UK Motorway Charging

[adsheff]

Reading this article doesn't sound too positive about the future of motorway charging infrastructure -
Power vacuum: road to fast charging at UK services has been ‘laboriously slow’

But I'm interested in the claim that every motorway services will need at least 30-40 ultra rapid chargers in the near future - totalling the output of the average nuclear power plant just for Moto Services alone.

It strikes me that we need a more joined up approach than just blunt-force numbers of chargers. More than anything, I think longer-ranged EVs would preclude the need for as many chargers in the UK at least. If we had EVs that could comfortably do 350-400 motorway miles with some spare in the tank at the end, then I think the majority of us would never need to top up en-route.

Furthermore if we had a lot more slow-medium chargers in car parks, people would keep their cars topped up more regularly. A prime example is airports - drive to Heathrow for 2.5 hours, leave your car for a week, you then have to stop at a supercharger on the way home. If we had slow chargers in every space in airport carparks - the charge on the way home wouldn't be needed. As it is, there are *some* chargers at parking spaces at Heathrow, but nowhere near enough. The emphasis seems to be on building more ultra rapids - but perhaps they are missing the obvious.

Be interested to know people's thoughts.

 

[WannabeOwner]

If we had EVs that could comfortably do 350-400 motorway miles

Probably will come - battery costs drop / battery energy-density increases.

However, whilst battery availibity is constrained I would prefer 2x as many EVs on the road, with half-the-size battery, rather than, like me ... a car with a 100kWh battery which I need a few times a year. My range is just shy of 300 miles at motorway speed

That said, when we go to Alps we have to stop to charge every 2h30m-ish, which means we arrive in very good condition - whereas with ICE, and when we were a lot younger!, we drove non-stop - couple of minutes to change drivers, refuel every 600+ miles, we arrived knackered. So not sure that >300 mile range is actually beneficial for long journeys (towing = yes probably some other edge-cases too )

Also, my original EV was 240 mile range, new one is 300 miles, and my Supercharging has gone from 2x a month to a couple of times a year (30K miles p.a.). So, apart from USA - where they think nothing of driving 3 or 4 hours for "dinner", 300 miles is a lot more compatible with my journey mix, than 240 miles was.

As the range increases, the contingency stays the same, so more "actual miles" as a percentage of max-range. More journeys where you don't need public charging, and when you do more journeys where it is splash-and-dash rather than 20-min-stop.

I think if all the SR get replaced with LR then the amount of holiday traffic charging will be reduced - so as the fleet grows ,and the range increases, the same number of trip-charging-stalls would, maybe?, suffice. But ... people budget may mean they buy "enough range for 80:20" and then they will be part of holiday traffic public charging capacity problem.

A prime example is airports - drive to Heathrow for 2.5 hours, leave your car for a week, you then have to stop at a supercharger on the way home.

Early days here. Norway already has airport parking jamm-packed with slow chargers.

 

[M1tch]

Our government - missing the obvious? Of course they are!

No matter what our government does, it won’t meet the requirement, it will be trillions over budget, years behind schedule, will fail at the first hurdle and will line the pockets of some MP through shameful, backhanded loopholes.

 

[Zilla91]

and will line the pockets of some MP through shameful, backhanded loopholes.

Not everything has to be some kind of corruption or conspiracy theory. As had been made clear in the COVID enquiry evidence over the last few days, the machinery of government is slow and incompetent.

 

[ajmorr.is]

Reading this article doesn't sound too positive about the future of motorway charging infrastructure -
Power vacuum: road to fast charging at UK services has been ‘laboriously slow’

But I'm interested in the claim that every motorway services will need at least 30-40 ultra rapid chargers in the near future - totalling the output of the average nuclear power plant just for Moto Services alone.

It strikes me that we need a more joined up approach than just blunt-force numbers of chargers. More than anything, I think longer-ranged EVs would preclude the need for as many chargers in the UK at least. If we had EVs that could comfortably do 350-400 motorway miles with some spare in the tank at the end, then I think the majority of us would never need to top up en-route.

Furthermore if we had a lot more slow-medium chargers in car parks, people would keep their cars topped up more regularly. A prime example is airports - drive to Heathrow for 2.5 hours, leave your car for a week, you then have to stop at a supercharger on the way home. If we had slow chargers in every space in airport carparks - the charge on the way home wouldn't be needed. As it is, there are *some* chargers at parking spaces at Heathrow, but nowhere near enough. The emphasis seems to be on building more ultra rapids - but perhaps they are missing the obvious.

