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What constitutes speeding?

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Only if the roads are upgraded to allow faster speeds. Just because an engine redlines at 7000 RPM doesn't mean it's good to always keep it at 7000 RPM, you want a reasonable margin of safety.



I've never said that. I maintain that speeds need to be based on the road geometry (mostly) and other factors (local situations). The problem is that many speed limits are based on revenue generation and so people assume they all are.

but Jerry, people are already going at those speeds. I am not saying that one lane roads need faster speed limits, or roads in residential, etc...but in general, highway roads where 85% are already doing a certain speed, is the speed limit that should be picked.

did you watch that first video that I linked?
 
but Jerry, people are already going at those speeds. I am not saying that one lane roads need faster speed limits, or roads in residential, etc...but in general, highway roads where 85% are already doing a certain speed, is the speed limit that should be picked.

And most of the time they'll get away with it because many of the roads have sight distances for 90 mph, even if the signs, medians, road surface, and bridge supports aren't designed for that kind of speed. But given the state of road maintenance (potholes and road debris mainly), it's a very good idea to have a margin of safety. Not everyone drives a Tesla that's safe at whatever speed you drive it at.
 
And most of the time they'll get away with it because many of the roads have sight distances for 90 mph, even if the signs, medians, road surface, and bridge supports aren't designed for that kind of speed. But given the state of road maintenance (potholes and road debris mainly), it's a very good idea to have a margin of safety. Not everyone drives a Tesla that's safe at whatever speed you drive it at.

could you spend 15mins and watch this video?
This Is The Best Takedown Of The ll Ever See

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and as you will see from the video, it isn't the fact that "MANY" of the roads aren't designed for that speed, it's more that "MOST" are, as people are already driving that speed.

I'm not sure if you think that by suggesting an increased speed limit is dangerous as people will drive faster. What has been born out of the studies is that increasing the speed limits did not change the average speed of the driver. So the highway could already handle the speed as the average remained the same.
 
Your comment that most people will drive at the speed they feel is reasonable and safe... does not correlate with my experience. My experience has been that most people will drive at 5-10 miles OVER the speed limit because they know they will not be ticketed at that speed. They "assume" that the "reasonable and safe" speed has been determined by the speed limit + 10-15 MPH.
Agree that most people feel "reasonable and safe" is above the current speed limits on many roads.
Agree that most people will drive 5-10 miles over the posted speed limit.
Agree that most people expect that they will not be ticketed at 5-10 miles over the posted speed limit.
Disagree that people necessarily correlate "reasonable and safe" to the posted speed limit in any way.

The limits are so out of whack across the spectrum that on some roads I feel like +20 is reasonable and safe while in other places -15 is reasonable and safe. When it's foggy out or "respectably raining", there's another 10-15 downward from those numbers.

In short, I think the problem is that data driven analysis is not what drives the limits. "Budget-management" and "public opinion" dominates the limit-setting process.

But what happens is this: initially the speed limit is set for 35 MPH. They conduct the study and determine that most people drive 40 MPH on that street so they up the speed limit to 40 MPH. Guess what? Shortly thereafter they determine most people now drive 45 MPH on that street.
I get the impression you're drawing the conclusion that people will driver 150+ mph if you set the posted limit to 150mph. This is definitely not the case. Reason #1 is that my car won't do 150 mph.

There are many other reasonable conclusions, such as 35 mph was way too low in the first place and they need to iterate further until they find a "boiling point".

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I did and that video doesn't have anything to do with what I'm saying. I'm in full agreement that speed limits shouldn't be based on revenue generation. They should be based on engineering.
Agree. And now let's address your road quality problem.

Let's start with a state law. Maybe make it a national law at some point but let's start with a state one for now. It goes something like this:

1. All interstate roads are intended to have a minimum speed limit of 60 mph. For any interstate roads with a speed limit under 60 mph, ALL income from speed limit enforcement (from the smallest hovel to the largest city) must be spent on improving the road quality. Any "excess" funds (i.e. aren't needed to improve those roads) will go directly to the Interstate Highway Budget.

2. Any resident of the state can request that any interstate road with a speed limit below 60 mph be considered for an increased speed limit to at least 60 mph. In response to this, within 30 days the state will spend IHB funds from #1 to research whether the road meets the requirements for the increase. If the road does not meet the requirements, the road will be added to the IHB "roads that need some love" RTNSL list.

3. The RTNSL list will be reviewed quarterly, sorted, and IHB funds -- where not allocated for #2 -- will be spent to improve these roads in the order listed.

4. Any RTNSL list entry that is not upgraded within 3 months will either (a) have the "exceeding the speed limit" fine set to $1 for a period of 3 months or (b) be downgraded from "interstate road" to "unmaintained road" status.

The result: "Speeders" pay for upgrading the roads. If the state doesn't use that money wisely and respond swiftly, the fines dry up until they get their act together. And no more local officials milking passerby vehicles for income.

(I'm not sure what 4b actually affects, but perhaps it impacts state funding in some way. The idea is that no area wants to have the road downgraded in this way.)
 
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lol

that's a novel idea...

Brianman, Jerry33, in regards to infrastructure, I tried to google some info but I couldn't find anything related to how roads are constructed differently in those countries with higher speed limits than those with lower (like Canada)...also couldn't find anything on how the designs are different/engineering from country to country....or data that correlates with mortalities/accidents
 
Tolerance (no ticket if only 10% over limit) allows Stops on Suspicion

Ask yourselves why the police tolerate 3/4s of drivers to exceed the posted speed limit.

