I ordered the car Monday online. Since then I have received two phone calls and two emails congratulating me on my purchase including one yesterday offering to let me come out and drive the car again. I fear they are setting the bar much too high. Can this level of service possibly continue?
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Why Tesla, why now?
- Thread starter Notacarguy
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- Model S
bpoday
S60 owner in San Diego, C
+1 on the S60 being a fantastic car on its own...unless your regular mileage demands the 85 range/warranty, you can't go wrong with a 60 (+SC if needed)...I went back and forth on this as well and decided on the S60....no complaints
also, with 90 second battery swaps and cheaper batteries in the near future...the battery is starting to feel less permanent
in the end, its all relative...a Leaf owner would kill for an S40, an S40 owner is drooling over your S60...and we are all drooling over the P85D
also, with 90 second battery swaps and cheaper batteries in the near future...the battery is starting to feel less permanent
in the end, its all relative...a Leaf owner would kill for an S40, an S40 owner is drooling over your S60...and we are all drooling over the P85D
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
While I applaude you on your choice and hope that you have a great time with your Tesla, some of your statements made me cringe.
Perhaps your statement is true for quite a few car companies, but it is not like Tesla is the only one to have understood that times are changing.
For a start, cars imho have become massively more fuel efficient in the last decade. Have you ever driven a car with a TDI or TSI engine for example? I remember my father's 250 Diesel Merc from 1992. It had 90 hp and a fuel consumption of about 7 to 8 liters per 100km. His current 280 CDI has 190 hp and a fuel consumption of about 6.5 to 7 liters per 100km. Plus, that car is seven years old now and a current 220 BlueTec Diesel, while "only" having 170hp gives even better performance and that at a realistic average fuel consumption of less than 5 liters per 100km. I would call that quite an improvement.
And that is just Mercedes. If you look at BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Porsche, Skoda, VW, you can see the same kind of massive improvement. I can't say anything about the cars you mentioned as I have never driven a Japanese car, nor would I ever dream of doing so. Honda Pilot? Nissan Versa? Never even heard of them. Small wonder really, as they aren't sold in Europe. Perhaps your statements are true for Japanese car companies, I don't know.
But European manufacturers, as well as Koreans for that matter, seem to be on the right track.
And if you care to take a look at Renault, BMW or VW, you will find that even large automakers are making viable and interesting EVs (that are far more affordable to many people than a current Tesla. Model 3 will hopefully change that). True, non of these alternatives match the range or size of a Model S, but such a huge vehicle is not for many anyway, at least over here.
So again, especially as a Tesla stockholder, I am happy about every buyer of a Model S. And I second your feelings about Tesla trying to make a difference, and going about it the right way. It is just that you shouldn't count out the rest of the automotive world, or the potential that still lies in ICEs, especially when combined with an electric motor in the form of a PHEV. Not that that would be the final goal, but as a transitional medium I think they do have a lot of merit.
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Tesla is a car company, not a car, but I get your meaning. But come on, even though the Model S is a great car, it is not nearly out of this world. A Bugatti Veyron might be out of this world, because no one on this world needs such a crazy monster.
But a Model S is a truly great EV - nothing more, nothing less. Don't try calling me biased, by the way. I have driven a P85 and was blown away by the performance - but nothing else, not even the giant screen (I'm a "buttons and adequate storage solutions"-interior kind of guy after all).
Tesla is at a point where many traditional car companies should be right now. But it's no use crying over spilled milk, or calling them backward. Quite a few are trying, and are trying for real, to offer attractive alternatives, and are getting better incrementally.
Shouldn't we all be happy about that? The more EVs (and not just Teslas) on the roads the better I dare say. Get ready for the stoning if you feel otherwise. Just remember, I didn't say Jehovah :wink: Ooops.
Chas F
Model S 60kWh #P6396
AustinPowers said:
Massive improvement? Really? Comparing where technology in general was 100 years ago to where it is now would seem almost like magic to a time traveler, but the ICE would be still be very familiar to them. If I had 100 years to incrementally improve something, I would be very embarrassed for an upstart company to come out of nowhere and trounce the result of my years of labor in just about every category. What is "Skoda"? Never heard of it. I guess it would be akin to Versa?
AustinPowers said:
Why bother with a "transitional medium" if you can produce the final goal now?
AustinPowers said:
Many respected car publications here in the US would disagree with you. They have called the Model S a truly great CAR....period. I would tend to agree.
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Of course, it was a play on words on the original message - and, yes, a reference to Model S, not the company. I know it was hyperbole.
