For some charging is a nessesity, expensive coffee is a choice for everyone.
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Sainsbury's Launch Own-Brand Charging Network
- Thread starter randompixel
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Not the best of analogies I'm afraid
Who has a beans-to-cup coffee machine at home? Brewing a regular cup of instant coffee and getting a proper coffee from somewhere are not the same end product.
It's the same electricity that allows you to travel the same distance whether you fill up at home on Octopus (7.5p/kW) or Sainsburys (75p/kW).
He said a Latte, mentioned the ingredients being beans and milk and feeling sorry for people that don't have a coffee machine, so it's not likely to be an instant coffee. His analogy gets better when you consider the coffee machine probably cost about the same or more than a home charger.Not the best of analogies I'm afraid
Who has a beans-to-cup coffee machine at home? Brewing a regular cup of instant coffee and getting a proper coffee from somewhere are not the same end product.
It's the same electricity that allows you to travel the same distance whether you fill up at home on Octopus (7.5p/kW) or Sainsburys (75p/kW).
Also the purchase price of electricity for Sainsburys isn't going to be the same as Octopus, for a start you are comparing a day price with an overnight price (which is subsidised by an inflated day price). Octopus also makes a loss which is ok in their growth model, Sainsbury's shareholders wouldn't like that.
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Sainsbury has 1425 locations and Tesla has 110 location and gridserve another 170. Imagine how this will transform if Tesco (2500) and Morrisons (have no idea how many) follow. The point is this may not be cheap like home charging but that is not the issue at the moment with EV. You go to a place in UK - if you have a Tesla then it works based on SCs.
But again if you are going to a place around 200miles distance (imagine you don’t have LR) and you know the place where you are going do not have a DC or home charger and the Tesla SCs is somewhere around 50miles distance (given the unreliability of other 50kw chargers) - you have no choice but to stop and charge on your way to that place even though it is not needed to reach that place. I think this is mainly because of unreliable chargers and too many 7kws chargers that are not very useful in this scenario. Expecting hotels and other providers to fill this gap is a huge task. Now if Sainsbury's and Tesco set up ultra rapids with easy credit card payment system, if I have to go to from Amesbury to Lizzard point - I can SC at Lifton and then don’t have to worry whether there is anything else available at Lizzard point or Helston for my return journey to Lifton. I can go to the Sainsbury/Tesco at Helston and quickly SC in 15mts to go up to Lifton and then use the Tesla SCs.
Wherever you go you don’t have to worry about chargers you just need to find out whether there are any Sainsbury’s in 5-10miles and then you can use it. Given the number of locations they have got it will transform EV journey. And these chargers are not for people who do not have home chargers or shoppers who wants to fill up their battery when they are shopping.
The flaw in this line of thinking that what we need is rows and rows of 7kw chargers close to home is pretty obvious we have done that and it is not very successful in transforming charging network.
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Not exactly. When getting something from a coffee shop your paying for high street rent, wages, and (moderate) barista skills.
When charging, you're just using exactly the same electricity than at home.
Plus you had to make the trip to the store, where you will no doubt contribute to their sales while you're waiting for your car to charge on their car park. And you could have done exactly the same at home during your sleep.
Not a good analogy in my book.
I do. They're not rare and a decent one can be picked up from £300...Not the best of analogies I'm afraid
Who has a beans-to-cup coffee machine at home? Brewing a regular cup of instant coffee and getting a proper coffee from somewhere are not the same end product.
It's the same electricity that allows you to travel the same distance whether you fill up at home on Octopus (7.5p/kW) or Sainsburys (75p/kW).
Fast chargers have significant capital outlay and so complaining the price of electricity is not the same at home completely ignores this fact.
It's a great analogy because the coffee machine is capital expenditure which effectively is repaid over the life of the machine, divided by the number of cups of coffee dispensed...
I think having more options has to be better, even if only 7kW. The Costco we visit has 7kW chargers and is free whilst shopping. To get 5-7kWh added to our car for free whilst shopping seems a nice perk. It means our round trip is covered by Costco. At a different shop if it were less than 20 minutes I might not bother. But having options is good. And I have to believe that other customers seeing a myriad of EVs plugged in at the free chargers helps raise the profile of life with an EV. Do we go to Costco because of the free charging? No. Do I have a more favourable view of Costco because of them? Yes.
And where do you account for the capital cost of the charger, the enabling works, the DNO connection, the payment processing, the backend (and 24/7 support line), insurance, ongoing maintenance?
Charging necessity indeed - presumably after making the conscious choice to buy or lease a moderately expensive electric vehicle, with a full understanding of the likely costs involved....
None of this matter to the end user charging his car, it's just electrons going into the battery, and they're the same whether you do it at home or on a Sainsbury charger.
Right, and the end user doesn't concern themselves with these costs in a coffee shop either, but you took time to explain them in that scenario and omit them when discussing charging
Fast chargers come with significant capital and ongoing costs which is why they are more expensive than your home electricity by a multiple.
The coffee shop analogy.
About 800 of those are convenience branches, likely without parking. 600 are superstores, the vast majority with parking.
But yes, rapid charging points at supermarkets would make a huge difference to EV roadtrips and holidays. I dare say that a good number would also use them as their regular car chargepoints, even if we know that destination charging is generally cheaper and more convenient.
75p/kWh is obvious quite pricey, my assumption is they've just priced against the market as an opening gambit
Not sure I’ll do that but an option like that will help certain EVusers. But the local councillors and some of the vested parties aren’t that informed about EVs and charging conundrums to put it mildly. They may be tempted by this locally populist scheme of setting up rows and rows of 7kw chargers without understanding their inherent flaws.
That is the whole point at the moment - taking an EV outside of your comfort zone. Especially if it is not a LR, forget about it if it is a non-Tesla.
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HenryT
Active Member
Agreed. I would hope that is in the longer term thinking, when a wider network of Sainsbury's chargers is up and running.
Likewise, doubtless they will 'have a plan' to leverage the perceived advantage the charging network offers them. Store credit, charging discount via loyalty cards or similar?
Except @btc1k was making an analogy based on this post:
..where that person is talking about essentially not having ANY ability to make coffee at home, i.e. not having a kettle, never mind a coffee machine. The comparison therefore is specious because it's not like-for-like. Someone who has access to a home charger can pay 7.5p/kW for exactly the same electrons (aka cup of coffee) that they would get at a coffee shop, for 75p/kW.
The rest of your post is white noise about the cost of electricity for Sainsburys and whatever their shareholders might think which has got absolutely nothing to do with how much it costs someone without access to a home charger to run an EV, relying solely on
But a fancy coffee machine is not equivalent to "home charging facilities" though. If someone can't charge their car at home, it would be more accurate to think of them not being able to use a kettle, and therefore not being able to make coffee AT ALL at home, and having to buy coffee (in whatever form that takes) from coffee shop, paying the inflated price. That is who @WllXM is feeling sorry for.
(For what it's worth I have a beans-to-cup machine as well, but still buy Costas etc when out and about because I don't have access to my coffee machine at home when I'm out and about and need coffee. i need coffee a lot more often than I need to charge my car
As a consumer I honestly don't care how much it costs Sainsburys et al to provide public charging. I care what it costs me to run an EV. If I had to rely on public charging, as many people would need to do with infrastructure being what it is, then it would be unsustainable based on these prices, and availability.
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Exactly this. I do not care how much anything cost to someone who provides me a service. I care about my wallet. I cannot care less about Shareholders of Tesco or Saisnbury's or so.
that is the reason I almost never charge at 3rd party fast/rapid chargers. they are just too expensive.
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