7 Major Automakers Band Together to build their own Network.

Interesting.

BMW, Hyundai, Mercedes, KIA, GM*, Honda and Stellantis will be building their own charging network (Non-Tesla branded), but will be using NACS, along side CCS which I think they'll eventually phase out?

If so this may indirectly confirm that the Big 7 will be adopting the NACS? (*GM already did as we know), but instead of using Tesla SCs they'll be just building their own "stations" which is smart from a business perspective so good on them. They obviously know that there is a huge piece of the pie up for grabs in an untapped free market.

It keeps Tesla from monopolizing (giving consumers more options), which is a positive thing. After all if it's NACS that's a win win.

The Big 7 plan to build 30,000 charging stations with the focus of making them more like a gas stations with the option to purchase food and snacks etc. Going into it with this intent out of the gate is much better than what Tesla did in just putting up chargers where they could without these amenities.

The new network from the Big 7 can charge all EVs so essentially this isn't necessary a bad thing for Tesla owners.

What do you guys think about this? I was curious why things were so quiet with the Big 7, while Ford and some others were quick to throw in the white flag submitting to the Tesla throne. I get it now...

Simply put, if Tesla was the Chevron, we'll now be getting a Shell, all of which we can utilize so it's just another option (network) to accommodate the future of EVs, except now it'll come with the convenience of having restrooms, food, snacks, and drinks like the old dyno juice stations.

 

[father_of_6]

Newsome claims Tesla got over 3B just from california state subsidies:

Gov. Newsom Says California Subsidies Powered Tesla’s Success

Leaders of the Golden State have long sought credit for the success of the world's largest electric-car manufacturer, and now Newsom is suggesting the state's incentives are responsible for the emergence of Tesla.

www.govtech.com

This still just feels like a very wrong way to describe this. Those subsidies went to the consumers. They could have just as easily bought Chevy Bolts, or gas guzzlers. Saying "Tesla got $3B in subsidies" implies that people would not have bought those vehicles from Tesla if the state rebates weren't available. No one can know that.

I fully reject that Tesla received those subsidies. *Consumers* received those subsidies. The government wanted to incentivize consumers to buy EVs, so it did. Tesla only received those sales because it had the best vehicle in town. Those same rebates could have been used to buy any other EV.

 

[gt2690b]

This still just feels like a very wrong way to describe this. Those subsidies went to the consumers. They could have just as easily bought Chevy Bolts, or gas guzzlers. Saying "Tesla got $3B in subsidies" implies that people would not have bought those vehicles from Tesla if the state rebates weren't available. No one can know that.

I fully reject that Tesla received those subsidies. *Consumers* received those subsidies. The government wanted to incentivize consumers to buy EVs, so it did. Tesla only received those sales because it had the best vehicle in town. Those same rebates could have been used to buy any other EV.

The california article was not even talking about consumer rebates he was mostly talking about ZEV credits that go to Tesla estimated at 2.48B

Its hard to claim if hertz didnt buy 100k Teslas they would have just sold them to the next 100k people.. the fact is consumer rebates impact demand which impact prices and margin

does anyone else want to make a wild ass guess as to the total subsidies to date tesla has received? i stand by my original 7.5B estimate but what say you?

1M? 5M? 1B? 5B? 10B? My whole point was that its way more than 0 and probably not even an order of magnitude away from some legacy car makers (especially per vehicle sold)

Tesla will probably get 2B or more from the charger deal before its all said and done the big 7 here are just starting to try and chip away at it

 

[father_of_6]

The california article was not even talking about consumer rebates he was mostly talking about ZEV credits that go to Tesla estimated at 2.48B

Ahh... the carbon credits? Yeah, I think we'll always disagree on these. It's not even that I disagree with you, it's that the connotation of "subsidy" rubs me the wrong way when applied to Tesla in these cases. The money from carbon credits didn't come from the government anyways... it came from polluting companies.

