Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[sillydriver]

There are some very well written and compelling posts of late. Every time I start to think ok, I can go along with this or that point, I get a recurring nagging sensation.

No matter how deep I look into the technical side I can not get over the idea that the P85D is the equivalent of a 691 hp ICE with a fuel pump in the car that can only deliver high 400s of fuel. If MB tried to say "but the regs say we have to spec our engine with the hp it produces on the dyno with a much bigger fuel pump so it's ok to promote 691 even though we know you will only ever get around 500 in the car", they would get slaughtered.

The idea that the P85D can put a tremendous amount of power to the road early in an acceleration run has no real bearing on the issue above.

I must admit the fuel pump analogy is a good one.

 

[P85DEE]

I suggest looking at the information MB has on their Site regarding the MB SLS electric drive. They list specs in a way similar to Tesla, i.e. adding motor hp of four motors. The total exceeds the power that can be afforded by the 60kWh battery. They list battery as having "potential" electric output of 600kW, but at 10C it is a fraction of a second rating, with actual output less than power called for by the four motor at their max power output. I imagine that the word "potential" they used to describe the battery power rating would have been considered by unhappy P85D owners much more dodgy than what Tesla did.

We must have been posting at around the same time. I added a couple of links to my post above.

But yes, the MB situation reminds me a lot of the P85D discussion in here.

 

[lolachampcar]

I suspected I'd hear the SLS argument but I consided that a "my unicorn does not have tears" point so I did not mention it. Very few will ever see that car, let alone complain about it.

The more likely scenario is someone with a performance ICE, or someone wanting to move to the performance of a performance ICE, would have considered the P85D. It is from the eyes of these buyers that we must view Tesla's pitch.

I had to make a conscious effort at the start of these discussions to remove my "yea but I know the battery can not do that" filter. I may know that but not everyone has three years of experience with MS across multiple variants. I see it as sophisticated investors being held to a different standard.

doing this from an iPad sucks. Sorry for all the typos.

 

[Kalllagtunet]

I suggest looking at the information MB has on their Site regarding the MB SLS electric drive. They list specs in a way similar to Tesla, i.e. adding motor hp of four motors. The total exceeds the power that can be afforded by the 60kWh battery. They list battery as having "potential" electric output of 600kW, but at 10C it is a fraction of a second rating, with actual output less than power called for by the four motor at their max power output. I imagine that the word "potential" they used to describe the battery power rating would have been considered by unhappy P85D owners much more dodgy than what Tesla did.

The SLS AMG Coupe Electric Drive absolutely kills the P85D round the ring...

http://www.topgear.com/car-news/motorsport/electric-sls-sets-new-nurburgring-record

So the power is avalible for more than the fraction of the second you falsely state.

Tesla P85D lap...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphw4km60m4

 

[P85DEE]

I suspected I'd hear the SLS argument but I consided that a "my unicorn does not have tears" point so I did not mention it. Very few will ever see that car, let alone complain about it.

The more likely scenario is someone with a performance ICE, or someone wanting to move to the performance of a performance ICE, would have considered the P85D. It is from the eyes of these buyers that we must view Tesla's pitch.

I had to make a conscious effort at the start of these discussions to remove my "yea but I know the battery can not do tha" filter. I may know that but not everyone has three years of experience with MS across multiple variants. I see it as sophisticated investors being held to a different standard.

doing this from an iPad sucks. Sorry for all the typos.

Believe me. Doing it from an iPhone sucks even worse.

I'd only point to the Mercedes in demonstrating that what Tesla has done is not deceitful.

Sure, not many can afford the Nercrdes. But think there is a bigger point here if to be made to those who would accuse tesla of underhanded practices.

 

[lolachampcar]

I have a goat farm
i sleep with my goats
the goats like it
my neighbors do not seem to mind
ive been doing it for years as have other farmers

sleeping with goats must be ok

i try not to use others as an absolute reference least I end up sleeping with goats.

 

[P85DEE]

The SLS AMG Coupe Electric Drive absolutely kills the P85D round the ring...

http://www.topgear.com/car-news/motorsport/electric-sls-sets-new-nurburgring-record


Tesla P85D lap...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphw4km60m4

It also costs about 3 times what a P85D sells for. Maybe they figured a better way to manage heat problems associated with road course duty in EVs, I don't know.

I'm wondering why it's quarter mile time though, is on par with that of an 85D?

Thats the big question to me.

- - - Updated - - -

I have a goat farm
i sleep with my goats
the goats like it
my neighbors do not seem to mind
ive been doing it for years as have other farmers

sleeping with goats must be ok

i try not to use others as an absolute reference least I end up sleeping with goats.