Because that allows them to stop 3/4s of drivers on suspicion of other things. They have the perfect justification for stopping the car in the first place.

If the exact speed limit were enforced, no such opportunity for secondary findings. (Findings other than contraband would often be thrown out of court because the police had no reasonable cause for stopping the car.)
 
My favorite stretch of highway is a piece of US 412 in Oklahoma, from Tulsa over to Springdale, AR. It's a toll road in there, with a speed limit of 75, and a "no tolerance" addendum. It's curious - the traffic on that highway moves at about 74 or 75 mph, or maybe a bit slower for those not wanting to go that fast. Trucks frequently seem to go at 65 - I'm guessing the transportation companies have settled on that as a balance between time and resource efficiency.

Anyway, a clear standard (75 is fine, 76 is speeding), enforcement, and you get the hint pretty quickly when you're going 75 and nobody passes you, and you never catch anybody :)

Safe too. A reasonable speed limit for the road, correctly set, clear standards. Yup - I like that plenty. If only I didn't have to travel 2 time zones and half the country to find a stretch of highway like that.
 
Ask yourselves why the police tolerate 3/4s of drivers to exceed the posted speed limit.

Because that allows them to stop 3/4s of drivers on suspicion of other things. They have the perfect justification for stopping the car in the first place.

If the exact speed limit were enforced, no such opportunity for secondary findings. (Findings other than contraband would often be thrown out of court because the police had no reasonable cause for stopping the car.)

I'll have to agree with this. I got pulled over a couple of years ago for doing 10km over the speed limit late Friday night at 1:00 a.m. Basically, he was checking for drunk drivers. By going 10 over the limit he had a reason to pull me over. I got off with a $15 ticket.
(btw..10km = 6 miles ).
 
One of the problems with speed limits is that they should be based on engineering, and sometimes they are not.

Two important engineering items are:

1. Sight distance
2. Frequency of cars entering the roadway

Now take a typical city street with a 40 mph/60 km/h limit. This limit doesn't change between day and night (in most places), yet visibility is much better in the daytime. So is 40 mph too high during the night, or is it too low during the day?
 
One of the problems with speed limits is that they should be based on engineering, and sometimes they are not.

Two important engineering items are:

1. Sight distance
2. Frequency of cars entering the roadway

Now take a typical city street with a 40 mph/60 km/h limit. This limit doesn't change between day and night (in most places), yet visibility is much better in the daytime. So is 40 mph too high during the night, or is it too low during the day?
Note your 2nd criteria might be different at night than during the day as well.

On I-90, in some sections they have the lit signs that allow for a variable speed limit. While this is good for mountain passes where the conditions can vary dramatically, generally speaking I suspect it might be somewhat unsafe to have drivers distracted by the variability if such signs were used more often.
 
One of the problems with speed limits is that they should be based on engineering, and sometimes they are not.

Two important engineering items are:

1. Sight distance
2. Frequency of cars entering the roadway

Now take a typical city street with a 40 mph/60 km/h limit. This limit doesn't change between day and night (in most places), yet visibility is much better in the daytime. So is 40 mph too high during the night, or is it too low during the day?

The speed limit is set for optimal conditions, so it might be too high for nighttime driving. However, 40mph is not a problem for night. The limit based on headlights and human vision is about 50mph, or so it says in the Maine driver's handbook.
 
Note your 2nd criteria might be different at night than during the day as well.

Agreed, and of course, there's more than just those two criteria.

On I-90, in some sections they have the lit signs that allow for a variable speed limit. While this is good for mountain passes where the conditions can vary dramatically, generally speaking I suspect it might be somewhat unsafe to have drivers distracted by the variability if such signs were used more often.

Highways used to have a day and a night speed limit. Maybe they still do in some places. I agree that the variability of signs might be worse than the disease--and there would need to be many more signs than there are now. In an ideal world the speed limit would be set for good daytime conditions with the understanding that drivers would slow down when conditions dictate (night, rain, snow, fog, etc.) However it's not an ideal world.

Probably the best technical solution would be to have the speed limits pushed to the car and displayed on the dash. Not only would it keep the driver informed but it would be safer as there would be no sign posts to hit. There is a good possibility it would be less expensive than maintaining all those street signs--and you could even switch them to metric at no cost.
 
I'm not sure what to make of the rational that allowing the speed limit the way it is and the police to "tolerate" 3/4 of the public to speed make sense.
For one, it would assume that either a majority of us are breaking the law in some other manner to only randomly get caught, or two like what the TSA does, we spend millions to screen for the small percentage of people doing other illegal activity. I would think to our right to refuse to "pop" the trunk would make it justifiable to allow a lower speed limit just to catch these random cases. Secondly, it would seem that the better use of a "traffic" officers activity is to monitor traffic and to have more serious crimes be focused on areas where the chance of success is higher.

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While the argument for engineering of the roads needs to be taken into account for the "speed limit". As has been shown in the video examples, the limit is most often set arbitrarily and set extremely low for the conditions.

While the road needs to be taken into account, drivers education, advancements in car safety (farther reaching lights, automatic collision avoidance, night vision) all makes the "limit" so arbitrary that picking it based on road engineering seems the smallest piece of the pie.

Also, 85% of the drivers end up driving the safe speed already. Instead of setting an arbitrary number, pick that number that encompasses that 85% and enforce the "limit" on those over that.