Business case for CHAdeMO stations

[TonyWilliams]

Thanks, all good questions, but I thought that since Blathering1 is in the business of providing charging facilities to the public that perhaps he could elaborate from his point of view.

Perhaps Tony could also discuss how telecommunications charges effects the overall cost picture.

Larry

Currently, all our telecommunications are through ChargePoint. So, we pay them a fee for this service that is based on the total sale revenue. In addition, credit cards charge several percent of the sales revenue for their service.

If you are giving away the service, you likely won't have any telecommunication or other network charges. What would be the point when you can just "advertise" the location on PlugShare and they will come, proportional to how many electric cars there are in the area.

 

[dirkhh]

Currently, all our telecommunications are through ChargePoint. So, we pay them a fee for this service that is based on the total sale revenue. In addition, credit cards charge several percent of the sales revenue for their service.

That's what I thought. Need to check on their site if they make their fee schedule available.

PS: I am happy to see you continue the conversation. You have likely more insight into this than most others here. I wasn't trying to piss you off or drive you away...

 

[TonyWilliams]

If I owned a LEAF, on the other hand and a Chademo charger made an appealing trip possible (or a lot less stressful), I'd use it a lot. A San Juan Capistrano Chademo, located right between LA and San Diego seems to fit that bill. Location location location...

I with Tony luck with all the LEAFs and other short-range Chademo-enabled EVs. But even if the adapter shows up, I doubt that recharges from S's will add much revenue.

The San Juan Capistrano Residence Inn CHAdeMO station is just a short hop south of the new Supercharger site in the same city. While I don't expect a lot of Tesla traffic for that very reason, I guarantee that if you're staying overnight at the hotel, or even just taking a short shopping trip at the nearby Costco, it will be far more convenient to charge here.

The LEAF significantly outnumbers all Tesla cars, plus due to the relatively short range, REALLY NEEDS to have public infrastructure. The business model is significantly better than a long range car that has a nearby "free" charging station that is far quicker in recharging. We will likely have a Tesla CHAdeMO adaptor at every site, however.

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That's what I thought. Need to check on their site if they make their fee schedule available.

PS: I am happy to see you continue the conversation. You have likely more insight into this than most others here. I wasn't trying to piss you off or drive you away...

Oh, I've been at the Internet forum game a LOOOOOooooooong time. Started with "AvSig" on Compuserve in the 1980's, back when we were required to use our real name... I still do.

The hacks that pop on and call me a TROLL (I even got a lovely personal message from that pile of human waste material) are just part of the exercise. Since I'm frequently a moderator on the many of the forums that I visit, I have a zero tolerance policy on personal attacks, sex, religion and just general "flaming", which means it would just get fixed and we move on.

Here, I also get "negative reputation" from the moderator while the troll comment remains. Different strokes for different folks; I guess I just grin and bear it.

 

[TonyWilliams]

An unsubsidized DC charger is still (according to PluginAmerica) going to cost you $15k plus installation. The two local non-Nissan CHAdeMO stations where I talked to management said that their total cost for charger plus installation cost was north of $20k.

The average cost of an install, according to Nissan, is about $48,000. If you are paying that much, you will never get your money back. The cheapest CHAdeMO station is $15k, however any other brand does cost far more than that.

The bad part about averages and generalities is that in every average is a high and a low... I recommend the low number when you're discussing profitable public DC charging. Since you already know that the transformer location "has nothing to do with the installation cost", I'll just reiterate that you don't know what you're talking about.

That thinking doesn't even pass a simple logic process. Go ask a contractor how much it costs to dig a trench for 480 volt 3 phase power, with asphalt and concrete cutting. Try it with a steel reinforced concrete parking structure. Every foot away from that transformer is real money going out the window.

Plus, you generally don't own the property, so it's not an improvement that adds value to your property... it's a cost that has to be amortized over the life of the use agreement.

So even for a highly desirable location with lots of traffic from people coming by for an hour or two... it still is not an obvious winner. And please try to stay reasonably close to the facts. "at a hotel" for a place that will open as a hotel "soon"?