A Bugatti Veyron certainly is out of this world for very different reasons, no denying that. But I would say Model S is equally impressive, if not more so. It is just not appreciated enough because people don't know about it, understand EVs yet, have a bias against EVs (not you, by the way, just general populace resistant to change, people who say things like "I believe in fossil fuels") and Tesla styled it relatively traditionally for a reason. Make the Tesla Model S P85D look like BMW i8 and I bet it would be hailed on a level nearing the Veyron. People don't get why EVs are so special and especially they don't get why Tesla is currently the only one making really special EVs.
But the fact that Tesla is not a Veyron or an i8 is part of why I think it is out of this world. It is just out of this world good as a car. That's what makes it great. P85D just sweetened the deal. Name me one car on the market with that performance, that practicality and that simplicity all rolled into one. It has gasoline-car approaching range, which nobody else does - that isn't spectacular in itself (except compared to other EV makers), but it means good enough for this to stop being a comparison to gasoline cars. The differences start after that: It has supercar performance in a 7-seater that eats energy as frugally as a small car. The linear acceleration is a revelation. The supercharger network can make some trips even free. In many markets where consumption matters, Model S is a bargain purchase price/taxes wise. It has a large SUV level of frunk/trunk space. Indoor space is vast because no axle or exhaust pipes in the middle, even in AWD models. You can stop worrying about exhaust or start/stopping the car everywhere. It is near silent. No ICE residue clogging up the engine or requiring traditional maintenance - or taking space in the car.
The best car I have driven (before) is the Audi R8 V10. Accelerating in a P85 is more impressive to me - I can only imagine what it would be like in a P85D. All this in a car that can fit a family, more luggage than many SUVs, let alone cars in a similar shape as Model S. Without ever visiting the tank. For a purchase price that is greatly smaller. Basically, in the Model S, you get a category-beating car in most categories, including performance, space, consumption/pollution and price, all rolled into a thing that you can keep cooling and heating wherever, even remotely, without exhaust concerns. That is unprecedented. I didn't even go into how much better Tesla's multimedia system is compared to the likes of Audi and BMW. (If someone wants to read a longer formulation of my opinion, click my signature and read the first post.)
It is telling that with Model S all the comparisons are usually made to entrants in different categories. Its luggage space is compared to SUVs, even though it is not an SUV. Its performance it compared to sports or even supercars, even though it is neither. And, well, its EVness is compared to other EVs on the market, even though it is not anything like other EVs on the market. I'll give you one thing though: Competition still has more comfort features for interior. It's like smartphones in 2006 had more features than an iPhone in 2007.
As for other manufacturers, I welcome them with serious entries into the EV category. I think Audi should launch the EV R8, it was a decent first try and then they got scared. It wasn't as out of this world as Tesla, but it was a car to give EVs a good name at least. A3 e-tron is a poor first attempt. But I will call spade a spade - so far the other manufacturers are not really trying on the market and that hurts adoption. I assume this is intentional, as they have much interest still in their ICE R&D and production. Hopefully they are trying harder in the labs and eventually this will show out there as well.
On of the silliest questions I once got asked about the Model S is "Does it have any trunk space at all?" People assume so easily, by the poor performance of the traditional manufacturers in this space, that EV means batteries eating up all the space in the car. When in fact, in a Model S, it means batteries not eating up any space in the car and removal of ICE adding huge swaths of space in the car. The EV "skateboard" Tesla build their car on is a huge innovation.
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AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
Not really. The Nissan Versa (or Tiida or Latio or Dodge Trazo, depending on the market) as I found out is a forgettable compact car that has since been discontinued in most markets because of lack of success.
Skoda is one of the oldest carmakers in the world. They are renowned especially for making cars that are highly affordable while very spacious and specced with clever details. Plus, their cars are known to be very reliable and economical to run. They sell just shy of one million cars a year and are (since 1991) part of the Volkswagen Group.
But that's the point. As long as many traditional carmakers can't produce an EV with the specs of a Tesla, I'd rather have a PHEV than a pure ICE, no?
Well, perhaps you misunderstood me there. Of course, as Model S is not just an EV but also a car, it is by definition also a great CAR and not just a great EV. At least that's how I meant it. Perhaps I should write in German, because with us "Elektroauto" (which is German for EV), literally translates as "electric CAR".
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AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
No argument there at all. And what you describe about what makes Model S so special I can only second as well.
