Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[sorka]

The 691 "motor hp" rating is important as it explains the difference in torque hence 0-40 mph improvement over 4xx hp motors.

The motor torque rating, which is very high, is enough to explain the 0-40 mph performance without saying the car is 691 hp. At least they're doing it the right way now.

- - - Updated - - -

No, it's not.

The upgrade when purchasing a new car costs $10,000. When announced, the upgrade for P85D owners was to be $5000 plus labor costs. Later it was offered on the website for $7500. Since then that price has been lowered to $5000, so if that is the complete price, and Tesla sticks with it, the price will be exactly half the cost of what new owners are paying for it, but not "certainly less than half."

Half the cost for not quite the same performance is the P90DL so really still more than half the cost.

- - - Updated - - -

It costs $13,000 to get ludicrous mode in a new car. So sure you get a little bit more range but it's not a huge amount.

But the range upgrade is $3K so that is the cost of the extra battery performance aside. You can get the range upgrade without getting Ludicrous, so $10K is the cost of the Ludicrous.

 

[P85DEE]

I'll tell you my answer.

Thanks. But I'm also interested in your other answer to my questions back here
Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L - Page 111

It's that the P85D owners who are affected by this are still willing to give Tesla the benefit of the doubt, and are expecting Tesla to make things right. We're exhibiting patience because we don't want to see Tesla hurt.

I've been looking at some of the talk in here Andy, and frankly, some of it gives me less than the feeling that "P85D owners who are affected by this" in here are willing to give anything remotely resembling the "benefit of the doubt"..

In fact, such an assessment is frankly laughable.

I'm hearing talk of Tesla deliberately using 0-60 times with rollout for the P85D and not for the other models, in an effort to make the P85D show a 0-60 performance benefit which was disingenuous vs the other models.

That doesn't sound like any "benefit of the doubt" to me.

Talk like that, doesn't seem like talk which would come from people who would not want to see Tesla "hurt".

Accusing Tesla of using the term "horsepower motor power" in a disingenuous manner, that doesn't sound like "benefit of the doubt" to me.

But I expect our collective patience is running out, as evidenced by what's going on in Denmark and Norway. When our patience does eventually run out, if and when we make a concerted effort to actually try to get news of this out to all P85D owners, and to the general public, I assure you the mainstream media will pick up on it.

You know Andy, if someone at Tesla were reading that above comment, it could be argued that they would be well within reason to perceive it as a threat.

There has been talk of the possibility that certain members/customers in here could end up being blacklisted, and in a position whereby Tesla would never sell them another vehicle. Well just one man's assessment one man's opinion, if that should happen, I don't see how you would not be at or near the head of the line, if it should come down to that.

I don't think I'll be the one leading that charge, because I'm not interested in seeing Tesla hurt, but someone will lead it, and it will not be a difficult fight to lead.

Well as per my opinion above, I don't think that at this point that it would matter much if you "lead the charge", as I think that you have quite possibly done more than enough to show up prominently on their radar if they should decide to part company with certain customers up the road. It's easier to burn a bridge than it is to build one.

If they do decide to blacklist a few people over this crap, then I'm thinking that they're probably liable to get very few, if any, before they get to you. I'm thinking that if you don't end up getting blacklisted, well there's no point in anyone else trying.

I would not want to attract their attention to the extent that you probably have, and under the circumstances which you have, if I were ever in my life interested in purchasing another vehicle from them in the future.

But it's all good Andy, however you never answered my question back here though:

You speak as though this is a forgone conclusion. And from there, you make a prediction on those people's reactions, indeed you make a prediction on their "happiness".

You might be getting a little bit too far ahead here, and thus "if" might be the better option here as opposed to "when", since a "pretty good portion" of owners may "never" get wind of this entire matter . And "if" they should, well then afterwards, well, neither you, nor I can make an accurate prediction as to "if" those people are still going to be "happy" or not.

It could well turn out that those people you describe above, are just as "happy" as they were before "if" they should find out what you describe. And your "expectations" may not be realized.

But we already knew that, right?

We also know that there are people right in here, possibly very many, if not even most, who are still quite happy with their P85D vehicles, after finding out what you point to above.

Which begs the question here Andy..........."Are you currently happy with your P85D, Andy?" And a simple "yes" or "no" will do.

So, are you Andy?

 

[AWDtsla]

But the range upgrade is $3K so that is the cost of the extra battery performance aside. You can get the range upgrade without getting Ludicrous, so $10K is the cost of the Ludicrous.

Funny, my bank account still sees $13,000 missing. Would I have gotten ludicrous without 90? We'll never know now will we. A new buyer does not have the choice you propose if they want ludicrous. The performance still has to proven, either way. The 6% range increase can just be taken as waiting for the right time to buy, they've been at the same energy density for ~4 years now and we know cell chemistry has been improving the whole time.