 

[gt2690b]

Ahh... the carbon credits? Yeah, I think we'll always disagree on these. It's not even that I disagree with you, it's that the connotation of "subsidy" rubs me the wrong way when applied to Tesla in these cases. The money from carbon credits didn't come from the government anyways... it came from polluting companies.

i dont even know what they are.. i was just quoting the article

 

[father_of_6]

Polluting companies were required to buy carbon offset credits from "clean" companies like Tesla. It's a way to shift dollars from dirty companies to clean ones, and incentivize the polluters to clean up their act.

Technically, I guess those are subsidies too. I think where I get caught up on the whole conversation is that Tesla *earned* those carbon credits, just like it *earned* those vehicles sales (tax credits or not). This isn't like petroleum subsidies or corn subsidies where money is just handed over to the producers.

 

[Russell]

i dont even know what they are.. i was just quoting the article

Do your Due Diligence.

Polluting companies were required to buy carbon offset credits from "clean" companies like Tesla. It's a way to shift dollars from dirty companies to clean ones, and incentivize the polluters to clean up their act.

Technically, I guess those are subsidies too. I think where I get caught up on the whole conversation is that Tesla *earned* those carbon credits, just like it *earned* those vehicles sales (tax credits or not). This isn't like petroleum subsidies or corn subsidies where money is just handed over to the producers.

Automobile manufacturers were not required to buy (Zero-Emission Vehicle) credits. They earned them by selling clean vehicles.

They had to buy credits if they did not sell enough clean vehicles in proportion to their sales of ICE vehicles.
They could buy the credits from any automobile manufacturer that was willing to sell them and the price was negotiable.

Zero-Emission Vehicle Program | California Air Resources Board

To meet California's health-based air quality standards and greenhouse gas emission reduction goals, the cars we drive and the fuel we use must get as close as possible to zero emission. The Zero-Emission Vehicle (ZEV) program is part of CARB's Advanced Clean Cars package of coordinated...

ww2.arb.ca.gov

 

[gt2690b]

Do your Due Diligence.



....

Ok so what's your due diligence estimate of subsidies that Tesla has received?

 

[tivoboy]

Ok so what's your due diligence estimate of subsidies that Tesla has received?

It we’re talking ZEV credits overall, all time?… someone I’m sure has put this number together since its REPORTED in every quarterly report, but I’d put a swag at somewhere between 8-13B over time.. it produced MOST of Teslas overall NET quarterly positive profit up till about late 2020.

 

[Russell]

Ok so what's your due diligence estimate of subsidies that Tesla has received?

I don't care to know the estimate of "subsidies" Tesla has received.

I do care about people disseminating wrong, misleading information.

 

[FireFighterHil]

Not a great idea to buy existing gas stations to replace with electric “pumps”. Its sitting on a huge environmental liability if the tanks or plumbing ever had a leak (or will in the future if not removed).

If a gas station is shut down and not reopened within a certain period they are required by the EPA to remove the tanks. The same goes if the gas station is sold and will be repurposed and no longer be a gas station.

 

[gt2690b]

I don't care to know the estimate of "subsidies" Tesla has received.

I do care about people disseminating wrong, misleading information.

You only care about subsidies other car makers get but not Tesla?

I also care about false information which is why when people say Tesla doesn't get any government funding I feel the need to speak up

 

[Darmie]

Don’t confuse LOCATIONS with CHARGING PORTS..Tesla has arguably about 18,000 charging ports in USA. I think the gov’t wants to build about 30,000 ADDITIONAL CHARGING PORTS across most highway and high traffic routes.

As a comparison, there are ~ 100,000 gas stations (some convenience stations and some just gas, so these numbers can move around ~ 20%) which probably have on average FOUR nozzles. I don’t think in any way the objective is to replicate that level of penetration and it shouldn’t be.

but, 30,000 DCFC charging PORTS across the USA would go a long way in enabling more EV adoption, usage, comfort, CONFIDENCE in the average NA buyer/owner.

I think there may be well over 100,000 charge stations that would far exceed gas stations if we were to count dealership & home charging.


I personally think there's a great start on EV charging.

