7 Major Automakers Band Together to build their own Network.

Interesting.

BMW, Hyundai, Mercedes, KIA, GM*, Honda and Stellantis will be building their own charging network (Non-Tesla branded), but will be using NACS, along side CCS which I think they'll eventually phase out?

If so this may indirectly confirm that the Big 7 will be adopting the NACS? (*GM already did as we know), but instead of using Tesla SCs they'll be just building their own "stations" which is smart from a business perspective so good on them. They obviously know that there is a huge piece of the pie up for grabs in an untapped free market.

It keeps Tesla from monopolizing (giving consumers more options), which is a positive thing. After all if it's NACS that's a win win.

The Big 7 plan to build 30,000 charging stations with the focus of making them more like a gas stations with the option to purchase food and snacks etc. Going into it with this intent out of the gate is much better than what Tesla did in just putting up chargers where they could without these amenities.

The new network from the Big 7 can charge all EVs so essentially this isn't necessary a bad thing for Tesla owners.

What do you guys think about this? I was curious why things were so quiet with the Big 7, while Ford and some others were quick to throw in the white flag submitting to the Tesla throne. I get it now...

Simply put, if Tesla was the Chevron, we'll now be getting a Shell, all of which we can utilize so it's just another option (network) to accommodate the future of EVs, except now it'll come with the convenience of having restrooms, food, snacks, and drinks like the old dyno juice stations.

 

[Russell]

Maybe you're right but it's disingenuous to not show your numbers and just outright dismiss the federal backing that both companies are getting... Tesla sold what like a million cars? At $7500 back each that's like $7.5B .. I know it goes into my thought process when buying a car and I doubt I'm alone ... Could they survive without the rebate? Probably but it's still there

You're vague.

What time frame did consumers buy the million Teslas and was the Tax Credit even available to them during that time? Show your sources.

Was the million cars sold in US only or worldwide? Show your sources.

The Tax Credit is only available to buyers below a certain income level. Do you really think EVERY buyer were below those levels?

• $300,000 for married couples filing jointly
• $225,000 for heads of households
• $150,000 for all other filers

 

[tivoboy]

I am surprised we are talking about tax credits instead of promise of 30,000 chargers. That is a ridiculously high number. Tesla curranty has ~1,800 Super Chargers in North America, and that is the best charging network we have. EA has 800. Now these companies will build 30,000??? I guess anybody can claim anything to get in the news, but how many are we really going to get? This happens constantly with EV manufactures too. They promise that their future EV is going to be able to travel some huge amount of miles and cost very little, but those promises never come to fruition.

As a consumer I welcome more chargers, especially if they have NACS. But I am very skeptical of what we are going to get.

Don’t confuse LOCATIONS with CHARGING PORTS..Tesla has arguably about 18,000 charging ports in USA. I think the gov’t wants to build about 30,000 ADDITIONAL CHARGING PORTS across most highway and high traffic routes.

As a comparison, there are ~ 100,000 gas stations (some convenience stations and some just gas, so these numbers can move around ~ 20%) which probably have on average FOUR nozzles. I don’t think in any way the objective is to replicate that level of penetration and it shouldn’t be.

but, 30,000 DCFC charging PORTS across the USA would go a long way in enabling more EV adoption, usage, comfort, CONFIDENCE in the average NA buyer/owner.

 

[zroger73]

I don’t think in any way the objective is to replicate that level of penetration and it shouldn’t be.

That's right. Most people can do most of their charging at home and most people live in single-family homes where they can charge.

Even my wealthiest friends don't have gas pumps at their homes.

 

[MP3Mike]

Don’t confuse LOCATIONS with CHARGING PORTS..

I don't think ports is a good term either. Many chargers have two ports, but in most cases only one can be used at a time. I think stalls is better, but even with that there may be some locations where one charger is shared between two parkig spots, which could be counted as two stalls by some.

I think the gov’t wants to build about 30,000 ADDITIONAL CHARGING PORTS across most highway and high traffic routes.

The government, via NEVI funds, will likely only fund ~17k charging stalls over the 5 years of the program. (It is possible they could fund more if bids come in very competitively, but I based my count on how many stalls the money granted so far will be funding.)

 

[tivoboy]

That's right. Most people can do most of their charging at home and most people live in single-family homes where they can charge.

Even my wealthiest friends don't have gas pumps at their homes.

I just had our gas pump REMOVED!!!!! (Seriously though, old farm, had a gas pump - with a crank, had a tank underground and we had it removed to make way for a larger battery storage pad. ;-). )

 

[MP3Mike]

The Tax Credit is only available to buyers below a certain income level. Do you really think EVERY buyer were below those levels?

• $300,000 for married couples filing jointly
• $225,000 for heads of households
• $150,000 for all other filers

And on top of that a single person has to earn ~$70k to qualify for the full tax credit. A couple would have to make ~$92k. (And both of those assume zero kids.)

So there at lots of people that will only get a portion of the tax credit.

 

[father_of_6]

I'm happy to have access to Tesla's Supercharger network. Although it'd be great to have access to double that number of charger stalls, I've read too many horror stories about other networks... I'm just not confident they'll be reliable, even if the fed mandates it.

I've not yet found a place I couldn't drive, and have driven across several states and used many Superchargers... only once did I run into a single stall that didn't work. I just moved over one spot to the working one. I'm not saying anything you all don't know already - Tesla's charging network is reliable and vast. I was surprised to find a new one recently in Parish, NY on my way to a remote region of ADK. It gets better every year.

