Business case for CHAdeMO stations

[dirkhh]

I'm obviously the problem here. I will delete all posts in the thread referring to any "alleged" CHAdeMO that I "claim" information about (that's obviously made up)

Can you point me to the post where I (or others) have called this an "alleged" charger or where we question that you have information about this or implied that you made any of this up?
I think that we tried to call you out on the fact that while you claim that your data refutes statements made by myself and others (CHAdeMO chargers make less sense than half a dozen L2 chargers for a hotel), they don't actually apply to those statements. I.e., I disagreed with you that the data that you posses applies to the question that you believe it applies to.
I never doubted that you had the data, I never doubted that you had 2500 paid charge events, etc.
Quite the contrary, I asked you to take my completely made up numbers (see, mine were indeed made up and not based on data, and I said so), and fill in data from your actual experience to make this more informative.

So I think you are totally misreading what is happening here. I would love to gain inside from your valuable experience. I may not agree with the conclusions that you have drawn, but I believe I have done nothing but accepted that you have more data and tried to get you to share more of it with us so we can have a more educated discussion.

Moderator, if you'd be so kind to also edit out any my quotes from others posts.

Thanks.

:-(
I don't think that's the way to improve the information available on successful CHAdeMO charger installations.

 

[bonnie]

Moderator, if you'd be so kind to also edit out any my quotes from others posts.

Thanks.

We don't do that, unless a TOS has been violated. It disrupts the flow of conversation and the thread. We also discourage deleting posts for that same reason.

 

[Larry Chanin]

The benefit is from providing a service to the EV community, offering spare PV electrons, and benefiting from local PR.

Thanks for contributing to this discussion and for you support of the EV community. Hopefully when Tesla releases the CHAdeMO adapter some of your costs will be recovered.

In addition to demand charges, can you discuss how telecommunications charges, if you have any, effects the cost equation? I have been told that for Level 2 charging that telecommunication charges can actually exceed the cost of electricity. So this acts as a disincentive to try to offset costs by charging a fee since new telecommunications costs are incurred.

Larry

 

[dirkhh]

Thanks for contributing to this discussion and for you support of the EV community. Hopefully when Tesla releases the CHAdeMO adapter some of your costs will be recovered.

Given that Blathering1 apparently does not charge EV owners to charge at this station, I don't see how that would work.

In addition to demand charges, can you discuss how telecommunications charges, if you have any, effects the cost equation? I have been told that for Level 2 charging that telecommunication charges can actually exceed the cost of electricity. So this acts as a disincentive to trying to offset costs by charging a fee since new telecommunications costs are incurred.

I'm curious about this one - how would telecommunications charges add up? I guess this depends on how the charger is connected to the network? Normally I'd assume there is one connection from the charger to the card provider when the user authorizes their card and another one after the charge completed to finalize the bill. So again, depending on how the charger connects to the network, that's two relatively simple and short data transmission session. Or are you talking about the infamous "communications charges" by card processing providers?

 

[Larry Chanin]

Given that Blathering1 apparently does not charge EV owners to charge at this station, I don't see how that would work.

I'm curious about this one - how would telecommunications charges add up? I guess this depends on how the charger is connected to the network? Normally I'd assume there is one connection from the charger to the card provider when the user authorizes their card and another one after the charge completed to finalize the bill. So again, depending on how the charger connects to the network, that's two relatively simple and short data transmission session. Or are you talking about the infamous "communications charges" by card processing providers?

Thanks, all good questions, but I thought that since Blathering1 is in the business of providing charging facilities to the public that perhaps he could elaborate from his point of view.

Perhaps Tony could also discuss how telecommunications charges effects the overall cost picture.

Larry

 

[rcc]

I think the business cases for Chademo charging for short-range EVs and Telsa EVs is different.

I've owned the S for over 1.5 years and have done a >1000 mile road trip with it. I won't buy the Chademo adapter unless I see myself travelling into areas where L2 destination charging (either hotels or day charging) is very spotty and Chademo stations are the primary realistic source of recharges. Right now, that seems to be certain areas of the Pacific Northwest like the Oregon coast and I'm hopeful that enough hotels will get L2 charging to fix this. LA can be painful but is workable with Hawthorne and the little amount of L2 charging available and will get better as more hotels and big parking garages get L2 charging.