Be interested to know people's thoughts.

I saw this report linked yesterday via a Twitter post and thought it was interesting & worth a mention; EV charging statistics 2023 - Zapmap

 

[thewishy]

It strikes me that we need a more joined up approach than just blunt-force numbers of chargers. More than anything, I think longer-ranged EVs would preclude the need for as many chargers in the UK at least. If we had EVs that could comfortably do 350-400 motorway miles with some spare in the tank at the end, then I think the majority of us would never need to top up en-route.

Furthermore if we had a lot more slow-medium chargers in car parks, people would keep their cars topped up more regularly. A prime example is airports - drive to Heathrow for 2.5 hours, leave your car for a week, you then have to stop at a supercharger on the way home. If we had slow chargers in every space in airport carparks - the charge on the way home wouldn't be needed. As it is, there are *some* chargers at parking spaces at Heathrow, but nowhere near enough. The emphasis seems to be on building more ultra rapids - but perhaps they are missing the obvious.

Be interested to know people's thoughts.

On large batteries. TBH, an LR Tesla battery for anybody with home charging should be about the limit of what someone could reasonably drive on a motorway without needing a break.
Large batteries are expensive. I have an LR and need the capacity for a journey maybe twice a month on average, otherwise the half the capacity is sat there unused. If there are requirements to move the rapid charging "off peak", then it makes far more sense for the large batteries to be located at the rapid chargers where they get used daily.

The difficulty is always going to be sizing for Christmas when lots of people are moving, and EV efficiency is at it's worst...


Heathrow is probably a bad example for charging, as you'll tie up an EVSE for a week. But in general, more chargers of all speeds are needed in carparks, 7-11kw for "I'm on a business trip, but I'm staying all day", or theme parks, zoos, etc. I see destination charging as an EV superpower.

In Norway, superchargers in the supermarket carparks just made so much sense - significant charge achieved while just doing a little shop when you're away from home.

The government see Destination chargers as a small investment which individual businesses can make, whereas rapids are a major investment which it wants to at least pretend it's supporting...

 

[adsheff]

I don't deny the need for breaks when driving at all - just if we had bigger batteries the break wouldn't have to entail a high-powered charging session too!

I have a regular drive from the South West to the North East. It's 352 miles, and my Model Y can manage about 230 - 280 miles at motorway speeds, depending on the weather, but you need to leave a 5-10% margin so really in the winter that's down to about 210 miles max on the motorway ( I know it would go 300+ miles if I drove at 40mph! ). If that thing could do 300 miles at motorway speeds in the winter, then I would only need to charge for 5 minutes at the most somewhere - so far less supercharging needed!

 

[ringi]

But I'm interested in the claim that every motorway services will need at least 30-40 ultra rapid chargers in the near future - totalling the output of the average nuclear power plant just for Moto Services alone

There ie no possibility they will all be giving full outout at the same time.

 

[Jason71]

There ie no possibility they will all be giving full outout at the same time.

If you take the 46 moto services multiply by 40 and then by 350kw you are indeed in the ball park of a nuclear power station but as you say its very misleading because even if 1800 Taycans all plugged in on 10% state of charge at the same time the stalls at each site would be sharing a grid connection that would not actually allow for all chargers to be running at close to full power simultaneously since the reality is that that never happens.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Yes, diversity comes into play - Tesla V3 sites share power, you just don’t notice because it’s over enough stalls where not all will be at 250kw and even if they could be we’d probably just put it down the weather, state of charge or having a bad day if we only got say 175kw.

I’m seeing an increasing number of service stations adding a lot of rapids, typically 12 that aren’t Tesla, add to the 8-12 that are and you’ve got 20 rapids. I’m not sure what the figures are but if 1 in 10 cars are electric and we’re getting 20 now, that does suggest large numbers in the future

But I think the argument is like saying at a motorway service centre there are 16 petrol pumps, each can deliver fuel at a rate of 2 gallons a minute, 120 gallons an hour per pump, say 1500 gallons per hour across the 16 pumps, 36k gallons per day… a fuel tanker every few hours would be required

 

[Jaysuey51]

Is 30-40 that big of a number? I was at Rugby recently it must have close to 40 chargers and while there was space on the superchargers the Gridserve I think it was had a queue.

