7 Major Automakers Band Together to build their own Network.

Interesting.

BMW, Hyundai, Mercedes, KIA, GM*, Honda and Stellantis will be building their own charging network (Non-Tesla branded), but will be using NACS, along side CCS which I think they'll eventually phase out?

If so this may indirectly confirm that the Big 7 will be adopting the NACS? (*GM already did as we know), but instead of using Tesla SCs they'll be just building their own "stations" which is smart from a business perspective so good on them. They obviously know that there is a huge piece of the pie up for grabs in an untapped free market.

It keeps Tesla from monopolizing (giving consumers more options), which is a positive thing. After all if it's NACS that's a win win.

The Big 7 plan to build 30,000 charging stations with the focus of making them more like a gas stations with the option to purchase food and snacks etc. Going into it with this intent out of the gate is much better than what Tesla did in just putting up chargers where they could without these amenities.

The new network from the Big 7 can charge all EVs so essentially this isn't necessary a bad thing for Tesla owners.

What do you guys think about this? I was curious why things were so quiet with the Big 7, while Ford and some others were quick to throw in the white flag submitting to the Tesla throne. I get it now...

Simply put, if Tesla was the Chevron, we'll now be getting a Shell, all of which we can utilize so it's just another option (network) to accommodate the future of EVs, except now it'll come with the convenience of having restrooms, food, snacks, and drinks like the old dyno juice stations.

 

[Elektrick]

When Ford announced that they would be adopting the NACS, I didn't think much of it other than "Yay to NACS, eliminate CCS." Then GM made their announcement, following some others like Rivian, Volvo, and Polestar.

That's when I thought "oh crap, now the Tesla SCs will be bottle necked with cars waiting to charge."

The rate of building Tesla SCs would have to surpass the demand (in ratio) from the ones that have confirmed to use the NACS, otherwise it would get crowded really fast.

In the back of my mind I had a funny feeling that the rate of new Tesla SCs would be far less than the growth of EVs hitting the roads. Now with this new announcement, alleviating the demand seems a lot more realistic, because as some of you know waiting in line to charge is already a reality that Tesla owners are facing today.

The more that I think about this announcement from the Big 7, I'm all for it. I really think it's the right move and as mentioned from a business standpoint it makes all the sense.

 

[yerEVan]

Seems time from groundbreaking to completion would be much greater if they are also building the amenities compared to just building SCs.

More options are always better.

 

[Elektrick]

Do you guys think Ford will regret their decision knowing that they're missing out on a huge opportunity to capitalize in a wide open free market?

There is huge money on the table here with the charging infrastructure. I wonder if that ink has dried with there being a no point of return for Ford even if they wanted to recall their decision to join Tesla?

 

[Elektrick]

Seems time from groundbreaking to completion would be much greater if they are also building the amenities compared to just building SCs.

More options are always better.

That's a great point. I was thinking about that as well. However, with the combined forces from 7 major companies, with big money going into the project, I think the rate of completion may end up being much faster than usual? It'll be very interesting to see how this all plays out.

This news still has me pretty intrigued. My mind is churning now with some scenarios on what may be on their white board.

I wonder if the Big 7 will try to buy out some existing gas stations? Location, location, location. I remember several small corner gas stations growing up and seeing them get bought out by large grocery chain stores. This scenario differs as we're dealing with the Big Petrol Mafia, who couldn't be more of a rival to flowing electrons.

Fast forward 10-20-30 years from now, we may end up seeing a huge turn over of charging stations that were once gas stations. My best guess is that the Petrol companies are going to just ride this out until the very end.

 

[henderrj]

Do you guys think Ford will regret their decision knowing that they're missing out on a huge opportunity to capitalize in a wide open free market?

There is huge money on the table here with the charging infrastructure. I wonder if that ink has dried with there being a no point of return for Ford even if they wanted to recall their decision to join Tesla?

Ford has already said they'll be building out a network of their own. All these manufacturers missed out on selling gas - a bigger market than selling cars - and they don't intend on advocating the charging market. Sometimes the free enterprise system works well for us consumers!

 

[threeputts]

If so this may indirectly confirm that the Big 7 will be adopting the NACS? (*GM already did as we know), but instead of using Tesla SCs they'll be just building their own "stations" which is smart from a business perspective so good on them.

Mercedes also previously announced they would adopt NACS. This does reduce the incentive for more makers to follow suit, although the Tesla network has a multi-year head start and will still be the dominant DC network for the foreseeable future. Strangest thing to me is GM is in this group and Ford is not.

 

[yerEVan]

May be a good time to buy a corner commercial lot near main highways or main roads that may be interesting to the big 7 to place a supercharger there.