If I owned a LEAF, on the other hand and a Chademo charger made an appealing trip possible (or a lot less stressful), I'd use it a lot. A San Juan Capistrano Chademo, located right between LA and San Diego seems to fit that bill. Location location location.

But the S is a totally different story. The range on the S is so long that you can afford to skip charging opportunities if you know that you'll be able to charge overnight at an L2 charger. With the S, if you know you can recharge overnight at your destination and you're travelling between LA and San Diego, you can just blow by the SJC Supercharger.

The flip side of that is when an S charges at an L2, it needs to sit there for hours. If I charge for an hour at an L2 charger, I get back about 25 miles of range. That 1/3 of the total range of a LEAF. For the S, it's about 10%. On most days, that's totally irrelevant. Heck, on most days, I charge to only 80% and still have plenty of range left over.

L2 charging for the S really fits a "leave the car overnight or for a full day" model. This happens to line up real well with "check in to a hotel and charge all night" or "hit the amusement park/beach/office at the beginning of day and charge all day".

So for the S, I think more L2 chargers makes more sense than fewer Chademo.

I with Tony luck with all the LEAFs and other short-range Chademo-enabled EVs. But even if the adapter shows up, I doubt that recharges from S's will add much revenue.

 

[joer00]

I think the business cases for Chademo charging for short-range EVs and Telsa EVs is different.

I've owned the S for over 1.5 years and have done a >1000 mile road trip with it. I won't buy the Chademo adapter unless I see myself travelling into areas where L2 destination charging (either hotels or day charging) is very spotty and Chademo stations are the primary realistic source of recharges. Right now, that seems to be certain areas of the Pacific Northwest like the Oregon coast and I'm hopeful that enough hotels will get L2 charging to fix this. LA can be painful but is workable with Hawthorne and the little amount of L2 charging available and will get better as more hotels and big parking garages get L2 charging.

If I owned a LEAF, on the other hand and a Chademo charger made an appealing trip possible (or a lot less stressful), I'd use it a lot. A San Juan Capistrano Chademo, located right between LA and San Diego seems to fit that bill. Location location location.

But the S is a totally different story. The range on the S is so long that you can afford to skip charging opportunities if you know that you'll be able to charge overnight at an L2 charger. With the S, if you know you can recharge overnight at your destination and you're travelling between LA and San Diego, you can just blow by the SJC Supercharger.

The flip side of that is when an S charges at an L2, it needs to sit there for hours. If I charge for an hour at an L2 charger, I get back about 25 miles of range. That 1/3 of the total range of a LEAF. For the S, it's about 10%. On most days, that's totally irrelevant. Heck, on most days, I charge to only 80% and still have plenty of range left over.

L2 charging for the S really fits a "leave the car overnight or for a full day" model. This happens to line up real well with "check in to a hotel and charge all night" or "hit the amusement park/beach/office at the beginning of day and charge all day".

So for the S, I think more L2 chargers makes more sense than fewer Chademo.

I with Tony luck with all the LEAFs and other short-range Chademo-enabled EVs. But even if the adapter shows up, I doubt that recharges from S's will add much revenue.

I just posted my thoughts in the Chademo adapter thread. I think you are totally wrong. L2's are useless until you charge overnight. Please show me the L2 adapter which gives you 25 miles/hour. I think I used close to 100 L2's so far and I would say at least 75 % of them are just 200 Volt and about 18 miles/hour. Let's all be honest, CHARGE WAITING SUCKS ! Chademo is not as good as the SC, but it is awesome ! Instead of fighting for a slot at that 1 hotel which has a charger at my destination, I can just have lunch and my car is full (assuming it was just 50 % empty).

I agree however that there is no business model for making money with Chademo, as there is simply no business model at all to make money with charging ! Tesla got that right, it's the car manufactures (or government) who need to build up a network of FAST charging. And let's PRAISE those people who do it anyway, putting Chademos at their hotels or shops ! You all rock and help the electric car revolution moving. A L2 at Wallgreens or a bank is just money completely thrown away !

 

[dirkhh]

I just posted my thoughts in the Chademo adapter thread. I think you are totally wrong. L2's are useless until you charge overnight. [...] Let's all be honest, CHARGE WAITING SUCKS !

I think you'll find that rcc and I and others pretty much agree. Not sure why you say rcc is totally wrong...