The problem is always going to be about building a system that can cope with peak demands rather than the regular predictable stuff. Look at the snow and queues at superchargers last year, you'll never build enough chargers to cope with that because it's not cost effective to do so.

 

[Jason71]

Is 30-40 that big of a number? I was at Rugby recently it must have close to 40 chargers and while there was space on the superchargers the Gridserve I think it was had a queue.

The problem is always going to be about building a system that can cope with peak demands rather than the regular predictable stuff. Look at the snow and queues at superchargers last year, you'll never build enough chargers to cope with that because it's not cost effective to do so.

Truth is the Rapid charger network is not on course to cope with Peak demand now or ever.
Coping with Bank holiday/first Saturday in July demand means building a capacity that will sit idle 330+ days of the year and no commercial organisation is interested in doing that. Can you think of anything we do that does not result in queues at peak times? The problem is when it comes to EV charging the queues could be long and the PR is terrible since the status queue ICE has far less of an issue. So it seems like, and is , a step backwards in convenience and no one likes to give up something they have for something worse
More rapid chargers is not going to solve the peak demand issue only longer range EV's and changes in peoples behaviour will do that e.g. better journey planning where possible. Sadly people will have to learn that you can't just set off on a bank holiday thinking ill just fuel up when I need to like you would in an ICE. You have to plan a bit and that is how it will be for the foreseeable future.

 

[MrBadger]

Can you think of anything we do that does not result in queues at peak times?

Improve/deploy/reduce costs of other forms of transport to reduce our love affair with the car.
And spread holidays over 365 days which the kits would also love. Elon said its going to happen...

 

[AndyWarrington]

Can you think of anything we do that does not result in queues at peak times?

I think it's more about 'what is deemed acceptable to queue for' - so a football match for e.g. I go to OT often, I know I'm going you queue to get in, no getting away from it, it's frustrating but we expect, process and accept it. Similar for getting a flight.

It seems a lot of folks don't see it the same way with EV charging - guess this will change over time with availability of more chargers & locations, more importantly the attitude towards it

If you're travelling mid July, Bank Hol weekends, Xmas etc you know a lot others will be too so why can't it become the norm for folks to expect, process and expect it?

You have to plan a bit and that is how it will be for the foreseeable future

This exactly it

 

[Jason71]

Improve/deploy/reduce costs of other forms of transport to reduce our love affair with the car.

I would say ruin / increase cost / reduce convenience of driving to the point where the alternatives become more appealing is probably the more likely scenario tbh.

 

[Jason71]

I think it's more about 'what is deemed acceptable to queue for' - so a football match for e.g. I go to OT often, I know I'm going you queue to get in, no getting away from it, it's frustrating but we expect, process and accept it. Similar for getting a flight.

Ah but if you had been able to walk straight in your whole life and then one week you turned up and they said sorry we got rid of most of the staff so we only have one turnstile now so you have to queue for an hour how would you feel about it then?

 

[ringi]

Just outlaw all bank holidays and require that employers increase the number of flexible leave days to compensate.

Charging networks should also radically increase prices at peak times and reduce them at times of low demand.

 

[AndyWarrington]

Ah but if you had been able to walk straight in your whole life and then one week you turned up and they said sorry we got rid of most of the staff so we only have one turnstile now so you have to queue for an hour how would you feel about it then?

I think if they expanded the ground for higher capacity it'd suit this comment better and be still relative to the current charging on the move scenario....

Answer is evolve... new entrances or stadium/more chargers but still you've to expect, process because queuing will never go away....

 

[spdpsba]

Can you think of anything we do that does not result in queues at peak times?

I did not wait anywhere in France, Italy or Switzerland while we did the road trip when it was peak holiday period in Europe. They may be doing something right there that makes it easy to manage - I don’t know the infrastructure details in France or Italy to answer that. Other than less number of cars (compared to UK per population) and large geography something else is contributing to their effective management of EVs.

I am wondering whether any human factors play a huge role in UK ending up with large EV queues during the peak times like being too risk averse, not planning in advance, bit of selfishness and having too many 150miles city cars as EVs and then jaunt across the counties to do Cornwall trips. I don’t know but I have decided my next EV will be the LR rather than the RWD because of these queues - something I can control.

 

[ringi]

It may be that due to longer distances they don't get so many people setting off at the same time so wishing to stop at the same times.