Tesla

supercharge.info

Zoomable Tesla supercharger map with adjustable range indicator.

supercharge.info

Non Tesla

fastcharger.info

Zoomable DC Fastcharger map with adjustable range indicator.

fastcharger.info

Tesla is going to continue building out their chargers along with EA. Why do 7 auto companies feel compelled to just do their own thing? Maybe probably for more headlines than anything.

And let's not forget plug share that list all the AC public charging and destination charging. Volta even has many DC fast charging locations at malls and shopping centers.

 

[zroger73]

I think there may be well over 100,000 charge stations that would far exceed gas stations if we were to count dealership & home charging.


I personally think there's a great start on EV charging.

Two of the three car dealers near me that have public EV charging stations have defective equipment that doesn't work. I assume when the charging equipment broke, they started charging what few EVs they sell from a wall outlet or off-site...or just let the customers fend for themselves.

As I posted previously, the only fast charger within a 43-mile radius is broken as well - and, we're talking about a population of over 540,000 people within that radius.

I very rarely see a gas pump that is out of service and when I do, there's usually one or more additional stations within visual range.

EVs are great for people who can charge at home. The elephant in the room is the cost of public charging. Anyone who relies on public charging because they can't charge at home or they regularly travel would be better off with a gasoline-powered vehicle.

And let's not forget plug share that list all the AC public charging and destination charging.

There are a few NEMA 14-50 receptacles for EV charging around town, but realistically, they give about 15 miles of real-world range per hour if you're sitting in the vehicle with the A/C on or 20 miles if you turn it off. At best, you'll recover some of the range you used to drive to the charging location while you're there. I doubt many people will sit there* for 2-3 hours recharging from a day's worth of driving or 8-10 hours to get a full charge.

*Lately, I've been charging at a local park. I head there after work and sit in the car for a couple of hours napping, playing solitaire or mahjong, or watching Netflix until it cools off enough to not suffer from a heat stroke while I get some exercise on the trail. I've never seen another EV charging there.

There is one location in town - a hotel - that has Destination Chargers. There are four of them and they share a 12 kW capacity so each vehicle charges at 3 kW. If you're lucky, you'll get enough charge overnight to get you to the nearest Supercharger 43 miles away.

 

[gt2690b]

Two of the three car dealers near me that have public EV charging stations have defective equipment that doesn't work. I assume when the charging equipment broke, they started charging what few EVs they sell from a wall outlet or off-site...or just let the customers fend for themselves.

As I posted previously, the only fast charger within a 43-mile radius is broken as well - and, we're talking about a population of over 540,000 people within that radius.

I very rarely see a gas pump that is out of service and when I do, there's usually one or more additional stations within visual range.

EVs are great for people who can charge at home. The elephant in the room is the cost of public charging. Anyone who relies on public charging because they can't charge at home or they regularly travel would be better off with a gasoline-powered vehicle.



There are a few NEMA 14-50 receptacles for EV charging around town, but realistically, they give about 15 miles of real-world range per hour if you're sitting in the vehicle with the A/C on or 20 miles if you turn it off. At best, you'll recover some of the range you used to drive to the charging location while you're there. I doubt many people will sit there* for 2-3 hours recharging from a day's worth of driving or 8-10 hours to get a full charge.

*Lately, I've been charging at a local park. I head there after work and sit in the car for a couple of hours napping, playing solitaire or mahjong, or watching Netflix until it cools off enough to not suffer from a heat stroke while I get some exercise on the trail. I've never seen another EV charging there.

There is one location in town - a hotel - that has Destination Chargers. There are four of them and they share a 12 kW capacity so each vehicle charges at 3 kW. If you're lucky, you'll get enough charge overnight to get you to the nearest Supercharger 43 miles away.

