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Ugh. Another Model S fire - 2013-11-06
- Thread starter tommolog
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- Driving Dynamics fire Model S
Good grief, the gif clip of the wood flying into the windshield was scary, but to see it copied 3-4 times in the thread, and replayed umpteen times, well that just does it. My new car:
High road clearance? Check.
Able to handle trailer hitches? No problem.
Steel armor instead of windows? Check.
Laser cannon mounted in roof turret for any random situations? Check.
High road clearance? Check.
Able to handle trailer hitches? No problem.
Steel armor instead of windows? Check.
Laser cannon mounted in roof turret for any random situations? Check.
Erleichda
Member
Add me to the list of "hit metal debris in highway"
Actually my wife. Said it came out of nowhere, wondered if it was being hit by other cars and bouncing across the lanes. It was a sheetmetal box or something, got very mangled under the car against the wheel well. Had to jack the car up at the side of the road to get it out, then took to have a look and saw scrapes but no other damage.
I realize the conspiracy theorists are usually wacko. I'm not one. Usually. But...here it is:
1. Billions upon billions of dollars are hanging in a lurch for the oil industry (who can create wars, win elected offices...), auto industry and unions. You seriously don't think they would take desperate measures to preserve their profits????
2. These companies admit to having bought and disassembled the Model S. I'm sure they are curious. But isn't that also how you would identify a weakness?
3. They know the weakness: battery fires. Not likely to happen but there is a way. Get metal debris under there. I've almost never, ever seen metal debris in the highway and I'm not a young man anymore. Seriously, when have you seen METAL. Old tire, random other stuff but not metal.
4. IF I knew of a weakness and needed to preserve my multibillion dollar businesses I would consider that new about battery fires would be exactly the thing to slow or stop the Tesla juggernaut.
5. IF I wanted to create fires, I would do so on the highways where speed helps.
6. I would have my not so nice helpers hang-out near on-ramps near the highways that are near the cities. It might take a few weeks or months, but eventually you'd see a tesla on the highway. Get on highway and pass it. Metal placed in front. Occasionally you get a hit.
It's Improvised Battery-fire devices.
Crazy? I'm not so sure. What would you do to protect billions of dollars?
Actually my wife. Said it came out of nowhere, wondered if it was being hit by other cars and bouncing across the lanes. It was a sheetmetal box or something, got very mangled under the car against the wheel well. Had to jack the car up at the side of the road to get it out, then took to have a look and saw scrapes but no other damage.
I realize the conspiracy theorists are usually wacko. I'm not one. Usually. But...here it is:
1. Billions upon billions of dollars are hanging in a lurch for the oil industry (who can create wars, win elected offices...), auto industry and unions. You seriously don't think they would take desperate measures to preserve their profits????
2. These companies admit to having bought and disassembled the Model S. I'm sure they are curious. But isn't that also how you would identify a weakness?
3. They know the weakness: battery fires. Not likely to happen but there is a way. Get metal debris under there. I've almost never, ever seen metal debris in the highway and I'm not a young man anymore. Seriously, when have you seen METAL. Old tire, random other stuff but not metal.
4. IF I knew of a weakness and needed to preserve my multibillion dollar businesses I would consider that new about battery fires would be exactly the thing to slow or stop the Tesla juggernaut.
5. IF I wanted to create fires, I would do so on the highways where speed helps.
6. I would have my not so nice helpers hang-out near on-ramps near the highways that are near the cities. It might take a few weeks or months, but eventually you'd see a tesla on the highway. Get on highway and pass it. Metal placed in front. Occasionally you get a hit.
It's Improvised Battery-fire devices.
Crazy? I'm not so sure. What would you do to protect billions of dollars?
Even better, play up the PR & do a bait-and-switch - teslafires.com with pictures of Tesla accidents not on fire and captions to that effect
I don't think we should push the no deaths/no permanent injuries thing, because that really is only a matter of time before it happens, and it will backfire when it does happen because then everyone will be quick to point out how someone was "killed by an electric car" (seriously though, even jellyfish kill more people than Teslas do). Chances are someone will puncture the battery, slide into a ditch, get knocked out, and get burned up. Horrible to imagine, but our record will only stand for so long. Even if someone has a heart attack while in the car and dies, the media headline will be "Man dies in Tesla" without distinction. You kind of have to pick your battles. It was the same deal if you were into Deloreans back in the day, and even now - part of ownership is rolling with the "where do you hide the coke?" jokes on a regular basis
Even better, play up the PR & do a bait-and-switch - teslafires.com with pictures of Tesla accidents not on fire and captions to that effect
I don't think we should push the no deaths/no permanent injuries thing, because that really is only a matter of time before it happens, and it will backfire when it does happen because then everyone will be quick to point out how someone was "killed by an electric car" (seriously though, even jellyfish kill more people than Teslas do). Chances are someone will puncture the battery, slide into a ditch, get knocked out, and get burned up. Horrible to imagine, but our record will only stand for so long. Even if someone has a heart attack while in the car and dies, the media headline will be "Man dies in Tesla" without distinction. You kind of have to pick your battles. It was the same deal if you were into Deloreans back in the day, and even now - part of ownership is rolling with the "where do you hide the coke?" jokes on a regular basis
Good points on the "no deaths" narrative. We can stick to just "Teslas that have crashed but not burned." I'm not so sure teslafires.com is a good way to go, though. Unless perhaps the tagline is something like, "Oh, wait, they're not on fire." ?