Since the hotel I was referring to is "not open yet" (it's brand new), that seems kind of important when discussing a publicly available charge station with two DC chargers at that site. That actually is a fact.

Profitable public DC charging is a HUGE gamble and challenge, and I have hashed over the issues ad nauseam over the years. It was a real pleasure dealing with the "Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM)" crowd when the concept of PAYING for such a service was considered a few years ago. When it was planned, there really wasn't a guarantee that electric cars would be around in volume, or fade away again like 2003.

a DC charger at a hotel, predominantly intended to be used by overnight guests makes less sense than the cheaper installation of half a dozen L2 chargers.

This is once again where your assumptions cloud your conclusions; few overnight guests use a well placed charger in a high traffic area. The ACTUAL DATA from our existing CHAdeMO suggests that the average charge is only 15 minutes. By the way, it is not only the busiest, but also the very first DC charger on the ChargePoint network. It's also not a Nissan branded unit (that you also assumed in another post). The two additional DC chargers are at a different high traffic site and they are both Nissan units.

We will have other sites opening throughout SoCal in the coming months / years.

 

[TexasEV]

In all fairness, I believe that there are many more supercharging enabled Model S (which could use a CHAdeMO adapter) than there are dual charger Model S (I certainly fall into that category).

High amp level 2 benefits the majority of us with single chargers too-- it means we can charge at 40A rather than 30A. Over a few hours charging at a destination that makes a huge difference.

 

[TonyWilliams]

High amp level 2 benefits the majority of us with single chargers too-- it means we can charge at 40A rather than 30A. Over a few hours charging at a destination that makes a huge difference.

But, you still get only 208 volts instead of the 240 volts you get at home. Yes, better than 30 amps at 208 volts, but still lower than home charging.

 

[TexasEV]

But, you still get only 208 volts instead of the 240 volts you get at home. Yes, better than 30 amps at 208 volts, but still lower than home charging.

Not necessarily, it depends on the location. The recently installed CS-60 (48A) charging stations in Fredericksburg, TX that the Austin area Tesla owners pushed for are on 240V circuits and gave me 29 mile/hr charging.

 

[stopcrazypp]

This is once again where your assumptions cloud your conclusions; few overnight guests use a well placed charger in a high traffic area.

I think you two are arguing past each other. dirkhh's main point is that it does not make sense for a hotel to pick a DC charger over multiple L2s if the hotel's goal is mainly for the chargers to serve guests that stay there (as may be the case in hotels in lower traffic areas). dirkhh's assumptions are critical to his argument because he is not saying that *in all cases* it makes no sense for a hotel pick a DC charger over multiple L2s.

You show an example of a DC charger installed in a high traffic area that mainly serves people not using the hotel (rather than the guests). This would seem to be a special case that's different from what dirkhh is talking about. It shows if the hotel happens to be in a high traffic area, it may make sense to install a DC charger.

 

[dirkhh]

The average cost of an install, according to Nissan, is about $48,000.

YIKES!!!!!

If you are paying that much, you will never get your money back. The cheapest CHAdeMO station is $15k, however any other brand does cost far more than that.

The bad part about averages and generalities is that in every average is a high and a low... I recommend the low number when you're discussing profitable public DC charging. Since you already know that the transformer location "has nothing to do with the installation cost", I'll just reiterate that you don't know what you're talking about.

I meant it in the larger context of "10ft or 30ft will not make a huge difference in the total cost" (especially if the total is $48k), but I did overstate that part, I guess.

That thinking doesn't even pass a simple logic process. Go ask a contractor how much it costs to dig a trench for 480 volt 3 phase power, with asphalt and concrete cutting. Try it with a steel reinforced concrete parking structure. Every foot away from that transformer is real money going out the window.

Plus, you generally don't own the property, so it's not an improvement that adds value to your property... it's a cost that has to be amortized over the life of the use agreement.