View attachment 961614

Yes the next major hurdle to attack IMO is apartments and condos ... things like street light charging stations and parking deck 240V installations would be a game changer.. u cant rely on DCFC IMO for a daily solution to charging.. its too expensive and inconvenient

maybe more of something like this:

EV charging stations from street side power poles

Local street side power poles will be turned into EV charging stations in front of the meter as a controllable resource for grid operators.

www.smart-energy.com

On-street EV charging with Trojan Energy - Trojan Energy

trojan.energy

 

[henderrj]

Yes the next major hurdle to attack IMO is apartments and condos ... things like street light charging stations and parking deck 240V installations would be a game changer.. u cant rely on DCFC IMO for a daily solution to charging.. its too expensive and inconvenient

maybe more of something like this:

EV charging stations from street side power poles

Local street side power poles will be turned into EV charging stations in front of the meter as a controllable resource for grid operators.

www.smart-energy.com

On-street EV charging with Trojan Energy - Trojan Energy

trojan.energy

Most people do have a job. The opportunity to charge there is going to become more common as well. It might end up being a perk, or something you have to pay a little bit for, but more than sufficient for all the charging anyone would need for local use.

As to the idea that people who travel should use a gas car, that's ridiculous from my standpoint. We've been driving Teslas for 7 years on Long trips. Talking four and 6,000 miles at a time. We put over 200,000 miles on our s, and are racking them up on our x right now. It's much better, and less expensive, to drive an electric car. And we have found that every hotel on this latest trip, and most of them before that, have Tesla or other destination chargers, which gives you a full "tank" in the morning. Very convenient!

 

[MP3Mike]

Tesla is going to continue building out their chargers along with EA. Why do 7 auto companies feel compelled to just do their own thing? Maybe probably for more headlines than anything.

Or they want to be able to get some of the profit from selling energy. (Why sell just the razor handle and let someone else make money on selling the blades for the life of the handle, if you can sell them yourself and earn that profit?)

 

[gt2690b]

Most people do have a job. The opportunity to charge there is going to become more common as well. It might end up being a perk, or something you have to pay a little bit for, but more than sufficient for all the charging anyone would need for local use.

As to the idea that people who travel should use a gas car, that's ridiculous from my standpoint. We've been driving Teslas for 7 years on Long trips. Talking four and 6,000 miles at a time. We put over 200,000 miles on our s, and are racking them up on our x right now. It's much better, and less expensive, to drive an electric car. And we have found that every hotel on this latest trip, and most of them before that, have Tesla or other destination chargers, which gives you a full "tank" in the morning. Very convenient!

i was not insinuating you should use gas.. just that relying on DCFC for daily charging would be a royal PITA... i agree they are great for road trips and so is destination charging!

 

[zroger73]

As to the idea that people who travel should use a gas car, that's ridiculous from my standpoint. We've been driving Teslas for 7 years on Long trips. Talking four and 6,000 miles at a time. We put over 200,000 miles on our s, and are racking them up on our x right now. It's much better, and less expensive, to drive an electric car.

Every source I can find says that Superchargers cost 25-50¢/kWh. The three closest Superchargers to me in Lindale, TX; Nacogdoches, TX;, and Shreveport, LA cost 37¢/kWh which seems about average.

I have put 1,604 kWh into my Model Y over 5,177 miles. At 37¢/kWh, that's $593 or 11.4¢/mile.

11.4¢/mile is the equivalent of 30.7 MPG at $3.50/gallon costs! There are plenty of gas-powered vehicles that are more economical and cost half as much as a Model Y.

I love my Model Y and have no plans to ever buy another gasoline-powered vehicle for myself, but they are NOT economical for a minority of use cases once you actually do the math. I bought an EV for several reasons, but saving money or the environment were not among those reasons.

 

[Russell]

You only care about subsidies other car makers get but not Tesla?

I also care about false information which is why when people say Tesla doesn't get any government funding I feel the need to speak up

You inflate the subsidies Tesla receives and don't address what their competitors receive in comparison.

Have I ever said Tesla does not get any government funding? No.

 

[MP3Mike]

Every source I can find says that Superchargers cost 25-50¢/kWh. The three closest Superchargers to me in Lindale, TX; Nacogdoches, TX;, and Shreveport, LA cost 37¢/kWh which seems about average.

Supercharger rates can be as low at 10¢/kWh during off hours at some sites:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1684307191971344386

One of the new ones in Portland ranges from 14¢/kWh, from 11PM-12PM, 17¢/kWh 7PM to 11PM, to 20¢/kWh on peak of 12PM to 7PM.

But it is almost always going to be cheaper to charge where you park.