Crossing fingers this party of 7 can actually build something as reliable. Also hoping that they all become "plug and charge" (no paying at the stall).

 

[gt2690b]

And on top of that a single person has to earn ~$70k to qualify for the full tax credit. A couple would have to make ~$92k. (And both of those assume zero kids.)

So there at lots of people that will only get a portion of the tax credit.

Even people that make 45k pay over 5k in taxes.. plus is anyone questioning that no matter how you slice who gets how much rebate the bottom line is Tesla is getting the most of them?

 

[MP3Mike]

Even people that make 45k pay over 5k in taxes..

No, I think it would be about $3,600 in Federal taxes, less if they have 1 or more kids. (Which is all the EV tax credit can reduce.)

plus is anyone questioning that no matter how you slice who gets how much rebate the bottom line is Tesla is getting the most of them?

I have no idea how many people buying a Tesla qualify for the tax credit. It certainly isn't all. And a bunch of the ones that do, don't qualify for all of the tax credit.

 

[gt2690b]

You're vague.

What time frame did consumers buy the million Teslas and was the Tax Credit even available to them during that time? Show your sources.

Was the million cars sold in US only or worldwide? Show your sources.

The Tax Credit is only available to buyers below a certain income level. Do you really think EVERY buyer were below those levels?

• $300,000 for married couples filing jointly
• $225,000 for heads of households
• $150,000 for all other filers

I was taking a wild ass guess but my point was that Tesla gets a good chunk of federal dollars

Throw in things like the 100k cars that hertz bought and got 30% back from the feds and you're easily getting into the billions that Tesla received one way or another

 

[tivoboy]

No, I think it would be about $3,600 in Federal taxes, less if they have 1 or more kids. (Which is all the EV tax credit can reduce.)


I have no idea how many people buying a Tesla qualify for the tax credit. It certainly isn't all. And a bunch of the ones that do, don't qualify for all of the tax credit.

Ur most likely not counting payroll taxes in that amount

 

[MP3Mike]

Ur most likely not counting payroll taxes in that amount

You mean Medicare/Social Security/etc.? The EV tax credit can't reduce them, so they aren't relevant to the conversation.

 

[gt2690b]

You mean Medicare/Social Security/etc.? The EV tax credit can't reduce them, so they aren't relevant to the conversation.

Imma go out on a limb and say most people buying Tesla's make more than 45k

 

[tivoboy]

You mean Medicare/Social Security/etc.? The EV tax credit can't reduce them, so they aren't relevant to the conversation.

Correct, but the quote above was “even people that make 45k pay over 5k in taxes”..so their quote is correct. Payroll taxes ARE taxes… but I seriously doubt that @gt2690b was trying to be that cute or sly with verbiage, but in the end the quote is accurate if not certainly misleading in this context.

so yeah, making 45K doesn’t get one all the 7,500 tax credit unless there are a LOT of deductions ( which there certainly could be).. frankly, there should be some type of calculator with disclaimers of course that helps ppl on the Tesla/OEM buying site.

 

[Russell]

I was taking a wild ass guess but my point was that Tesla gets a good chunk of federal dollars

Throw in things like the 100k cars that hertz bought and got 30% back from the feds and you're easily getting into the billions that Tesla received one way or another

Yes you were.

30% back from the feds is from what program? I don't think corporations can claim the $7500 tax credit.

 

[tivoboy]

Imma go out on a limb and say most people buying Tesla's make more than 45k

Avg. household income of a “tesla” buyer is more than 2x the national average, ~ 135K a year. S and X do drive this number higher but not by more than 10K

they are also mostly MALE (67%) , WHITE (85%) without children (67%) and college educated.

 

[gt2690b]

Yes you were.

30% back from the feds is from what program? I don't think corporations can claim the $7500 tax credit.

Biden rebates

Opinion | Behind That Hertz Tesla Purchase

From WSJopinion: There’s a pot of federal subsidy gold behind the Hertz decision to buy 100,000 Teslas for its car-rental fleet

headtopics.com

 

[Russell]

Biden rebates

Opinion | Behind That Hertz Tesla Purchase

From WSJopinion: There’s a pot of federal subsidy gold behind the Hertz decision to buy 100,000 Teslas for its car-rental fleet

headtopics.com

A different program... the Commercial Clean Vehicle Credit
Since we are talking about passenger vehicles under 14,000 lbs, the maximum credit is $7,500.

Commercial Clean Vehicle Credit | Internal Revenue Service

Businesses and tax-exempt organizations that buy electric vehicles and mobile machinery may qualify for clean vehicle tax credits up to $40,000.

www.irs.gov

 

[gt2690b]

A different program... the Commercial Clean Vehicle Credit
Since we are talking about passenger vehicles under 14,000 lbs, the maximum credit is $7,500.

Commercial Clean Vehicle Credit | Internal Revenue Service

Businesses and tax-exempt organizations that buy electric vehicles and mobile machinery may qualify for clean vehicle tax credits up to $40,000.

www.irs.gov

Ok? That's still almost a billion in that sale alone

That's also 2023 tax rule I think it was different in 2021

 

[gt2690b]

Newsome claims Tesla got over 3B just from california state subsidies:

Gov. Newsom Says California Subsidies Powered Tesla’s Success

Leaders of the Golden State have long sought credit for the success of the world's largest electric-car manufacturer, and now Newsom is suggesting the state's incentives are responsible for the emergence of Tesla.

www.govtech.com