Nice, let me give that method a shot:

I have a beautiful wife
I sleep with my wife
My wife likes it
My neighbors do not seem to mind
I've been doing it for years, as have other husbands

sleeping with my wife must be ok

I try not to exclude others as an absolute reference, lest I end up not sleeping with my wife.

On a serious note, I don't see what sleeping with goats or wives has to do with whether or not the Mercedes example is a one which can be used in helping to establish that what Tesla has done here, is not without peer and not inappropriate.

 

[lolachampcar]

Go back to the original example of MB doing it on something like a C63 (and not the halo SLS) and you will understand. mB would not permit such confusion on the C63.


put differently
SLS==goats
C63==wives

 

[P85DEE]

Go back to the original example of MB doing it on something like a C63 (and not the halo SLS) and you will understand. mB would not permit such confusion on the C63.


put differently
SLS==goats
C63==wives

An obvious question then comes up, and goes to the 0-60 brouhaha in here.

Why would Mercedes not rate the SLS in terms of "horsepower", the same way they rate the C63?

2015 AMG C63 Coupe | Mercedes-Benz

Don't you have a situation where people could argue that you have one car which may look to be more powerful vs the other than perhaps it is, and that a "different standard" of measurement applied to one car but not the other?

I look at your example, and I see the same thing that people in here are arguing about.

The only difference I see is that while different "models" of cars are being compared, they are the same makes. Mercedes.

But since Tesla only has two models on the road today, and all of their sedans are "Model S" just different trim levels, I think that's splitting hairs. I see it as a stretch to excuse a manufacturer of the same practice across different models, but not excuse another manufacturer for doing something similar across different trim levels.

The material fact remains, that MB is using one method for stating power for one of their vehicles, and another method for stating the power of one of their other vehicles in their lineup.

They don't appear to have done anything inappropriate or underhanded, or deceitful, in either case when it comes to their practices in describing either car.

 

[sandpiper]

Go back to the original example of MB doing it on something like a C63 (and not the halo SLS) and you will understand. mB would not permit such confusion on the C63.


put differently
SLS==goats
C63==wives

Okay.... with the goats/wives thing, this thread has finally officially jumped the shark and it's time for somebody to put it out of it's misery!

 

[vgrinshpun]

Go back to the original example of MB doing it on something like a C63 (and not the halo SLS) and you will understand. mB would not permit such confusion on the C63.

I think that the reason MB treated C63 and SLS electric drive specifications differently is not because the C63 is real car, while SLS electric drive is halo car as you put it, but because C63 is an ICE car, while SLS electric drive is an EV.
I’ve mentioned this on a couple of accasions in the past: comparing ICE car to an EV, or treating EV specs with an ICE based set of mind is analogous to trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

 

[P85DEE]

I think that the reason MB treated C63 and SLS electric drive specifications differently is not because the C63 is real car, while SLS electric drive is halo car as you put it, but because C63 is and ICE car, while SLS electric drive is an EV.
I’ve mentioned this on a couple of accasions in the past: comparing ICE car to an EV, or treating EV specs with an ICE based set of mind is analogous to trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I'm glad to see this square peg, round hole analogy.

 

[sorka]

Believe me. Doing it from an iPhone sucks even worse.

I'd only point to the Mercedes in demonstrating that what Tesla has done is not deceitful.

Sure, not many can afford the Nercrdes. But think there is a bigger point here if to be made to those who would accuse tesla of underhanded practices.

I missed the earlier SLS discussions. What exactly is the maximum output of it's 60 kWh battery?

 

[P85DEE]

I missed the earlier SLS discussions. What exactly is the maximum output of it's 60 kWh battery?

I'm on my phone and trying to post up while working.

vgrinshpun can can probably tell you quicker than I can.

 

[vgrinshpun]

I missed the earlier SLS discussions. What exactly is the maximum output of it's 60 kWh battery?

MB claims 600kW "potential electric power"

BTW, I am also on iPhone, trying to get to quick posts while doing some work...

 

[sorka]

MB claims 600kW "potential electric power"

BTW, I am also on iPhone, trying to get to quick posts while doing some work...

The only reference I found, and I didn't dig deep, was on their website for the SLS electric where they claim 552 KW. I was just wondering how it is know that their battery can't provide that output? i.e. if we know they're using the same 18650 cells or similar, then the cell level fuses should be enough to know that they couldn't achieve the claimed battery output.

 

[rns-e]

MB claims 600kW "potential electric power"

BTW, I am also on iPhone, trying to get to quick posts while doing some work...