I had to get 240V 2 phase power across a driveway so I assumed that the cost for 480V / 3phase would be a similar order of magnitude. And of course local code and conditions may have massive impact on that as well.

Profitable public DC charging is a HUGE gamble and challenge, and I have hashed over the issues ad nauseam over the years. It was a real pleasure dealing with the "Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM)" crowd when the concept of PAYING for such a service was considered a few years ago. When it was planned, there really wasn't a guarantee that electric cars would be around in volume, or fade away again like 2003.
This is once again where your assumptions cloud your conclusions; few overnight guests use a well placed charger in a high traffic area. The ACTUAL DATA from our existing CHAdeMO suggests that the average charge is only 15 minutes. By the way, it is not only the busiest, but also the very first DC charger on the ChargePoint network. It's also not a Nissan branded unit (that you also assumed in another post). The two additional DC chargers are at a different high traffic site and they are both Nissan units.

My mistake - I looked on different sites to figure out how much you charged and remembered you saying that you had dual CHAdeMO and saw the two Nissan chargers.

We will have other sites opening throughout SoCal in the coming months / years.

Very cool. And best of luck.
I really, truly, honestly hope that you can make this work. Profitable DC chargers have the potential to make a huge difference in EV adoption. I wish you'd be able to share a few more details (and you did here - the 15 minutes number for example is jaw dropping... at best that's 10-12kWh, so maybe 35-40 miles of range added... definitely NOT what I would have expected).

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I think you two are arguing past each other. dirkhh's main point is that it does not make sense for a hotel to pick a DC charger over multiple L2s if the hotel's goal is mainly for the chargers to serve guests that stay there (as may be the case in hotels in lower traffic areas). dirkhh's assumptions are critical to his argument because he is not saying that *in all cases* it makes no sense for a hotel pick a DC charger over multiple L2s.

You show an example of a DC charger installed in a high traffic area that mainly serves people not using the hotel (rather than the guests). This would seem to be a special case that's different from what dirkhh is talking about. It shows if the hotel happens to be in a high traffic area, it may make sense to install a DC charger.

I think TonyWilliams last post made it clear that he is talking about high traffic areas. Average of 15 minute charge time. Definitely not what I'm talking about when talking about hotel chargers.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I think you two are arguing past each other. dirkhh's main point is that it does not make sense for a hotel to pick a DC charger over multiple L2s if the hotel's goal is mainly for the chargers to serve guests that stay there (as may be the case in hotels in lower traffic areas). dirkhh's assumptions are critical to his argument because he is not saying that *in all cases* it makes no sense for a hotel pick a DC charger over multiple L2s.

This. Tony's using a hotel parking lot as a site for a public charger (like Tesla does) and dirkhh is talking about providing charging for guests.

I do think that sometime people assume that hotels providing large number of L2s would be easy, when it really wouldn't. Only when there's a decent self-sustaining market in PEVs will the necessary smart group-charging solutions arrive on the market.

 

[Cottonwood]

But, you still get only 208 volts instead of the 240 volts you get at home. Yes, better than 30 amps at 208 volts, but still lower than home charging.

Not always...

The two 70-Amp, J1772 setups that I have helped get on the air at Incredible Pagosa Vacation Rentals in Pagosa Springs, Colorado and Wood's High Mountain Distillery in Salida, CO are both 240 Volts. It just depends on whether or not the business site is fed by split-phase 240 or three-phase 208.

It's also possible to use a Boost Transformer to raise the 208 to 240 to regain that 15% of charge rate.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Not always...

The two 70-Amp, J1772 setups that I have helped get on the air at Incredible Pagosa Vacation Rentals in Pagosa Springs, Colorado and Wood's High Mountain Distillery in Salida, CO are both 240 Volts. It just depends on whether or not the business site is fed by split-phase 240 or three-phase 208.

It's also possible to use a Boost Transformer to raise the 208 to 240 to regain that 15% of charge rate.

I carried a 40 volt boost transformer last year during the BC2BC-2013 rally.