His point is (and I agree 100%) that if you have a Model S in most cases you can drive all day at your destination (just like you drive all day at home), as long as there is an L2 charger at your hotel where you can charge overnight. So basically in a Model S a L2 overnight charge is the default and the car is designed to work very well with just that available unless you do long distance travel (where the superchargers come in).

And my point has been all along that for hotels L2 chargers make more sense because they charge a Model S overnight, you can install many more of them at the same cost and charge many cars in parallel instead of having a fast CHAdeMO charger where the Model S charges in a couple of hours and if you have six guests with a Model S you need to have someone swap cars during the night.

Chademo is not as good as the SC, but it is awesome ! Instead of fighting for a slot at that 1 hotel which has a charger at my destination, I can just have lunch and my car is full (assuming it was just 50 % empty).

Right. Having CHAdeMO chargers at spots where people typically spend an our or two (restaurants, malls, etc) makes perfect sense and nicely complements L2 chargers at hotels.

 

[joer00]

I think you'll find that rcc and I and others pretty much agree. Not sure why you say rcc is totally wrong...

.

Well, not totally wrong at the whole post. I did read the post as "don't put any Chademo's in, increase the numbers of L2's". This I think it is wrong. A MS does not need (many) HOURS at a Chademo. In the absolute worst case it is 2 hours, it most cases it will be one. What nobody so far is taken into account are "day trips". I give you a typical example of what happened so often to me. 85 Kw car charged at 90 %, I switch the AC on and we have some breakfast in town. W are already down to 200 miles ! Now we decide to got o our favorite restaurant in Venice, 85 miles away. We drive at 80 and have 10 miles headwind (not uncommon)and use 400 wh/mile. We arrive with about 90 miles, we will not make it home ! Local L2 charger is just 200 volt, we get about 18 miles per hour ! And worse, charger is broken, no what ?? We have to make it back via Sarasota and oh bad luck, the wind just turned. Now we have to BEAT THREE hours time to make it home ! And this in a 85 !

Of course you can now say "with 10 miles headwind you should have driven 50 mph". And thats the mistake. I do NOT WANT to drive like a grandfather and be constrained only because I drive an electric car. If there would be a CHADEMO in Venice, we would be 100 % charger during lunch and no worries !

So my point is, L2 at hotels:yes makes big sense. Any other L2's remove them and replace it by Chademo.

 

[Lloyd]

Don't forget that the HPWC is L2 charging, 80 amps and ~60 MPH at ideal voltage! We can get close to 20 Kw/hr, with this and a lot less cost, $$, and size than a Chademo station!

 

[Paul Carter]

Greenlots just sent an email to its users:

Dear Greenlots user,

Beginning July 21, 2014 some DC Fast Charging (DCFC) stations in British Columbia, Canada will begin a pilot-pricing program. After consultation, the DCFC hosts and EV drivers have agreed that a fair rate of charge will be $0.35/kWh. This rate is well below the equivalent cost with gas (assuming $1.40/litre)....

...

More information can be found at Plug In BC.

...

Adding a small fee for DC fast charging ensures:

• DCFC stations are well utilized (drivers will have an incentive to unplug when they have met their charging needs);
• Charging data is collected for analysis and incorporated into future planning decisions;
• DCFC users are knowledgeable about the decreasing charge rate of batteries. This means drivers won’t stay plugged into a fast charge station long after the “fast” part of the charge has finished; and
• A sustainable business model for current & future DCFC site hosts.

Bolding added by me.

So Revenue would be max $21 to $30 (60 vs 85 kWh). That's over 300% markup on the cost of BC electricity.

The infrastructure was paid by government grants and maintained by the DCFC hosts (some are municipalities) as part of the install agreement.

Will be interesting if this model works.

 

[TexasEV]

Joer00, Why do you think the Chademo charging station will be broken less often than a level 2?
Perhaps you aren't familiar with high amp level 2 charging if there aren't any in your area. These put out 40-80A (28 miles/hr if single charger at 40A up to 56 miles/hr if dual chargers and 80A) at relatively low cost, about $2000 for the Clipper Creek models. Chademo costs at least 10x that with its high infrastructure cost.
By the way if you're going on a day trip, don't start at just 90% and then complain about how long it takes to charge during the day.