I just thought the "out of this world" statement was a bit over the top. Then again, considering the P85D(+), which I hope to be able to at least test-drive someday in the future, even I might agree on the "out of this world" nature of that beast :wink:
And thanks for noticing that I haven't got a bias against EVs. On the contrary, I have been fascinated by EVs since the 1980s. And at the moment I am seriously contemplating buying an e-Golf, to bridge the gap before I can finally lay my hands on my very own Model 3. Some years ago I thought it might be a Model S, but practical and financial realities make that impossible, sadly.
swaltner
Active Member
The "great car" / "great ev" reference doesn't have any thing to do with all EVs not being cars, but is calling out the fact that all cars are not EVs. A "great EV" says the Tesla is the top 1% of EVs that are on the market, which is what, a dozen models, so not impressive. A "great car" says it's in the top 1% of ALL vehicles being sold, not matter the style of drivetrain. Whatever vehicle you're thinking of, the Tesla is equal or better (at least for their selection criteria).
This would be similar to when computer magazines called the MacBook Air the best laptop computer on the market. That's a much broader statement than if they had stated that it was the "best Mac". Again, all Macs are computers, but not all computers are Macs, so comparing it to the generic/larger group says the item is better than a much larger group of competing products.
Chas F
Model S 60kWh #P6396
AustinPowers said:
To clarify, EV (Electric Vehicle) translates to electric car here as well, albiet a sub-category of car. When someone says "great EV", that can be interpreted as "great for an EV" but not necessarily great in the broader sense. If I did misunderstand your intent, then my apologies. Semantics can be tricky, no?
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
Right. And no hard feelings. It's just that - for a non-native speaker like myself - even the relatively simple English language does have its "obstacles" :redface:
The vehicles my wife was looking at were vehicles that were somewhat equivalent to her current SUV and the numbers speak for themselves. While you may have seen improvements in certain cars we certainly saw none in the product category we were looking at.
But the chart at this page suggests that on average fuel efficiency in vehicles (car and trucks combined since 1990 has increased from about 25 mpg to 28 mpg by 2010. Not exactly a sea change for 20 years of improvement.
History of Fuel Economy: One Decade of Innovation, Two Decades of Inaction
A little perspective: Notacarguy speaks from an American perspective and AustinPowers is German, so different realities - and also, I guess, a little different natural sympathies.
There is a lot of discussion in Europe on how accurate those consumption figures from manufacturers are and how to reliably measure them, but sure, in EU at least the average consumption has gone down.
Still, all that is evolutionary. Tesla ushers in the revolution.
There is a lot of discussion in Europe on how accurate those consumption figures from manufacturers are and how to reliably measure them, but sure, in EU at least the average consumption has gone down.
Still, all that is evolutionary. Tesla ushers in the revolution.
A few people called themselves "not a car guy", including OP. What defines a "car" guy? Probably people who are into how a "traditional" automobile operates, who likes high HP/TQ, big fat tires, intimidating exhaust sound, perhaps with a lopey cam,.... the cars are fast and look cool. The Tesla MS obviously doesn't possess some of these traits. I think the traditional car guys can still like the MS with some perspective adjustments. MS has other equally "cool", if not cooler, characteristics. I'm still an old school car guy, but really do appreciate what the MS is and stands for. Hopefully I'll be driving one, or the 3, soon.
You are spot on, for me anyway. Additional things on the MS that I would consider "car" things are the pano, air suspension, surround sound, interior lighting. The only options I chose were tech for enhanced safety and convenience and leather seats because they are easy to clean and I have two young ones.
I agree though the MS still offers people who are "car" people lots to appreciate.
rocketdallas
Member
I'm right there also. I was not in the market for an EV and grew up loving cars as a traditional car nut: appreciating HP, intake and exhaust sounds, and all of those things that seemed to give a car "character". And up until very recently, basically following the purchase of my new MS, I was on a regular cycle of buying a new car every year or two for more excitement or interest or whatever. My one irrational splurge.....
My wife pushed me into a Tesla gallery to see the Model S in person and I was amazed with its engineering and benefits of ownership. Suddenly every other regular car seemed "old" to me. It's an amazing thing how that brief experience (followed by a test drive) shattered a perspective I held forever.
My wife pushed me into a Tesla gallery to see the Model S in person and I was amazed with its engineering and benefits of ownership. Suddenly every other regular car seemed "old" to me. It's an amazing thing how that brief experience (followed by a test drive) shattered a perspective I held forever.
After over a decade driving a quaint little economy sized sedan, I really wanted to make the move to a luxury car. When I started looking around seriously, I thought a Model S was out of my range. After giving it some thought and study, I made the jump.
While I'm not the earliest of early adaptors, I'm glad to be part of what I hope is a movement that shows the industry that people are ready to make the move to electric. And not just small range, downtown-only little "smart cars"... that there is a market for long range luxury cars.
