As mentioned elsewhere, I don't think any of the calculators for these things out there are made for an EV torque curve.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
As mentioned elsewhere, I don't think any of the calculators for these things out there are made for an EV torque curve.
Acceleration simulator
Parameters:
5000 lb, AWD, direct drive.
555 = 11.7 second 1/4 mile(not sure where you got 11.6).
750 = 10.9 second 1/4 mile.
An 8 tenths of a second different in the 1/4 mile is humongous difference in the performance world.
You're right, it doesn't perform like a 691 hp car.
Why are you angry that it performs better than a 691 hp car?
I wish Tesla would design a special car just for you. It'd have a 350 and a 341 hp motor. Both motors would be geared for efficiency but could deliver the rated hp at a tiny, narrow band like ICE cars. This car would only go 0-60 in 4 seconds. Would you be happier with this car?
Meanwhile, everyone is else happy that their car performs better than advertised, with an additional 0.1s of acceleration unlocked via a software update, and acceleration/handling that put similarly-powered and weighted ICEs to shame.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I would assume "hk ydeevne" means the same thing as "motor power". This is made more clear when they have both numbers. For example for S85 they say "367 hk" and "385 hk ydeevne". Why would they have two numbers if they don't mean two different things?
You're late to the party and obviously don't know even though it's been mentioned about a billion times by now. I don't blame you. Even as many times as it's been mentioned it can get buried in the thousands of posts on this subject. Everyone who's upset about is upset because the P85D doesn't perform at speed like a car that has anywhere near the claimed power to weight ratio. We're all thrilled with the 0-60 performance(except some folks in Norway and Denmark). Nothing beats the Tesla in that respect. Even the few cars that can beat the Tesla have to have multiple attempts, use launch mode, make tons of noise, and still can't carry cargo or people.
The P85D, however, can't keep up with cars that have less horsepower and an even worse power to weight ratio when it comes to highway passing speeds. An Audi RS7 only has 560 hp but will still out accelerate a P85D from 70-90. The RS7 has a power to weight ratio of 1 hp for every 8 lbs. The P85D claims...or at least did before they took it down.... 1 hp for every 7 lbs. But in reality the P85D has 1 hp for every 9 lbs and only passes like a car that does.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
It's possible to raise motor ratings depending on temperature conditions (peak current and power ratings are all based on the point at which the motor is overheated). The new fuse supposedly runs a lot cooler, which can allow them to push the motors to higher current limits without overheating. And the whole dual motor thing also complicates things (power mix due to gearing for example).
It's very simple to see what "motor power" means when you compare the single motors (S60/S70 vs S85) or when the dual motors are the same (60D/70D vs 85D):
S70 315 hp / 382 hp motor power
S85 373 hp / 382 hp motor power
70D 328 hp / 269 hp front and rear motor power
85D 417 hp / 269 hp front and rear motor power
Motor power obviously does not mean shaft power.
Yes, the new fuse will allow them to pull more current from the battery and push it to the same existing motors without overheating and blowing the *FUSE*.
If we take your argument at face value, then the motors should actually produce those numbers *as* as the system is configured.
If the PDL is going to make a 10.9 second 1/4 mile, it will have to make the new power ratings from both motors combined at the same time.
jcaspar
Member
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
What I mean is heat conduction from the fuse to the motor. From my understanding, conventional fuses work like a resistor and generates significant amount of heat which can conduct via the power cable to the motor. The new fuse does not work like a resistor and does not generate heat beyond what a typical section of cable will generate. And AFAIK this was never used in EV applications.
I guess we will have to wait til the P90D L is out and look at REST numbers to see (I don't mention dynos because I don't have any confidence in the dyno numbers so far for the P85D).
"hk" = horsepower and "ydeevne" = performance.
So no it does not mean anyhing remotely the same as "motor power". It simply says the car has 700hp performance with 224hp in the front and 476hp in the back...
There is no way of twisting that to mean what you want it to mean. Tesla advertised the car as 700hp without any disclaimer or other to explain that the power was purely theoretical.