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I'd like to point out for the nth time the gas tank is not the only target. The oil pan and transmission pans as well as any fuel or coolant lines are even bigger risks (esp. any in ones near the exhaust). Most of the debris related fires I have seen reported for ICE cars involve fluid leaking onto the hot exhaust and catching fire.
But I agree with the idea that Tesla should just do something as a PR move. The risk there is that there may be another puncture after that and then Tesla's reputation would be even worse (and I maintain it's unlikely there's any fix that can prevent all debris punctures unless they went with military spec shielding, which is unrealistic due to weight).
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tdelta1000
Active Member
Agree with this completely. The Model S may or may not have an Achilles' Heel w.r.t. protection for the battery pack from road debris. Color me overly dramatic, but, for the sake of keeping Tesla's momentum going - if not for pure survival - it behooves Tesla to do something about protecting the pack further. The NHTSA crash tests did not obviously include anything that hit the battery pack from the bottom directly and all side/front crash tests were dealt with successfully courtesy the steel frame for the pack.
In my conversations with folks (some understanding ones and others not) about the car now, some of the smugness is gone
I'm watching the road like a hawk now to avoid any debris, big or small, having run over a narrow but long piece of wood with my right wheels right around the time of the Kent, WA fire. As an owner and a stockholder, I'd feel comforted by positive action by Tesla; all the statistics and comparisons with ICEs dealing with road debris may be beside the point at this stage.
Hey gg_got_a_tesla thanks for supporting the idea of offering up solutions. To a point of yours... the ICE manufactures also do not crash test their fuel tanks so why would their be so much hoopla?!?!?!. People let us all help to improve the product so that the we all can have safer vehicles.
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MG has a novel solution:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51584vty94L._SY300_.jpg
New option as part of the Tesla winter package??
LOL but on a serious note that would add to much and decrease range. Well maybe a carbon fiber version would work better.
Ah, I see you're interested in the 2014 Acura RDX in limited-edition forest green with the winter tire package :biggrin:
NigelM
Recovering Member
Collecting photos of crashed cars from a single brand in in one place is never going to look good, regardless of which marque it is. All folks will see is crashed cars out of context.
I think the other thing worth noting over and over again is that, in this case, we are NOT (apparently) talking about spontaneous fires. There are many, many, MANY conventional cars that cannot make that claim.
Like the BMWs that spontaneously combust, sometimes burning down peoples' houses?
http://bmwproblems.wordpress.com/
Or, here:
http://jalopnik.com/bmw-sparks-airport-garage-fire-that-destroys-8-cars-bu-486372168
Or what about the 8.7 million cars that Ford recalled over fire risks stemming from the ignition switch?
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/19...n-switches-switch-fires-million-ford-vehicles
In fact, Jalopnik has a Car-B-Que tag that brings up a whole list of stories about Jaguars, Lamborghinis, Lincolns, BMWs, Audis, and even Spykers going up in flames:
http://jalopnik.com/tag/car-fires
EDIT: And, jeez, talk about tragedies--I don't think I'd heard that the cause of that Lincoln limo fire in SF was faulty air springs and a gas tank fire.
http://jalopnik.com/limo-fire-that-killed-bride-and-four-friends-given-mech-511694644
I personally feel that the best way to improve Tesla PR is first to grab the bull by the horns and admit that in light of these accidents, there appears to be a way to make the safest car in the world even safer. road debris is hard to avoid and however slight the chance to any one individual, these accidents reveal a potential for future fires... we don't need any more fires! We need to urge Tesla to reduce the risk, that will help PR, just the way GM's handling of the Volt fire made it a non-issue. This won't go away by wishing it away.
I have no idea how many reported or unreported fires there have been for the Leaf or Volt, but for now let's assume that number is zero.