 

[Andyw2100]

Thanks. But I'm also interested in your other answer to my questions back here
Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L - Page 111



I've been looking at some of the talk in here Andy, and frankly, some of it gives me less than the feeling that "P85D owners who are affected by this" in here are willing to give anything remotely resembling the "benefit of the doubt"..

In fact, such an assessment is frankly laughable.

I'm hearing talk of Tesla deliberately using 0-60 times with rollout for the P85D and not for the other models, in an effort to make the P85D show a 0-60 performance benefit which was disingenuous vs the other models.

That doesn't sound like any "benefit of the doubt" to me.

Talk like that, doesn't seem like talk which would come from people who would not want to see Tesla "hurt".

Accusing Tesla of using the term "horsepower motor power" in a disingenuous manner, that doesn't sound like "benefit of the doubt" to me the ,



You know Andy, if someone at Tesla were reading that above comment, it could be argued that they would be well within reason to perceive it as a threat.

There has been talk of the possibility that certain members/customers in here could end up being blacklisted, and in a position whereby Tesla would never sell them another vehicle. Well just one man's assessment one man's opinion, if that should happen, I don't see how you would not be at or near the head of the line, if it should come down to that.



Well as per my opinion above, I don't think that at this point that it would matter much if you "lead the charge", as I think that you have quite possibly done more than enough to show up prominently on their radar if they should decide to part company with certain customers up the road. It's easier to burn a bridge than it is to build one.

If they do decide to blacklist a few people over this crap, then I'm thinking that they're probably liable to get very few, if any, before they get to you. I'm thinking that if you don't end up getting blacklisted, well there's no point in anyone else trying.

I would not want to attract their attention to the extent that you probably have, and under the circumstances which you have, if I were ever in my life interested in purchasing another vehicle from them in the future.

But it's all good Andy, however you never answered my question back here though:



So, are you Andy?

I'm done responding to you.

It's clear you are here just to stir up trouble. You've made 187 posts in the month you've been posting with almost all of them in this thread and the posts that weren't in this thread were almost entirely in related threads. That speaks volumes about why you are here.

I have been an avid Tesla supporter in many ways. For you to try paint the picture of me as someone who Tesla should blacklist just because I'm being vocal in my thoughts on this is offensive.

You suggested the mainstream media hadn't picked up on the story because it wasn't a story and I pointed out that no one had really attempted to make it a story yet. I pointed out that people's patience seemed to be running out, based on what was happening in Denmark and Norway. That wasn't a threat, but rather factual.

I'm not hiding behind the anonymity of the internet, while you are. Why don't you come out and tell everyone your real name, VIN, etc.?

In any case, I am through with you. I would tell you how I really feel about your last post, and actually the majority of your posts, but it would wind up in snippiness or just deleted entirely for profanity.

 

[P85DEE]

I'm done responding to you.

It's clear you are here just to stir up trouble. You've made 187 posts in the month you've been posting with almost all of them in this thread and the posts that weren't in this thread were almost entirely in related threads. That speaks volumes about why you are here.

I have been an avid Tesla supporter in many ways. For you to try paint the picture of me as someone who Tesla should blacklist just because I'm being vocal in my thoughts on this is offensive.

You suggested the mainstream media hadn't picked up on the story because it wasn't a story and I pointed out that no one had really attempted to make it a story yet. I pointed out that people's patience seemed to be running out, based on what was happening in Denmark and Norway. That wasn't a threat, but rather factual.

I'm not hiding behind the anonymity of the internet, while you are. Why don't you come out and tell everyone your real name, VIN, etc.?

In any case, I am through with you. I would tell you how I really feel about your last post, and actually the majority of your posts, but it would wind up in snippiness or just deleted entirely for profanity.

I'd offer a response to that, well aside from the one line I'm offering up here, but then what good would it do, since you are done responding to me.

 

[vip gts]

Thanks. But I'm also interested in your other answer to my questions back here
Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L - Page 111



I've been looking at some of the talk in here Andy, and frankly, some of it gives me less than the feeling that "P85D owners who are affected by this" in here are willing to give anything remotely resembling the "benefit of the doubt"..

In fact, such an assessment is frankly laughable.

I'm hearing talk of Tesla deliberately using 0-60 times with rollout for the P85D and not for the other models, in an effort to make the P85D show a 0-60 performance benefit which was disingenuous vs the other models.

That doesn't sound like any "benefit of the doubt" to me.

Talk like that, doesn't seem like talk which would come from people who would not want to see Tesla "hurt".

Accusing Tesla of using the term "horsepower motor power" in a disingenuous manner, that doesn't sound like "benefit of the doubt" to me the ,



You know Andy, if someone at Tesla were reading that above comment, it could be argued that they would be well within reason to perceive it as a threat.

There has been talk of the possibility that certain members/customers in here could end up being blacklisted, and in a position whereby Tesla would never sell them another vehicle. Well just one man's assessment one man's opinion, if that should happen, I don't see how you would not be at or near the head of the line, if it should come down to that.