 

[dsm363]

I would say replace them with the DC system that ends up dominating. If that is CHAdeMO, then fine. Spending a lot more money to deploy CHAdeMO in the US when Superchargers may take over doesn't make a lot of sense. We are years from that though. If BMW and Nissan do come to an agreement with Tesla things will get much simpler.

 

[jerry33]

I give you a typical example of what happened so often to me. 85 Kw car charged at 90 %, I switch the AC on and we have some breakfast in town. W are already down to 200 miles ! Now we decide to got o our favorite restaurant in Venice, 85 miles away. We drive at 80 and have 10 miles headwind (not uncommon)and use 400 wh/mile. .

Do a range charge on the days when you do this. There really is no problem with a range charge if you don't let it sit at 100%.

 

[joer00]

Joer00, Why do you think the Chademo charging station will be broken less often than a level 2?
Perhaps you aren't familiar with high amp level 2 charging if there aren't any in your area. These put out 40-80A (28 miles/hr if single charger at 40A up to 56 miles/hr if dual chargers and 80A) at relatively low cost, about $2000 for the Clipper Creek models. Chademo costs at least 10x that with its high infrastructure cost.

I never said that Chademo will be less broken than L2, don't put wrong words in my mouth ! And show me on an US map the HIGH AMP L2 chargers ! I bet they are less than Chademos. The ONLY one we have in our 2 million metropolitan area is at one HWPC at the Tesla SC operating at 200 volts so giving about 48 mile per hour, about 1/3 what you get from a Chademo. In Orlando (MAJOR destination) I found two, one operates at 200 volts and 80 amp, the other (Ritz Carlton, such a "poor" hotel that they can't afford a 100 amp line) operates at 48 amps and 200 volt which gave us about 36 miles per hour. I was all in for the high amp L2 chargers, UNTIL your experience something better.
Also from my experience 90% of the L2 chargers where either vacant or ICE'd. It's just another proof that most of them are quite useless, people just do not use them because the slowness is annoying.

By the way if you're going on a day trip, don't start at just 90% and then complain about how long it takes to charge during the day.

You did not get my point. Cars are all about freedom and being spontaneous. I mentioned in my prior post that it is all about not being constrained only because you drive electric. I am a Tesla enthusiast as most of us here, but I am also realistic. The charging situation ANNOYS me. Chademo is the only viable short term solution to this problem until we have a global DC standard. You might just not drive as much as I do and use the car different. I have 34k miles after 1 year and 4 month ownership and to many annoying charging situations. L2 chargers will not make the EV become mainstream.

 

[pairtrader]

Paul, I got that email as well and was surprised by the $0.35/kWh rate.

I'm not sure who they surveyed, but Tesla owners seem to be hoping for something different. SunCountry Level 3 Chargers - Input please

Also, unless I'm missing something, what is the financial incentive to unplug when the charge is complete? Why can someone who needs a 20 minute charge not go for lunch for 90 minutes while plugged in? There needs to be a fee to stay connected, otherwise we will see more people like our Smart Car nemesis in Yaletown. :smile:

I don't buy this: "DCFC users are knowledgeable about the decreasing charge rate of batteries. This means drivers won’t stay plugged into a fast charge station long after the “fast” part of the charge has finished"

Early adopters and EV enthusiasts will generally be thoughtful and move their vehicle once fully charged. These were likely the people surveyed. That courtesy will decline rapidly with wider adoption, so the incentives need to address that reality, especially at these single charger locations.

 

[joer00]

Paul, I got that email as well and was surprised by the $0.35/kWh rate.

I'm not sure who they surveyed, but Tesla owners seem to be hoping for something different. SunCountry Level 3 Chargers - Input please

Also, unless I'm missing something, what is the financial incentive to unplug when the charge is complete? Why can someone who needs a 20 minute charge not go for lunch for 90 minutes while plugged in? There needs to be a fee to stay connected, otherwise we will see more people like our Smart Car nemesis in Yaletown. :smile:

I don't buy this: "DCFC users are knowledgeable about the decreasing charge rate of batteries. This means drivers won’t stay plugged into a fast charge station long after the “fast” part of the charge has finished"

Early adopters and EV enthusiasts will generally be thoughtful and move their vehicle once fully charged. These were likely the people surveyed. That courtesy will decline rapidly with wider adoption, so the incentives need to address that reality, especially at these single charger locations.