Those of us making the commitment are lucky (although luck rarely has much to do with it honestly) to be in a financial position where we can make a statement in this way. To not only show our support and passion for changing an industry, but reward ourselves with a really nice toy while doing it
While I'm not the earliest of early adaptors, I'm glad to be part of what I hope is a movement that shows the industry that people are ready to make the move to electric. And not just small range, downtown-only little "smart cars"... that there is a market for long range luxury cars.
Those of us making the commitment are lucky (although luck rarely has much to do with it honestly) to be in a financial position where we can make a statement in this way. To not only show our support and passion for changing an industry, but reward ourselves with a really nice toy while doing it
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
A little perspective: Notacarguy speaks from an American perspective and AustinPowers is German, so different realities - and also, I guess, a little different natural sympathies.
There is a lot of discussion in Europe on how accurate those consumption figures from manufacturers are and how to reliably measure them, but sure, in EU at least the average consumption has gone down.
You are right in that the official consumption figures are highly unrealistic. That is why the numbers I gave were real-life figures from vehicles I (or people I know personally) have actually driven and therefor validated by experience, not some measurement taken on an automated test-rig.
And as for perspective, true, I have a German perspective. And at least over here, the average fuel consumption has gone done quite noticably.
What I don't understand is the carmakers "need" to produce ever more powerful cars. I mean, the fuel consumption goes down while the performance of the vehicles goes up. So if e.g. Mercedes can make a new generation of cars lighter than the old one (like in the current C or S class), why offer them with ever more powerful (albeit quite efficient) engines? I think they are sometimes making it unnecessarily hard for themselves to meet the current (and future) emissions and average consumption legislation, just because they think they know that customers "want" ever more power. Status can be defined in other ways. And actually, a Model S is making quite a statement in that respect.
And about natural sympathies. True, I have natural sympathies for German carmakers, but those are also substantiated by my experience with the vehicles I have driven and the experiences friends and family have made during their lifetime as drivers of a wide range of cars.
I know it will sound annoying for non-German readers of this comment, but at least from my experience, the cars by German carmakers that I have driven were better than those from foreign manufacturers. Sorry to say, but American and especially French cars were worst.
Before Tesla, I would never have thought an American car could be a good car, let alone a great car!
Tesla is the first American carmaker that I am actually looking forward to buying and owning a car from. Not only that, but once I drive around our town in my Model 3, I will be prouder than if I drove an S-class or something even more posh!
So don't think I am unable to learn :wink:
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Awesome story, OP. I consider myself a "car guy", but I ordered my Model S for the same reason you did. I was very impressed by the Roadster when it first came out. Granted, I was too young to drive at the time. I've always been a big fan of F-bodies (Firebirds, Trans Ams, Camaros) and was about to trade my 2010 Camaro, which I had put lots of time and money into, for a new Corvette Stingray. It never even occurred to me that I could afford a Tesla (by most measurements, I probably can't), but one day I got it into my head that, with the lower cost of ownership, I could afford one.
As I've mentioned in another thread, I'm buying a Tesla because it's a pretty good car now; in anticipation of what the future will bring.
As I've mentioned in another thread, I'm buying a Tesla because it's a pretty good car now; in anticipation of what the future will bring.
I would love to hear what others have to say about the above. The common perception here in the USA is that German cars like BMW and MB, especially the higher end, expensive ones, are awesome while under warranty. When it expires, the problems surface, mechanical and usually electronics. Expensive to fix. That may be why the higher end cars (AMG, M) have large depreciations. I have friends who have lots of trouble with their S Class. I don't own any of the mentioned cars, only know about them through friends' stories.
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AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
Well, I don't know about warranty in the US, but here warranty periods are laughable, one, if you are lucky two or three years. Some Asian manufacturers offer far longer guarantee periods, but that doesn't mean their cars are generally better built or produce less annoyance for their drivers, at least from my/our experience.
And after say ten years, most cars tend to become more prone to (as you say, especially electronic) problems anyway, no matter where they come from. Will be quite interesting to see how Model S will fare by that age. Otoh, many people don't keep their cars for more than ten years anyway (my current one is nearly eleven years old now and up to now had never any major problems), the majority of people I know keep their cars for five to seven years at the most.
And after say ten years, most cars tend to become more prone to (as you say, especially electronic) problems anyway, no matter where they come from. Will be quite interesting to see how Model S will fare by that age. Otoh, many people don't keep their cars for more than ten years anyway (my current one is nearly eleven years old now and up to now had never any major problems), the majority of people I know keep their cars for five to seven years at the most.
