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Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

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Can we just lock this thread?
Enough with the lock drama. If you want to start a thread on that theory, feel free to. You're off-topic.

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Belief is basis of religion and this is what this thread is about - religious war on tesla.
Factually incorrect.

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Going forward, Tesla may be giving away fodder for attacks by releasing detailed specs that masses are not trained to understand.
Childish, condescending, and counterproductive for TMC and for Tesla.

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It would be interesting to see a wiki put together that tries to best summarize what is the current set of known facts and timeline
I asked for these about 100 posts ago in this or another thread. Nobody picked up the baton. :(
 
Are you talking about the guy driving in clown shoes?

He "simulated" Tesla roadster stopping on the track, with a dead battery, and pushed out by hand. That was a great shot, except that the car did not have dead battery - it was faked. Tesla later sued Top Gear, but the British courts did not find that Top Gear was at fault because Top Gear is an entertainment show and is allowed artistic freedom to fake reality to make a point (sounds familiar, isn't it?)

I am not sure what "facts" were you able to extract from this video.

If you have followed Top gear you would know that they have been anti electric (hence the Tesla Roadster incident which Tesla pursued both publicly and legally (strange then that they never pursued the complete automotive press that have quoted wrong inflated HP numbers....)) and that the video of electric AMG wins over the Black (and arguably are over a minute faster round the ring) I trust it much more than your anecdotal estimated quarter mile number...
 
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You must be new here. Nothing ever dies on this forum. Ever.

(I was going to give an example or two, but realized when I pulled those threads up that people would probably start commenting on them again. Not giving them the air time!)

I don't have any such reservations.

Does your Model S have a 90 kW charging limit at superchargers?
Have you been able to get the Premium Console with more than just black plastic?
1,000 signature US + 200 signature CA, or 1,200 signature NA... is there a difference?
How come I don't have the metal pedals ?!!!

Among many others... and that's not even going back to Roadster days. :)
 
Contrdictory facts are ignored again and again.
I didn't actually look at the video, but seeing it now, I see some major inconsistencies. The SLS e-cell is speced at 0-100 kph in 3.9 seconds, SLS AMG Black is speced at 0-100kph in 3.6 seconds. That means the Black should be first off the line (or should pass it at a certain point early in the race). But the video clearly shows the the E-Cell was first. The other factor is that reaction time is not accounted for (unlike at a drag strip). No way to tell from video what the respective ETs of the cars are. I don't have audio at the moment, so not even sure if it was a 1/4 mile race.

Top Gear also usually shows some shots of the speedo during the race, but this time there wasn't any, so can't even see a rough idea of what speeds they reached.
 
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Yes.
Belief is basis of religion and this is what this thread is about - religious war on tesla.

I have only seen self-appointed “crusaders” on the Tesla can newer do anything wrong camp...

I like others think crusaders like that will sink Tesla with warped view of what a costumer would and should understand. If Tesla wants to go big time they need to under promise and over deliver (like they have done from time to time earlier) or else the mainstream customer will be disappointed and the model 3 will flop.

And then it is by-by Tesla unfortunately…
 
Phrasing such as "masses are not trained to understand" is insulting on multiple levels.
Technical description is never insulting.
If people understood the writing, this thread would not exist.
So, are they just stupid or not sufficiently trained to understand?

But we already know you and I are not here to learn anything new, it is same over and over and over again.
Religious war by definition.

Who will benefit?
 
Technical description is never insulting.
If people understood the writing, this thread would not exist.
So, are they just stupid or not sufficiently trained to understand?

Who will benefit?
By your description, Elon (and Tesla representatives in stores) stating publicly on multiple occasions "691hp" with no motor qualifier implies that Elon (and those representatives) is (are) not "trained to understand" that there is a significant difference from the technical description on the web site.

In contrast, I don't think Elon is "just stupid" or "not sufficiently trained to understand" -- which is why this is a problem.
But we already know you and I are not here to learn anything new, it is same over and over and over again.
Religious war by definition.
I think we define "religious war" quite differently.