"3 more" != "far more"
Exactly. People commit more serious crimes for a few hundred bucks. When the oil industry, auto parts industry, dealers, current automakers(who are fighting EV's tooth and nail), oil change places and many more have their entire business model on the line, a few orchestrated instances like this are basically a freebie to try and stop the opponent.
I am not "calling" these specific collisions driver error by any means, I am bringing up the concept of driver error/skills/decision-making as relevant to this discussion. I started with the notion that it is unreasonable to expect any passenger car to impact heavy metal objects at high speed without sustaining serious damage, fires or no fires.
The two statements you reference are not mutually exclusive. Note that I said "in the course of normal driving," which is to say if you are driving on a highway in broad daylight and there is a stationary large metal object like a tow hitch in the road, (or even one that falls off a car in front of you) you should in many circumstances be able to avoid it if you are maintaining sufficient vigilance and following distance as appropriate. Not in every case, but many.
For example, if the axle of an 18-wheeler trailer snaps in the lane next to you and pieces of the back of the trailer come flying at you, that is not "in the course of normal driving." This happened to me, and I literally timed my acceleration to drive underneath the ballistic arc of a flying 18-wheeler wheel to safety given that cars were next to and behind me, but it could have been different and I could be dead regardless of my safety precautions / decision-making / driver skill. So, I recognize that there are many collisions no driver could be reasonably expected to avoid.
But there are many, many more collisions that could have been prevented with proper driving decisions. These Tesla incidents may or may not be among them, but the notion that this or any car should be impervious to damage when colliding with heavy objects is not reasonable.
wcalvin
Member
Protecting the battery from road debris
I started a new topic on protecting the battery from road debris. This photo shows the basic idea:
I started a new topic on protecting the battery from road debris. This photo shows the basic idea:
I agree with what many have said here: not enough information to draw conclusions re any inherent "flaws", and in the grand scheme of vehicle fires, these are nothing. These are a story because EVs are unfamiliar to the general public (recall the media storm after the NHTSA Volt fire), and the Model S is the most iconic EV of this generation. The fires have been photogenic and anything Tesla is additionally sensational. But stakeholders have always anticipated some fires in EVs by virtue of their mass, energy storage, and realities of turning humans loose in heavy machinery. To some degree, these are to be expected.
Most importantly, everyone walked away...and immediately wanted not only another EV, but another Model S. At the same time, this is now firmly a PR issue and Tesla needs to do something whether legally required or not. I too, am confident they will.
It will be interesting to see if and how much incident #3 mirrors #1. One of the observations I made after #1 was the extent to which the vehicle continued functioning, and the driver therefore was able to get off the road and out of the car. It's possible that continued operation with a damaged pack contributed to the eventual fire; I don't know how much Tesla's pack design is able to isolate damaged areas and still function. The fire-causing Volt wreck was obviously not in a road setting (so no opp for continued operation even if the car could have), but the fire itself took weeks after the crash to manifest. So if we accept (and for now, I do) that there will be some EV fires for various reasons, I'm encouraged that we're seeing these delays between vehicle damage and fire. In addition to there being fewer fires in EVs based on deployment to date, this is a potentially life-saving factor of the technology that is worth noting.
And I did have to appreciate the ironic timing of being drawn by smell to my window at 2am last night, only to see this in front of my house, with no obvious cause:
There was even a Model S parked rather uneventfully a couple spaces behind it.
Most importantly, everyone walked away...and immediately wanted not only another EV, but another Model S. At the same time, this is now firmly a PR issue and Tesla needs to do something whether legally required or not. I too, am confident they will.
It will be interesting to see if and how much incident #3 mirrors #1. One of the observations I made after #1 was the extent to which the vehicle continued functioning, and the driver therefore was able to get off the road and out of the car. It's possible that continued operation with a damaged pack contributed to the eventual fire; I don't know how much Tesla's pack design is able to isolate damaged areas and still function. The fire-causing Volt wreck was obviously not in a road setting (so no opp for continued operation even if the car could have), but the fire itself took weeks after the crash to manifest. So if we accept (and for now, I do) that there will be some EV fires for various reasons, I'm encouraged that we're seeing these delays between vehicle damage and fire. In addition to there being fewer fires in EVs based on deployment to date, this is a potentially life-saving factor of the technology that is worth noting.
And I did have to appreciate the ironic timing of being drawn by smell to my window at 2am last night, only to see this in front of my house, with no obvious cause:
There was even a Model S parked rather uneventfully a couple spaces behind it.
Previously, I (somewhat) understood people committing small crimes like theft or muggings for their next drug fix, but I always had a hard time imaging it on a larger scale outside of Hollywood movies. Then I started working in the corporate world and learned just how very real things like corporate espionage can be. It's scary what people will do when there's money & power involved. Really scary.
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