 

[lencap]

I wonder if the BIG 7 will have a case of buyer's remorse pretty soon. EvGo, ChargPoint and other have learned that making money by selling electricity to EVs isn't necessarily a wonderful business model. Tesla built the SC network as a necessity to overcome range anxiety and make EVs at least possible alternatives for everyday transportation. They couldn't sell cars without the network.

Today is a bit different. So the BIG 7 will have to find a ROI solution to owning charging stations, and, it seems to me, competing with the traditional gas station model (sell gas at cost plus a small markup, but make it back on selling food/beverages/etc). My experience with Buc'ees on a recent trip to FL was not encouraging. It took literally 20 minutes to get to the SC locations after leaving the interstate. Exiting was worse - nearly 30 minutes. This wasn't an isolated incident, it's a common occurrence. Buc'ees is a "destination", and I think Tesla will soon find that it's not an ideal solution.

So what will the BIG 7 do to make EV charging station ROI additive to earnings instead of a margin drain? Don't forget Tesla still has the highest EV margins and is nearly fully vertically integrated without the overhead of traditional dealerships. So how will the BIG 7 accomplish several major goals: (1) reduce production costs to far below current levels to make EV products profitable at acceptable margin levels; (2) coordinate among 7 car manufacturers a model that now morphs into the role of gasoline stations by providing competitively priced and speedy EVSE locations; (3) maintain margins/cash flow to develop their high margin products - trucks/SUVs? Do the large gas companies just stand by and watch, or does a race to the bottom break out and margins fall for everyone? Regardless, the challenge is major, and the potential reward seems hard to achieve, especially so among 7 OEMs with different business models/products/profit margins.

 

[gt2690b]

I wonder if the BIG 7 will have a case of buyer's remorse pretty soon. EvGo, ChargPoint and other have learned that making money by selling electricity to EVs isn't necessarily a wonderful business model. Tesla built the SC network as a necessity to overcome range anxiety and make EVs at least possible alternatives for everyday transportation. They couldn't sell cars without the network.

Today is a bit different. So the BIG 7 will have to find a ROI solution to owning charging stations, and, it seems to me, competing with the traditional gas station model (sell gas at cost plus a small markup, but make it back on selling food/beverages/etc). My experience with Buc'ees on a recent trip to FL was not encouraging. It took literally 20 minutes to get to the SC locations after leaving the interstate. Exiting was worse - nearly 30 minutes. This wasn't an isolated incident, it's a common occurrence. Buc'ees is a "destination", and I think Tesla will soon find that it's not an ideal solution.

So what will the BIG 7 do to make EV charging station ROI additive to earnings instead of a margin drain? Don't forget Tesla still has the highest EV margins and is nearly fully vertically integrated without the overhead of traditional dealerships. So how will the BIG 7 accomplish several major goals: (1) reduce production costs to far below current levels to make EV products profitable at acceptable margin levels; (2) coordinate among 7 car manufacturers a model that now morphs into the role of gasoline stations by providing competitively priced and speedy EVSE locations; (3) maintain margins/cash flow to develop their high margin products - trucks/SUVs? Do the large gas companies just stand by and watch, or does a race to the bottom break out and margins fall for everyone? Regardless, the challenge is major, and the potential reward seems hard to achieve, especially so among 7 OEMs with different business models/products/profit margins.

Literally the first negative experience I've heard regarding buc-ees

 

[Elektrick]

Ford has already said they'll be building out a network of their own. All these manufacturers missed out on selling gas - a bigger market than selling cars - and they don't intend on advocating the charging market. Sometimes the free enterprise system works well for us consumers!

Indeed. Ford's position differs greatly than the Big 7. They'll be adding onto the existing Tesla network, so in a way they have a pretty big head start purely from a charger standpoint, but will that be enough?

It doesn't look like Ford will be investing in building a gas station like model, whereas the The Big 7 are so it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out.

At the end of the day and however it plays out, we the consumers win as we will benefit from the growth of having more options. I think it'll all be about scale and highly doubt that Ford can build 30,000 charging locations by themselves. After all, there's a reason they threw in the flag and bowed down to Tesla, not to mention having sugar daddy Uncle Sam pretty much bail them out again with Billions that the MSM tries to sugar coat as being a "loan." There is no way Ford will be able to pay back those Billions.

Must be nice to have the security of a "get out of jail free" card when times get rough.

Mercedes also previously announced they would adopt NACS. This does reduce the incentive for more makers to follow suit, although the Tesla network has a multi-year head start and will still be the dominant DC network for the foreseeable future. Strangest thing to me is GM is in this group and Ford is not.

I'm with you. When I saw the list at first I was surprised to see GM on there as well being the 2nd to commit to the NACS. In a weird way it makes sense as Ford and GM are not only fierce rivals, but also in a position where they wouldn't co-exist well in the same eco system. It naturally makes sense now.