Rate should always by per time and even better non linear. First 30 min 5$, next 30 10 $ , thereafter 30$ or so. With fast chargers it is VERY important that they are not blocked ! I remember a post where someone said that there was a line at a SC only because people waited forever to top of the last 5 %.

 

[TexasEV]

I never said that Chademo will be less broken than L2, don't put wrong words in my mouth !

When you said "Local L2 charger is just 200 volt, we get about 18 miles per hour ! And worse, charger is broken, no what ??" in a post about why level 2s should be replaced with Chademo, it implies that Chademo wouldn't have been broken. Otherwise how was the remark relevant?

- - - Updated - - -

And show me on an US map the HIGH AMP L2 chargers ! I bet they are less than Chademos.

True, they're uncommon now, but we should push for them to become the standard for new level 2 installations now that there are cars (Tesla) that can take advantage of them, and at a fraction of the cost of Chademo. How many exist currently is not relevant to the discussion of what should be installed now, based on usability and cost considerations. Destinations where people park for several hours can install high amp level 2 charging that gives 28 miles range/hr or more for less than one-tenth the cost of installing a Chademo, and for no more than it costs to install 30A level 2's which I agree are almost useless except at hotels. But most places who would consider installing EV charging don't know about high amp level 2, they just know ChargePoint and Blink which are overpriced and underpowered. That doesn't make 40-80A stations less useful, they just need to be marketed better.

- - - Updated - - -

You did not get my point. Cars are all about freedom and being spontaneous. I mentioned in my prior post that it is all about not being constrained only because you drive electric.

I understand about being spontaneous, but how long would it have taken you to charge from 90% to 100% before you left home? An hour?

 

[Lloyd]

And show me on an US map the HIGH AMP L2 chargers ! I bet they are less than Chademos.

Well if you go to plugshare, and go to more options on the filter, you can filter to just HPWC's for Tesla. It shows about 2 to 3X the number of Chademo stations. Now if you add the high amp J1772 stations it would be about 4 X, You asked......

 

[dirkhh]

Rate should always by per time and even better non linear. First 30 min 5$, next 30 10 $ , thereafter 30$ or so. With fast chargers it is VERY important that they are not blocked ! I remember a post where someone said that there was a line at a SC only because people waited forever to top of the last 5 %.

Yes - today I had an interesting chat with the manager of the store where one of the (somewhat) local CHAdeMO stations is located. He is currently set up through Blink but is planning not to renew his contract with them and instead bill directly to credit card (this is next to his store, so the credit card fees will be fairly moderate).
He was talking about a scheme along these lines (I may not have all the details right, but my memory for numbers is usually fairly good):
first 30 minutes $2.50 (this is a 50kW charger and this pretty much covers the cost of electricity after he subtracts the CC fees)
after this in 15 minute increments: $2.50, $2.50, $5, $5, $5, $5, $10, $10, $10, $10 after this (we're now 3h and $67.50 into this) you get towed.
You can drop the keys at the store and he'll have someone move your car after 2h (there is a movie theater and more restaurants nearby).
I like that he doesn't charge AT ALL by electricity. It's simply about time.
A quick recharge for a near empty Leaf that will get them to 70-75% for $2.50.
A 100% Leaf charge for $7.50. In the same time a Tesla Model 85 should be more than half charged.
If you want to stay longer, it gets expensive. $20 for the second hour(which get's your Tesla nearly to 100%) and an additional $40 if you're an ass and park longer.
The funniest part is the towing part - one of the local towing businesses is in the same little strip mall section - a few doors down from the charger. So this is not an empty threat, he really is able to have you towed after 3h.

As I mentioned, he hasn't done this, yet, he is talking to customers about it. One interesting thing when I came in and talked to the manager was that apparently a few other Tesla owners had talked to him about the charger before, even though no one here has seen a CHAdeMO adapter, yet.
According to the gentleman I talked to, no one has said "oh I won't charge here anymore" when he explained the model to them. We'll see what happens. But maybe he's onto a business model that might work. All depends on how many people charge for more than 30 minutes, I guess

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Well if you go to plugshare, and go to more options on the filter, you can filter to just HPWC's for Tesla. It shows about 2 to 3X the number of Chademo stations. Now if you add the high amp J1772 stations it would be about 4 X, You asked......

In all fairness, I believe that there are many more supercharging enabled Model S (which could use a CHAdeMO adapter) than there are dual charger Model S (I certainly fall into that category).