 

[Blathering1]

Maintenance Charges & Telecom charges

Thanks, all good questions, but I thought that since Blathering1 is in the business of providing charging facilities to the public that perhaps he could elaborate from his point of view.

Perhaps Tony could also discuss how telecommunications charges effects the overall cost picture.

Larry

Much has been added to this thread in the last 24 hrs, however I wanted to address the telecom charges. The data volume is quite small, so a cellular wireless connection would carry minimal cost ($10-20 per month, several chargers could use one M2M Modem). With this you can do credit card swipe (point-of-sale), or Chargepoint, or another network.

The challenge we ran into is that Chargepoint inexplicably charges an annual fee that is much higher for L3 (or DC Fast) than for L2 chargers. Roughly $550 for the DC Fast Charge per year per 'pump', versus ~$200 for L2, and that does not include per transaction fees. They take an additional flat percentage of whatever you charge (and no additional amount if you charge nothing).

We listed only on Plugshare and are not using Chargepoint because of the high DC Fast fees are unnecessary since it is a free service.

Since we are not on Chargepoint, and do not swipe credit cards, we have no telecom charges. That said, we would like to offer online alerts for drivers to monitor their charging, and would happy eat telecom charges if we could accomplish this.

 

[rcc]

Tony, thanks for the info on your station usage. This is great data.

Personally, for S owners, I think the "stop, charge and eat" scenario makes sense but the Chademo charger is going to be slower. The supercharger will charge twice as fast at peak and as the battery fills up, the charging rates of the SC and Chademo will eventually equalize.

So I think the appeal of a Chademo charger vs. a nearby supercharger for roadtrip charging will be up to the people, their schedules that trip and what's around the stations. Good luck with yours!

I think Chademo destination charging business case is more problematic for the Model S though. And that's because I think destination charging works well if and only if the charging pattern fits with the destination travel pattern.

If I'm stuck at an office building (or tourist attraction ... think Disneyworld) all day, I don't care if there's a Chademo station 2 miles away with a restaurant next door. I'm not going to eat at the restaurant because I'm someplace else all day and probably have lunch and dinner plans. In order for the destination charging to fit my travel pattern well, I need the charging at the daytime parking place or the hotel (night-time parking place).

Put a Chademo charger at a place where I would naturally visit for an hour two and the story might be different. Malls, restaurants and movie theaters make sense for Model S's. I can see Walgreens making sense for LEAFs (<15 min charging). But as an S owner, how often do I drive to a different city and then spend a few hours at a mall or the movies? Almost zero. Once I get to where I'm going, I'm typically working, hanging out with friends/family, hitting a tourist attraction or doing something on some schedule, even if that schedule is "hang out all day at the beach". I'm not going to take extra time out to charge my car unless I absolutely have to.

A Chademo at a mall, theater or restaurant fits my travel pattern well at home. But if I'm driving an S at home, I almost never need to charge during the day because I charge every night at home.

So I think the business case for Chademo destination charging could work for LEAFs. Their range is so low, they probably need to charge anywhere they can. But for an S? I think there are some that will work but I think they're going to be fairly rare.

 

[TonyWilliams]

This. Tony's using a hotel parking lot as a site for a public charger (like Tesla does) and dirkhh is talking about providing charging for guests.

I do think that sometime people assume that hotels providing large number of L2s would be easy, when it really wouldn't. Only when there's a decent self-sustaining market in PEVs will the necessary smart group-charging solutions arrive on the market.

The DC chargers (whether from Tesla or anybody else) are paid for by the installer and generally the land / parking is offered for free / really cheap for a 10 year period.

The hotel L2 scenario that is paid for by the hotel takes up a WHOLE bunch more parking spots to get the same level of service. Plus, it really is tough to charge for L2, and the money is small (but not the telecommunications, network fees, credit cards fees, etc), and the electricity can be potentially expensive, particularly here in California.

So, if I'm a big hotel chain, what's the easy answer? Parking spots, particularly the handicap ones, is a big deal. Actually a deal breaker many times.

 

[djp]

The hotel L2 scenario that is paid for by the hotel takes up a WHOLE bunch more parking spots to get the same level of service.

