
To minimize trip time, I suggest:
1) Charge to 100% overnight.
2) Leave very early to avoid traffic. 3 or 4 AM would be ideal.
3) Bring snacks and bottled water so that you never have to stop to eat or buy anything
4) Do all the usual car prep for a hypermiling contest: Buy new ultra LLR tires and have them shaved to 50% tread depth, set to max tire pressure, or beyond, apply tape to all the bodywork and door seams to minimize aero drag, add aero wheel covers, remove any unused items from the car to save weight, including unused seats, second charger, etc.
5) Keep all windows closed and the heat and A/C off, of course
6) Drive as fast as possible without crashing or losing your license
7) Drive to the furthest supercharger on your route you can safely get to
8) Plan each supercharger stop, carefully weighing the extra time to get off and back on the highway vs. extra charge time at the next supercharger. Likely resulting in stopping at every supercharger that is more than 60-90 miles from your last stop.
9) When you arrive at a supercharger, hang an "out of order" sign on the paired stall
10) Calculate the charge time to safely get to your next planned supercharger, and set a timer to remind you of your departure time
11) Take a bathroom break right away, to be sure that you will be back at the car when your timer goes off
12) When your timer is down to 1 minute, have everything ready to go with the driver's door open and your hand on the plug. When it goes off, quickly unplug and race to the drivers seat and zoom off back to the highway as fast as possible.
13) At your last supercharger stop of the day, charge just enough to safely reach your destination with overnight charging.
Actually, I would only recommend the bolded items, and maybe leaving early to avoid traffic. Normal people are not really serious about minimizing trip time, but if you are....
Personally, I think enjoying your trip and your Tesla is far more important than minimizing time. If (when?) I get a Tesla, I plan to:
1) Plan your trip with stops to eat, shop, and sightsee. Pick the Superchargers at places you would like to stop, either for a short break, or a long one.
2) Charge to 100% overnight. (Hopefully Tesla will get around to adding the "charge based on departure time" feature)
3) Drive to the furthest supercharger on your route you can safely get to, or earlier if your plan indicates
4) If this is your lunch stop, charge to 100%, or when you finish lunch, whichever comes first.
5) Drive to the furthest supercharger on your route you can safely get to, or earlier if your plan dictates.
6) Always charge long enough to safely reach your next planned supercharger, of course
7) Avoid stopping less than 60-90 miles from your last stop.
8) At your last supercharger stop of the day, charge just enough to safely reach your destination with overnight charging.
Enjoy your trip,
GSP
1) Charge to 100% overnight.
2) Leave very early to avoid traffic. 3 or 4 AM would be ideal.
3) Bring snacks and bottled water so that you never have to stop to eat or buy anything
4) Do all the usual car prep for a hypermiling contest: Buy new ultra LLR tires and have them shaved to 50% tread depth, set to max tire pressure, or beyond, apply tape to all the bodywork and door seams to minimize aero drag, add aero wheel covers, remove any unused items from the car to save weight, including unused seats, second charger, etc.
5) Keep all windows closed and the heat and A/C off, of course
6) Drive as fast as possible without crashing or losing your license
7) Drive to the furthest supercharger on your route you can safely get to
8) Plan each supercharger stop, carefully weighing the extra time to get off and back on the highway vs. extra charge time at the next supercharger. Likely resulting in stopping at every supercharger that is more than 60-90 miles from your last stop.
9) When you arrive at a supercharger, hang an "out of order" sign on the paired stall
10) Calculate the charge time to safely get to your next planned supercharger, and set a timer to remind you of your departure time
11) Take a bathroom break right away, to be sure that you will be back at the car when your timer goes off
12) When your timer is down to 1 minute, have everything ready to go with the driver's door open and your hand on the plug. When it goes off, quickly unplug and race to the drivers seat and zoom off back to the highway as fast as possible.
13) At your last supercharger stop of the day, charge just enough to safely reach your destination with overnight charging.
Actually, I would only recommend the bolded items, and maybe leaving early to avoid traffic. Normal people are not really serious about minimizing trip time, but if you are....
Personally, I think enjoying your trip and your Tesla is far more important than minimizing time. If (when?) I get a Tesla, I plan to:
1) Plan your trip with stops to eat, shop, and sightsee. Pick the Superchargers at places you would like to stop, either for a short break, or a long one.
2) Charge to 100% overnight. (Hopefully Tesla will get around to adding the "charge based on departure time" feature)
3) Drive to the furthest supercharger on your route you can safely get to, or earlier if your plan indicates
4) If this is your lunch stop, charge to 100%, or when you finish lunch, whichever comes first.