It is doing something different than the P85D

Electric SLS sets new Nurburgring record | Top Gear

 

[kennybobby]

This REST log:

Goes with this vbox chart:

Just in case you have any doubts about how closely battery power tracks motor power, not torque.

The REST chart is blockier because the sample rate is 4 hz vs the vbox's 20 hz.

That is very interesting, thanks for posting the companion charts. From these i find two observations:

1. The little blip in power at the peak is not an anomaly in the vbox data, but was a real effect as seen in both charts.

2. We can make an estimate of system efficiency at about 87% converting electrical input power to mechanical output power.

 

[Andyw2100]

This forum is open to anyone to come here and challenge anyone else's position and to say their piece, as long as they respect the forum rules.

It is not open, though, to people who wish to come here for the sole purpose of disrupting the forum through constant personal attacks and by posting so much drivel that it winds up driving other posters away.

I would not be surprised if Tesla's employees take a more (pro)active role in defending their business any way they can and anywhere they can.

Including misrepresenting themselves, and claiming to be Tesla owners? You'd find that acceptable?

A freedom to repetitively claim that Tesla shortchanged you is balanced with anyone else's freedom to come and challenge you or anyone else on this forum. No VIN or public identity are a requirement for contributing here.

I have never posted in a way that advocated for someone to be blacklisted by Tesla, as both you and P85DEE have done with respect to me. It is well-known that Tesla reads these threads. You clearly disagree with me on the issues. That's fine. State your disagreement. But when you cross the line into trying to actually do me harm, by doing what you can to have Tesla blacklist me for stating my views, in my opinion that's going too far. And that's taking advantage of the fact that I, unlike you, madam, (yes, unlike P85DEE, I have not missed the fact that you are not a "he", since you've been open about it) have chosen not to hide behind the anonymity of the internet. You say you like a level playing field, but you have no qualms about taking advantage of an unlevel field when you are able to do so.

Anyone is free to disagree with me.

It's one thing to disagree with someone. It's another thing entirely to try to do them harm. You and P85DEE are actually doing the latter because I've been trying to help myself and other P85D owners by advocating for what I think is right.

It seems to me that you are trying to bolster your personal position here by prematurely claiming support of others for a concerted effort to actually try to get news of this out to all P85D owners, and to the general public. Maybe you have the support of other owners to make a concerted effort to publicly drum up this issue much more, maybe you don't.

This was related to what is already going on overseas. News of that is going to build, and eventually be covered in US mainstream media.

Actions speak much louder than words.

Words: 'I have been an avid Tesla supporter in many ways.'


Actions, supportive - buying a car


Actions, not so supportive:


Writing a public letter to CEO that lacked factual evidence and actively soliciting support for the position that Tesla shortchanged you and others. Such public action/campaign had a potential to blow out of control and seriously damage Tesla. Mud sticks.

I've said this before, but perhaps you missed it, are choosing to ignore it, or don't believe it. (If you don't believe it, you can go back to the thread where I first stated that I would take on the responsibility of writing the letter, and read the posts being made for a day or so before that, and then I think you WILL believe it.)

I wrote the letter because I was hoping to prevent what is currently happening in Denmark and Norway. It was apparent that those owners were losing patience, and were planning on escalating things. Their posts didn't say that explicitly, but when people asked what they planned to do if Tesla did not respond to their second or third letter, the answers were along the lines of "we have some ideas." I correctly inferred from those answers that they were planning to go to the media, which they have now done. One of my goals, in writing the letter to Musk, was to try to prevent that.

I think it's very likely at least partially as a result of my letter, as well as the threads here, that Tesla has now clarified the information on their website with respect to both 1-foot roll out and horsepower. Do you not believe that is a good thing for future Tesla customers, and thus for Tesla?

With respect to my "conspiracy" posts that you chose to quote from, those were in direct response to a poster saying there was no evidence whatsoever of any possible conspiracy. Here is that complete conversation:

and there was no conspiracy whatsoever. There was misunderstanding of the specifications, which is not surprising for a new technology at all.

A misunderstanding that Tesla anticipated, started to do something about it to prevent it, and then decided not to. That sounds like there may be some conspiracy involved after all.

Conspiracy to do what?

Conspiracy to let the confusing information remain in place and keep confusing potential customers, to increase sales. The explanation they were working on would have prevented that.

Note that I did very clearly say "may be." The comment was only brought on by the other poster ruling out the possibility.

In your attempt to make me look as bad as you possibly can you dug up the worst thing you could find me saying about Tesla. If you have gone digging through my posts you know that I've said much more frequently that I don't necessarily believe there was any intent to deceive.