Three independent dyno tests have not had any problems and results are between 413 and 460 hp
US dyno by Brooks 413: http://www.dragtimes.com/2015-Tesla-Model-S-Dyno-Results-Graphs-27143.html
DK dyno 430: http://teslaforum.dk/ow_userfiles/plugins/base/981-Tesla_Dyno.png
FIN dyno 460:http://www.teslaclub.fi/blog/22/P85D+dyno-testissä/
mobe
Member
I'm wondering now that the p90dl has been announced if the regular 85d will be software upgraded to 538 hp since the motors are capable and it seems to me that the existing battery/ fuse can handle it.
wow. When the issue was initially discovered, people thought it made around 550hp which is 20 percent less than advertised. Now it appears it makes around 30 percent less hp than advertised!? To the people and it looks like there are many who are ok with this: If tesla advertised that the D made 1000 hp but it turned out it made less than 500, would you be ok with it? If tesla said it could go 600 miles per charge but it reality, it only went 260, would you not complain? If you do have a problem with those scenarios, why don't you have any issues with this one? I'm seriously puzzled to why people don't have a problem being lied too, especially over something that involves over 100k.
That was Oscar Beck's dyno run:
http://teslaforum.dk/ow_userfiles/plugins/base/981-Tesla_Dyno.png
The belt broke, which does happen especially if you don't replace them. The belt was replaced and the dyno above was the result.
That model of dyno is:
Dynomet Aps
- - - Updated - - -
Fuses don't conduct their heat any significant distance down the conductor.
I'm sure FlasherZ can pipe in here on this one.
Riddle me this... why does Tesla advertise the 70D and 85D with actual HP (no statement about "motor power"), but the P85D with "motor power"? Take a look at the order page right now - "motor power" does not appear anywhere in the 70D and 85D specs, just a stated HP figure. When you look at the P85D, suddenly the term "motor power" appears. Not only that, but the P85D's motor power figures have now been increased to a combined 762 HP (259 HP front, 503 HP rear) if you are inclined to add them up. And that's WITHOUT the Ludicrous upgrade.
Tesla doesn't rate HP consistently across its AWD models, which makes you wonder.
Tesla doesn't rate HP consistently across its AWD models, which makes you wonder.
The reality is there aren't enough dyno tests out there to draw any exact conclusions. We know the power is capped at 555 hp before any conversion losses but how much power finally makes it to the motor shaft (less oviously) and to the wheels hasn't had enough testing.
The 413 hp result seems to low even for a P85D and with only one Mustang MW-AWD-500SE pull out there, you can't draw solid conclusions from that one test. Maybe there was an issue with the car. Maybe it had a low SOC. There's a huge different from 1 to 100%. Heck, there's a huge difference from 30 to 100%. Maybe the dyno had a problem. Maybe it was a cold day and Jack applied atmospheric correction.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I am coming late to this thread, or I would have posted sooner.
I'm with hpham007. For me it's about not being delivered what I thought I was paying for.
I've posted my sentiments on this before, in other threads. I have never been a "car-guy" so without TMC I would not have realized that my P85D did not have the originally advertised power. But I am a tech guy, and a computer guy, and I have become a very active participant here at TMC. So I am very aware of the issues. I am also someone who has a very strong sense of fairness, and really does not like to feel like I'm not getting what I paid for. It is for this reason that I think Tesla should do more for the early P85D purchasers than sell us the upgrade for what is likely to amount to only a 35% or 40% discount after installation costs.
While I won't be the one to take legal action, it would not surprise me at all if some lawyer somewhere does. There will just be too much money at stake once a few thousand people have paid for the Ludicrous upgrade.
There may be a lot of reasons why it doesn't make sense for Tesla to provide the upgrade for free. But I think there are also many reasons why it would make sense for Tesla to provide the update at either a much deeper discount, or possibly for free. The most important reasons are the good will and the good press that would come from doing something like this. Imagine the news stories: "Ludicrous Tesla Announces free upgrades for owners of their top of the line cars that will significantly increase speed and performance!" or "Is Tesla Insane? Perhaps, but their top of the line cars won't be any longer, as the company will be providing free Ludicrous Mode upgrades to increase speed and performance."
Perhaps most importantly, this would be the right thing to do. Tesla advertised 691 HP and those of us that ordered early, and frankly, plenty of other people too, thought that's what we'd be getting. We didn't. The Ludicrous upgrade will get the cars either significantly closer to 691 HP or possibly beyond it. We shouldn't have to pay (or pay much) to get the car we thought we were getting in the first place.
SDRick
Active Member
This actually makes more sense than anything I've heard. Given that the two top tier cars have the same motors, the motor power rating should be the same.
In this case, horse power actually produced between these two cars is mostly governed by the battery and related components.
What is not clear is why the inconsistency of horsepower ratings between models.
Yes, and there are factors that can result in a P85D putting out a wide range of results. Having my dyno runs where the conditions such as SOC are clearly stated or even better to have REST logs so we can see how many KW the MS is reporting at x speed vs the dyno.
Sure would like to see an 85D and P85D back to back on the same dyno with the same SOC.
Similar threads