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It would be interesting to see a wiki put together that tries to best summarize what is the current set of known facts and timeline
I asked for these about 100 posts ago in this or another thread. Nobody picked up the baton. :(
If anyone wants a wiki please let the folks who are heavily invested in this know as I believe we'd really get to the sticky sweat meat of the issue(s) and less misunderstanding IMHO
I'd love to see Andy, 1TMC member of "the Danes", stopcrazypp, and a maybe a couple other posters that have tried to constructively discuss the issue to get together to write that Wiki page. The goal would be to capture the current "TMC understanding" of the history and the current state of affairs in a polite collaborate fashion. I have faith it can be done in less than a week -- as long as the "fellowship" doing it is 5 people or less and they aren't interrupted by the rest of us.

If they can manage to do it in less than three weeks, I'll buy them all lunch at the next Connect.
 
BTW, P85DEE dug out a reference to the MB SLS Electric 1/4 mile test done by C/D. They clocked it at 12.5 seconds, which is the same time as for P85D. MB SLS Electric weighs 263 lbs less than P85D.

It should be obvious now for everybody (I never doubted it) that MB stated motor hp in exactly the same way as Tesla, summing up four motors (751 motor hp). They also mentioned 600kW "potential" output from the battery, but as evident from the 0 to 60 and 1/4 mile times the battery limits motor output to significantly less than 751hp.

Otherwise one has to assume that MB does not know how to build cars if a two seat purpose built sports car with 751hp from the storied manufacturer with 89 years of experience can't beat 5+2 family sedan built by a newcomer, that is 263lbs heavier and has 691 motor hp, limited by the battery output to 463hp.


That's Estimated. They did not test the 1/4 mile time. Top Gear did and it killed the 11.2 second black in a side by side 1/4 mile race. The fact that the 0-60 is slower than the P85D due to software limiting only means it has to make even more power up top to compensate.

Why are they adding the motor powers and stating that as peak horsepower? Because the motors are the limiting factor, not the battery.


At 13:15 in this video, they talk about 1/3 of the horsepower being available with one of the three battery modules implying that the battery can produce at least the stated horsepower by itself.

The 3 modules total 864 cells that are *much* larger than the 7000+ 18650's found in the Tesla battery. I'd like to see some proof or almost proof that this battery can't produce the power.

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I am not sure what "facts" were you able to extract from this video.

Facts:

1) The SLS AMG Electric is faster than the AMG Black in the 1/4 mile.
2) The SLS AMG Black is an 11.2 second car.
3) It's faster at low speeds and especially higher speeds in the 1/4 mile.
4) It's 4800 lbs compared to the Black's 3400 lbs (1400 lb difference but still killed at higher speed by Electric).

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I didn't actually look at the video, but seeing it now, I see some major inconsistencies. The SLS e-cell is speced at 0-100 kph in 3.9 seconds, SLS AMG Black is speced at 0-100kph in 3.6 seconds. That means the Black should be first off the line (or should pass it at a certain point early in the race). But the video clearly shows the the E-Cell was first. The other factor is that reaction time is not accounted for (unlike at a drag strip). No way to tell from video what the respective ETs of the cars are. I don't have audio at the moment, so not even sure if it was a 1/4 mile race.

Top Gear also usually shows some shots of the speedo during the race, but this time there wasn't any, so can't even see a rough idea of what speeds they reached.

I've seen 3.7 seconds too but that might be confused with the ICE version. But ICE cars are harder to get that perfect launch than EV's so it's not surprising the Electric had a *slight* edge coming out of the gate. HOwever, as the race progresses, the Electric continues to put distance pretty much all speeds, all the while weighing 1400 lbs more than the Black. Pretty darned incredible actually.

Also, when you watch this car in other videos around tracks and see just how easily it breaks traction at high speeds, it's clear this is in another ballpark of performance compared to the P85D.

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If anyone wants a wiki please let the folks who are heavily invested in this know as I believe we'd really get to the sticky sweat meat of the issue(s) and less misunderstanding IMHO

That will spark wiki wars with competing wiki's popping up because everyone will be trying to edit the same wiki.

A wiki needs to be only factual and not present right or wrong or intent but I just don't see that happening.
 