May be a good time to buy a corner commercial lot near main highways or main roads that may be interesting to the big 7 to place a supercharger there.

HODL! To the current property owners.

I wonder if the BIG 7 will have a case of buyer's remorse pretty soon. EvGo, ChargPoint and other have learned that making money by selling electricity to EVs isn't necessarily a wonderful business model. Tesla built the SC network as a necessity to overcome range anxiety and make EVs at least possible alternatives for everyday transportation. They couldn't sell cars without the network.

Today is a bit different. So the BIG 7 will have to find a ROI solution to owning charging stations, and, it seems to me, competing with the traditional gas station model (sell gas at cost plus a small markup, but make it back on selling food/beverages/etc). My experience with Buc'ees on a recent trip to FL was not encouraging. It took literally 20 minutes to get to the SC locations after leaving the interstate. Exiting was worse - nearly 30 minutes. This wasn't an isolated incident, it's a common occurrence. Buc'ees is a "destination", and I think Tesla will soon find that it's not an ideal solution.

So what will the BIG 7 do to make EV charging station ROI additive to earnings instead of a margin drain? Don't forget Tesla still has the highest EV margins and is nearly fully vertically integrated without the overhead of traditional dealerships. So how will the BIG 7 accomplish several major goals: (1) reduce production costs to far below current levels to make EV products profitable at acceptable margin levels; (2) coordinate among 7 car manufacturers a model that now morphs into the role of gasoline stations by providing competitively priced and speedy EVSE locations; (3) maintain margins/cash flow to develop their high margin products - trucks/SUVs? Do the large gas companies just stand by and watch, or does a race to the bottom break out and margins fall for everyone? Regardless, the challenge is major, and the potential reward seems hard to achieve, especially so among 7 OEMs with different business models/products/profit margins.

I think that was their (EvGo, Chargepoint etc..) biggest mistake in that they invested too heavily in a charging standard that is complete trash vs the NACS. ie. Poor vision, not enough research, overly optimistic, a design that is nowhere as scalable or cost effective as Tesla's SCs and just bad luck. No one saw the adaptation wave coming with auto makers committing to the NACS. I know that it's easy to say now, but these auto makers should have easily seen warning signs stemming from the diesel gate (VW with their Embarassified America Chargers). Shame...

The big ROI solution is in the gas station model with selling food, drinks, snacks etc. What makes this scenario unique is that the demand for charging will continue to grow, unlike ICE cars now where the infrastructure and demand remain very balanced. Fast forward 10+ years there will likely be a healthier gain purely from the volume so who knows.

If I were any of the Big 7 I would nuke the dealership model and work on an online direct to consumer model like Tesla. These scum bag dealerships are doing a lot of damage to these EV brands. Some of them have very compelling EV offerings, but no one wants to walk into a bunch of fake clowns and deal with $10-$20K+ mark ups.

The Big 7 may have an advantage with having a common goal in building out their infrastructure due to it being a necessity for their EVs, regardless of the brand. One company within the 7 isn't flipping all the bill either so we could actually see some pretty good progress and results here. I think regardless of the profit margins and internal financial state of any of the Big 7, the funding for building out this infrastructure is likely in its own allocated category.

 

[gt2690b]

Indeed. Ford's position differs greatly than the Big 7. They'll be adding onto the existing Tesla network, so in a way they have a pretty big head start purely from a charger standpoint, but will that be enough?

It doesn't look like Ford will be investing in building a gas station like model, whereas the The Big 7 are so it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out.

At the end of the day and however it plays out, we the consumers win as we will benefit from the growth of having more options. I think it'll all be about scale and highly doubt that Ford can build 30,000 charging locations by themselves. After all, there's a reason they threw in the flag and bowed down to Tesla, not to mention having sugar daddy Uncle Sam pretty much bail them out again with Billions that the MSM tries to sugar coat as being a "loan." There is no way Ford will be able to pay back those Billions.

Must be nice to have the security of a "get out of jail free" card when times get rough.




I'm with you. When I saw the list at first I was surprised to see GM on there as well being the 2nd to commit to the NACS. In a weird way it makes sense as Ford and GM are not only fierce rivals, but also in a position where they wouldn't co-exist well in the same eco system. It naturally makes sense now.


HODL! To the current property owners.


I think that was their (EvGo, Chargepoint etc..) biggest mistake in that they invested too heavily in a charging standard that is complete trash vs the NACS. ie. Poor vision, not enough research, overly optimistic, a design that is nowhere as scalable or cost effective as Tesla's SCs and just bad luck. No one saw the adaptation wave coming with auto makers committing to the NACS. I know that it's easy to say now, but these auto makers should have easily seen warning signs stemming from the diesel gate (VW with their Embarassified America Chargers). Shame...