5) Drive to the furthest supercharger on your route you can safely get to, or earlier if your plan dictates.
6) Always charge long enough to safely reach your next planned supercharger, of course
7) Avoid stopping less than 60-90 miles from your last stop.
8) At your last supercharger stop of the day, charge just enough to safely reach your destination with overnight charging.
Enjoy your trip,
GSP
All sound advice, though I think the bogey on this is probably half that distance if you're trying to minimize total time. Of course, 'skip if less than 50 miles' and 'go at least 100 miles' are probably saying the same thing except for really dense areas (like LA)...but as charger density increases around the country, the two statements may start to diverge more.
Related....While implied in your points, from a heuristic perspective a noob would benefit from understanding how weather/vehicle/payload affects the numbers. There will no doubt be situations where charging at primm and LV while traveling up the 15 will result in the fastest trip time, for instance.
A sub point of your #1, for multi day trips destination (overnight) charging can help the equation too, if you find a charging enabled place where you would overnight anyway. The benefit will become even larger and the trade will become less necessary as EV adoption spreads and slow chargers are ubiquitous.
Finally, while slightly more advanced, knowing a bit about the chargers you plan to visit is going to help. There are a handful of 'avoid if you can' chargers in CA and other areas where it's a crapshoot if you'll find an unpaired stall or a line of cars waiting. Especially during heavy traffic events that can happen elsewhere (does the one in Delaware still have four stalls?). Sometimes it's worth hedging a bigger charge to skip them.
Because the adoption curve is increasing, because everyone's trips are so unique, and because the rules of the game will constantly change (charge times, quantity of chargers, efficiency, etc) I think its even more important to identify all the variables (like you've done) so people understand how to pull the levers themselves to maximize their trip experience.
Quote: “Thanks for trying to mis-represent my post with an unnecessary slight. Had you represented accurately,”
It was a direct quote; can’t really get more accurate than that. Anyway…
Quote: “you'd note that of the 7 suggestions for "charging at every SC isn't the fastest", only one of them was bay area. One of them, in fact, was your backyard.”
Ah, so you’re going back to a different topic. As you recall, I was in the camp that this stuff sometimes varies, depending on eating stops and spacing of chargers. So I was not the one making the big claims.
Quote: “please find me any realistic route where charging in Tooele and SLC results in the fastest trip time. I challenge you.”
Oh, you challenge me? Sorry, that’s not how it works, pal, reversing it to put the burden of proof on me. I didn’t make the grand claims; you did. I never said ALL routes should use ALL Superchargers ALL the time, so I don’t have to prove Tooele is useful. Tooele is an oddball and just shouldn’t really be there. It’s probably skippable most of the time. The big claim you made was this:
“There are VERY few, if any real world road trips where the fastest total time is to stop at every supercharger.”
I pointed out Salt Lake City to Portland (or any subsections of it) is quite a long way, without skippable situations. Here’s another one. It’s one of the most heavily traveled routes through the country, on I-70. From Green River Utah, all the way through to Indianapolis is over 1,400 miles, and contains 14 Superchargers, not counting the endpoints. None of those are very skippable. There are a lot of “real world road trips” within that.
Quote: “Perfect example. For many SLC to PDX situations, you can easily skip the Tremonton charger on the way there and even the Pendleton charger on the way back.”
Heh heh, you are shooting yourself in the foot and might want to consider not reloading the gun. That is ridiculous on its face, but I’m worried that you actually believe this. Keep the number of a towing service with you. Skipping the Tremonton charger would be Salt Lake City to Twin Falls in one shot. EVTripplanner shows that using about 237 rated miles in pretty good conditions, but there’s a pretty solid batch of mountains to go over, so temperature is not your friend a lot of the time. Here is a tale of forum user @mmh trying approximately that route. He was driving Salt Lake City to Village of Trees RV Resort in Declo, about 45 miles short of Twin Falls, and it was white-knuckling and 60mph on the 80mph highway.
Salt Lake City, Utah to Boise, Idaho
And for skipping Pendleton, that is 262 rated miles! So enjoy the hour to hour and a half charge to 100% in The Dalles and of course the total lack of any heating or cooling. You have a really messed up idea of “easily skippable”.
Quote: “Ergo, for your real world route, the fastest total time can indeed be to skip chargers. Ergo, you just proved the OP wrong.”
Ergo! Vis a vis! Concordantly! [MTV Movie Awards riff on Matrix Reloaded]
What are you talking about? I wasn’t responding to the OP.
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