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I view things the same way actually (that you can have a factually true statement, have no intent to mislead, still have it be misleading to people), but I am saying a good portion of people on this thread does not. They view the two as directly connected, so that drives their whole argument (and thus refusal to acknowledge certain points from the "other side"). Basically the view from one side that 691hp is a "fake" rating and only the 463hp is the true rating, then another side believes both are "true" ratings and given it is true, Tesla has no fault advertising one or the other. The legitimacy/prevalence of advertising using a standard that reflects power at a component level versus a vehicle level is also another discussion that drives this.

Its pretty clear to me at least test the 691 figure is not fake in what it represents, the problem is that what it represents is not what people expected it to. Hence that's why I've trying to break the argument down to constituent parts so people actually know what they're arguing about.

its not worked.

It now seems from some quarters that what was originally a defence that tesla had done no wrong is now an argument that merc were worse as if that makes it ok. And I'm not even sure the merc sls e thing is available to buy other than by a very niche group so it's hardly the same consumer issue.
 
I didn't actually look at the video, but seeing it now, I see some major inconsistencies. The SLS e-cell is speced at 0-100 kph in 3.9 seconds, SLS AMG Black is speced at 0-100kph in 3.6 seconds. That means the Black should be first off the line (or should pass it at a certain point early in the race). But the video clearly shows the the E-Cell was first. The other factor is that reaction time is not accounted for (unlike at a drag strip). No way to tell from video what the respective ETs of the cars are. I don't have audio at the moment, so not even sure if it was a 1/4 mile race.

Top Gear also usually shows some shots of the speedo during the race, but this time there wasn't any, so can't even see a rough idea of what speeds they reached.

I have been unable to find any official quarter mile times for the SLS AMG Electric Drive.

Have also not been able to find any 0-100mph times either. Nor 0-150mph times

With that, it is impossible to tell much about how the car actually performs.

But you are right about that Top Gear video, it is quite suspect.
 
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I have been unable to find any official quarter mile times for the SLS AMG Electric Drive.

Have also not ben able to find any 0-100mph times either. Nor 0-150mph times

With that, it is impossible to tell much about how the car actually performs.

But you are right about that Top Gear video, it is quite suspect.

The reviews say it was not for sale at all in the US. The only cars that appear to be in any hands ever are a few review units. I'm not convinced that a unit ever made it to a single customer's hands. There are no references in any forums anywhere from a single owner of this car. It's not surprising that there are no actual 1/4 timed tests.
 
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The reviews say it was not for sale at all in the US. The only cars that appear to be in any hands ever a few review units. I'm not convinced that a unit ever made it to a single customer's hands. There are no references in any forums anywhere from a single owner of this car. It's not surprising that there are no actual 1/4 timed tests.

As you mention it, I'm not sure if any of these cars have made it into a customer's hands either. I can't even find verification that Leno even owns one.

Sort of like the Rimac Concept One

1,088 horsepower. 4 motors. They supposedly have manufactured and sold 8 cars. 3,600 lbs, 0-60 is said to be in 2.8 seconds

Rimac - Electric Concept One Super Car 1088hp - YouTube

Introduction to Concept_One - Rimac Automobili

Rimac Concept One - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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thus my comments about unicorns.....
Can we get back to beating the P85D/P90DL horse? You know, the one with 691 _____ horsepower, or not.


Perhaps Tesla should build a super high discharge rate battery as a one or two off then stuff them in a P85D to make use of those around 700 hp worth of motors.
 
thus my comments about unicorns.....
Can we get back to beating the P85D/P90DL horse? You know, the one with 691 _____ horsepower, or not.


Too funny :)

Perhaps Tesla should build a super high discharge rate battery as a one or two off then stuff them in a P85D to make use of those around 700 hp worth of motors.

I think they did and MT got their hands on it (10.9 second).
 
thus my comments about unicorns.....
Can we get back to beating the P85D/P90DL horse? You know, the one with 691 _____ horsepower, or not.

Yeah, we've now covered unicorns, goats, .......you're right, time to get back to horses.:biggrin:

You still in for the P85D Ludicrous upgrade? That ought to be good to get us a few more horses. And at 5 grand, well one would be hard pressed to buy even one good horse these days for that kind of money.