As for your assertion that my only supportive action was buying the car, I've got a bit to say on that as well. Actually quite a bit.

Yes, I did buy a car. In addition to that, let's take a look at what else I've done over the past year or so in support of Tesla and Tesla owners. Because one thing we do agree on is that actions do speak louder than words.

--I am largely responsible for the location of the new Binghamton, NY Supercharger.

All the details and history are explained and/or linked to in this thread:
Binghamton, NY Supercharger

But in a nutshell, I chose the location, made the initial contact with the business owner, selling him on the concept, and then spear-headed a campaign on TMC to get the Tesla supercharger team interested. I then also had a number of contacts with the person in charge on the supercharger team. The location geographically really couldn't be any better from a convenience standpoint to the three highways in the area. And the fact that the business is a diner means that Tesla owners needing a charge will be able to grab a quick, inexpensive bite to eat, or just some food to go or a cup of coffee, or even just use the restrooms between 5:00 AM and 11:00 PM seven days a week. I honestly don't think there could have been any location in Binghamton for a Supercharger that would be more beneficial to Tesla owners than the one I selected and then helped make happen.

--I was an active participant in the Pizza Party thread. My hand-written card was one of the cards Bonnie read at the event. My name is on the banner.

Let's say thanks: Pizza for the factory employees - Page 16
(The Andrew Bonnie refers to in the quote is andrewket, not me.)

I sent the following to Bonnie, hand-written on a thank-you card:

--
Saturday, December 20, 2014

Dear Tesla Employees,

As I write this early on a Saturday morning in December, the gorgeous Tesla Model S P85D you have built for me is getting close to completing its three-thousand mile journey east. It is spending today being freshened up at the service center in Mt. Kisco, NY, after its long, cross-country trip. Tomorrow it will be trucked just a couple of hundred miles before winding up in my garage in Ithaca, NY. I am incredibly excited, and very grateful, to all of you, for making this possible.

Eleven days ago this exceptional vehicle that I’ll be driving tomorrow was just thousands of pieces of metal and rubber and plastic and glass and whatever else you miraculously turn into the finest car the world has ever seen. Eleven weeks ago no one outside of Tesla had even heard of a P85D! You should all be very proud of yourselves!

By the time you are reading this, and, I’m sure, for many years to come, my wife Kim and I will be driving the safest car ever built. We’ll be enjoying every minute of it! Thank you very, very, much for everything you did to make this happen! Your work is really appreciated!

Sincerely and with much gratitude,

Andrew W.
VIN P64227

--I have written to various executives at Tesla on a number of topics with the goal of improving features for all Tesla owners. I'll include just some of the threads that include some of the correspondence. (This is not close to a complete list.)

Suggestion for battery pre-heating and charge-end scheduling sent to Tesla

Would you use battery heating if it were available? - Page 8

Question about usage of automatic folding mirrors - Page 2

Do P85Ds and S85Ds have inaccurate odometers that overstate distance traveled? - Page 4


--I have continuously posted to clear up misconceptions and misunderstandings about Autopilot functionality and usage in an attempt to keep Tesla drivers and others safe.

--I have organized three group buys, each of which took a fair amount of time.

Blackvue 650 (Dashcam) Group Buy for $310, including 32 Gig card and Power Magic Pro

Group Buy for FOBO Tire Plus - $30 or $50 off, plus free express shipping ($20 value)

Group Buy: Polarizer Filter(s) for Blackvue 650 Dashcam - 28% Off


--I have very frequently answered newbies' and others' questions here, as others have done for me.

--I have defended Tesla on TMC, when Tesla has been unfairly attacked.




I'd argue my actions pretty strongly indicate that I have been a Tesla supporter.

I believe Tesla has learned from the horsepower incident, and will be a better company in the future because of what they have learned. I'd like to think I played some small role in that.

And yes, I have been a vocal advocate for Tesla to "make things right" for those of us who feel that we were wronged in this. I understand that you disagree with me on that issue. There is much disagreement on the issue. I don't think my advocacy for a position you disagree with justifies you and others suggesting repeatedly that Tesla blacklist me. That's just going too far.

 

[sorka]

That is very interesting, thanks for posting the companion charts. From these i find two observations:

1. The little blip in power at the peak is not an anomaly in the vbox data, but was a real effect as seen in both charts.

2. We can make an estimate of system efficiency at about 87% converting electrical input power to mechanical output power.

It's a little hard to tell due to the fatness of the lines in the chart. I did the exact calculation from the logs here:

Playing around with VBOX Sport.... 0-60 times... - Page 2

which worked out to a little over 9%.