The big ROI solution is in the gas station model with selling food, drinks, snacks etc. What makes this scenario unique is that the demand for charging will continue to grow, unlike ICE cars now where the infrastructure and demand remain very balanced. Fast forward 10+ years there will likely be a healthier gain purely from the volume so who knows.

If I were any of the Big 7 I would nuke the dealership model and work on an online direct to consumer model like Tesla. These scum bag dealerships are doing a lot of damage to these EV brands. Some of them have very compelling EV offerings, but no one wants to walk into a bunch of fake clowns and deal with $10-$20K+ mark ups.

The Big 7 may have an advantage with having a common goal in building out their infrastructure due to it being a necessity for their EVs, regardless of the brand. One company within the 7 isn't flipping all the bill either so we could actually see some pretty good progress and results here. I think regardless of the profit margins and internal financial state of any of the Big 7, the funding for building out this infrastructure is likely in its own allocated category.

Isn't Tesla also heavily subsidized by the government?

 

[Elektrick]

Isn't Tesla also heavily subsidized by the government?

In their unique way, but nowhere near the level of Ford. Uncle Sam's favorite child is very apparent.

 

[gt2690b]

In their unique way, but nowhere near the level of Ford. Uncle Sam's favorite child is very apparent.

Percentage wise I haven't seen the numbers but virtually every Tesla sold has had some kind of rebate vs less than half of Ford's cars and trucks correct?

 

[MP3Mike]

If I were any of the Big 7 I would nuke the dealership model and work on an online direct to consumer model like Tesla.

They really can't. The way I understand it the laws are written such that once they have sold a single dealership they can't sell direct anywhere. Maybe they could buy back all of the dealerships, but I'm not even sure that would work. (And surely they wouldn't all sell back easily.)

 

[brkaus]

Not a great idea to buy existing gas stations to replace with electric “pumps”. Its sitting on a huge environmental liability if the tanks or plumbing ever had a leak (or will in the future if not removed).

 

[henderrj]

Percentage wise I haven't seen the numbers but virtually every Tesla sold has had some kind of rebate vs less than half of Ford's cars and trucks correct?

Comparing multiplied billions in loans, which, as has been stated, are unlikely to ever be paid back in full, to tax incentives for the purchase of cars is apples and oranges. More like apples and grapes, it's much smaller. Tesla did have a government loan early on, they paid it back fully and way ahead of schedule.

Government money is one of the oldest arguments about why Tesla made it, and doesn't stand muster when you examine it closely.

 

[gt2690b]

Comparing multiplied billions in loans, which, as has been stated, are unlikely to ever be paid back in full, to tax incentives for the purchase of cars is apples and oranges. More like apples and grapes, it's much smaller. Tesla did have a government loan early on, they paid it back fully and way ahead of schedule.

Government money is one of the oldest arguments about why Tesla made it, and doesn't stand muster when you examine it closely.

Maybe you're right but it's disingenuous to not show your numbers and just outright dismiss the federal backing that both companies are getting... Tesla sold what like a million cars? At $7500 back each that's like $7.5B .. I know it goes into my thought process when buying a car and I doubt I'm alone ... Could they survive without the rebate? Probably but it's still there

 

[KJD]

Today is a bit different. So the BIG 7 will have to find a ROI solution to owning charging stations, and, it seems to me, competing with the traditional gas station model (sell gas at cost plus a small markup, but make it back on selling food/beverages/etc). My experience with Buc'ees on a recent trip to FL was not encouraging. It took literally 20 minutes to get to the SC locations after leaving the interstate. Exiting was worse - nearly 30 minutes. This wasn't an isolated incident, it's a common occurrence. Buc'ees is a "destination", and I think Tesla will soon find that it's not an ideal solution.

The Big 7 seem to have overlooked one very important point on re creating the gas station model. With and EV I can charge at home for about 1/4 the price of the DC fast chargers. Obviously with a gas car you MUST fill up at a gas station somewhere.

Bonus I can charge at home at night while I do something else like sleep.

The Big 7 are also going to run into problems of trying to get 7 disparate companies to agree on all sorts of details. I will note that they could not even come up with a name for their network that all 7 could agree on before the press release. In fact the only detail that they did agree on was the end goal of building 30,000 stations ASAP.

Short term they might get a small number of stations up and running. Long term I predict this network will fail.

 

[zroger73]

My experience with Buc'ees on a recent trip to FL was not encouraging. It took literally 20 minutes to get to the SC locations after leaving the interstate. Exiting was worse - nearly 30 minutes. This wasn't an isolated incident, it's a common occurrence. Buc'ees is a "destination", and I think Tesla will soon find that it's not an ideal solution.

When I picked up my Tesla in Dallas a few months ago and stopped at Buc-ee's in Terrell at 6:20pm on a Wednesday, I had trouble finding their 24 Superchargers. After I finally did, there was only one in use.