As EVs become more popular we'll need a bank of charging spots at hotels to avoid contention. For the same price as one CHAdeMO station a hotel can install 10 80amp L2 stations, and serve ten times more customers with about four times the total charging capacity. Ideally these would be spaced with one station for every two spots to allow for shared spaces while reducing the risk of ICEing.

We have a parking garage in downtown Toronto with 7 L2 stations serving 14 spots - it's the only one that consistently has charging spots available.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The DC chargers (whether from Tesla or anybody else) are paid for by the installer and generally the land / parking is offered for free / really cheap for a 10 year period.

The hotel L2 scenario that is paid for by the hotel takes up a WHOLE bunch more parking spots to get the same level of service. Plus, it really is tough to charge for L2, and the money is small (but not the telecommunications, network fees, credit cards fees, etc), and the electricity can be potentially expensive, particularly here in California.

So, if I'm a big hotel chain, what's the easy answer? Parking spots, particularly the handicap ones, is a big deal. Actually a deal breaker many times.

Oh, I get that it should be easy to get them installed, but unless there's valet parking, shared DC (v multiple L2) works for everybody except people actually staying at the hotel. Guest parking is home away from home and just like parking at home. You arrive, go inside, sleep, leave. Plug and unplug fits easily with that. You don't want to go check whether the charger's free, move your car, plug-in, go back inside, wait, go back to your car and move it again. Especially if the weather sucks.

Now, if you're a Leaf driver who drives to a neighboring city, needs a top-up, QCs for 15 minutes and then leaves, that's a different use case and it works as long as volumes are low and you're not dealing with contention. Pricing can help with contention, which is why I'm not surprised the average charge is only 15 minutes, but still, it's an obvious problem.

Really, the only company that's thought ahead on contention is Tesla, which installs multiple charging stalls at a time and has an approach that targets the contention issue. All of these single-stall installations are gestures for early adopters.

 

[PhilBa]

It seems to me that the whole metered, authorized, networked L2 charger (or worse, FC) approach is too complicated and expensive for hotels. It requires ongoing maintenance. It's also confusing as there are a lot of moving parts in the decision process. It takes a lot of educating the hotel owners. Pushing that approach is not helping to advance the cause of destination charging. If I was a hotel owner, I'd probably punt.

I think the right alternative is simply a bank of 240VAC and/or 120VAC outlets. If someone is road tripping in an EV, they are very likely to carry adapters/chargers. It's a simple approach and the owners understand dealing with electricians. This approach also allows the hotel to circumvent any regulations dedicating stalls to charging only. Even in California, the cost of electricity is not going to be that much relative to other perks they give out and if it's really an issue they can charge a fee - a lot of hotels charge for parking anyway so it's not like it's a new thing.

 

[dsm363]

The DC chargers (whether from Tesla or anybody else) are paid for by the installer and generally the land / parking is offered for free / really cheap for a 10 year period.

The hotel L2 scenario that is paid for by the hotel takes up a WHOLE bunch more parking spots to get the same level of service. Plus, it really is tough to charge for L2, and the money is small (but not the telecommunications, network fees, credit cards fees, etc), and the electricity can be potentially expensive, particularly here in California.

So, if I'm a big hotel chain, what's the easy answer? Parking spots, particularly the handicap ones, is a big deal. Actually a deal breaker many times.

Easy. You force anyone wanting to use the L2 chargers to pay extra for valet. The valets can then move the cars when charging done. The hotel earns extra revenue from people that would normally have self parked. In some cities the difference is $10+/day.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Actually I don't think the parking thing is that big a deal for L2 (in the case of 10 chargers). The spots can be shared parking (so ICE cars can use it and no space is "lost" in terms of parking), but when you have 10, the probability all are filled is a lot lower. This is different than the (single) DC charger, which MUST be a dedicated spot.

I like the idea mentioned Phil even more to lower the costs and allow even more spots (although ensuring the sockets are only usable by guests is still an issue).