Well as per my opinion above, I don't think that at this point that it would matter much if you "lead the charge", as I think that you have quite possibly done more than enough to show up prominently on their radar if they should decide to part company with certain customers up the road. It's easier to burn a bridge than it is to build one.

If they do decide to blacklist a few people over this crap, then I'm thinking that they're probably liable to get very few, if any, before they get to you. I'm thinking that if you don't end up getting blacklisted, well there's no point in anyone else trying.

I would not want to attract their attention to the extent that you probably have, and under the circumstances which you have, if I were ever in my life interested in purchasing another vehicle from them in the future.

But it's all good Andy, however you never answered my question back here though:



So, are you Andy?

Reading your post it sure seams like you are the one making the threats.
i don't think you meant it that way but that is the appearance.

 

[P85DEE]

Reading your post it sure seams like you are the one making the threats.
i don't think you meant it that way but that is the appearance.

Where do you see any inkling of a threat in my post? You may want to go back and read it again.

It wasn't me who said:

It's that the P85D owners who are affected by this are still willing to give Tesla the benefit of the doubt, and are expecting Tesla to make things right. We're exhibiting patience because we don't want to see Tesla hurt. ...But I expect our collective patience is running out, as evidenced by what's going on in Denmark and Norway...... When our patience does eventually run out, if and when we make a concerted effort to actually try to get news of this out to all P85D owners, and to the general public, I assure you the mainstream media will pick up on it......

Nope, wasn't me who said that.

You read that above, about Tesla being "hurt" and tell me again if you think that I'm making any threat here.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Where do you see any inkling of a threat in my post? You may want to go back and read it again.

It wasn't me who said:

Nope, wasn't me who said that.

You read that above, about Tesla being "hurt" and tell me again if you think that I'm making any threat here.

I think the perception of a threat from you about the blacklist is because the blacklist was only mentioned in context with people who have directly sued Tesla. Tesla have never blacklisted anyone simply for going to the media with their complaints, so your suggestion was going beyond what Tesla have previously done.

 

[vgrinshpun]

An electric motor produces torque at the shaft that is proportional to the current. The inverter or motor controller is used to regulate the current according to the requested torque command.

The resulting speed that the motor turns is determined by the difference between the applied load and the generated torque--if the load exceeds the torque then the motor stalls, if the torque exceeds the load then the motor spins.

The resulting output power is calculated by multiplication of the generated torque and the resulting speed.

It is the design of the magnetics in the motor that determines the maximum possible torque that it can produce and not some peak hp rating.

You cannot calculate max torque of an electric motor from P and RPM. In motor used by Tesla 3 phase current is used to generate rotating magnetic field. This causes motor to turn, but there is a slip. Greater the slip is more torque motor produces.

Look at efficiency map from http://www.acpropulsion.com/datasheet/ac150gen2.pdf

Since power is torque*RPM*unit conversion blue line in efficiency map is set by max torque. It can be calculated from the map.

I appreciate the comments and research you did on electric motors. I think that unhappy P85D owners and those that support their conclusions will benefit from understanding the technical side of the motor horsepower issues.

Unfortunately the discussions included in your posts do not take into account that electric motors in Tesla vehicles are fed by Power Electronic Modules (PEM, or inverter), and this is one of the reasons that they are inaccurate.

Tesla uses the newest and most sophisticated inverter scheme – Flux Vector PWM (pulse width modulation). I do not want to go into a lot of details on this, as this might be beyond the interest level of the majority of TMC members, but will summarize the essence as it applies to the discussion at hand. For those interested in technical details, I suggest the 4 part series “Understanding Variable Speed Drives” published in EC&M magazine, as well as the motor control system section from Tesla Motors Patent: “Voltage estimation feedback of overmodulated signal for an electric vehicle”

The just of it is that Tesla motor control includes a closed loop comprised of motor and inverter microprocessor. The close loop control is unique to the Flux Vector PWM inverters and is not used in any other type of inverters. This ultra-high speed close loop control system uses real time data from the motor to generate output voltage signal to precisely control motor torque and speed.

The power required to produce this output voltage is fed to the inverter from the battery and is not a motor control signal, rather just the byproduct of the Torque and speed which are the precisely controlled motor output parameters. The power required to produce the required motor torque and speed, of course, can be calculated using the formula that I as well as many others posted many times: Power = Torque x rpm / 5252.

The key result of the above (neglecting the transients) is that tesla drive unit output is a constant torque from rpm(0) to the rpm(maxP) at which power required to produce this torque is equal to the maximum hp rating of the motor calculated using the above formula. The corresponding portion of the power-speed curve is called constant torque portion and is represented by the straight line with angle between it and the speed axis proportional to the rated torque of the motor.

After the inflection point at the maximum rated motor hp, the power curve is a horizontal line representing the fact that motor reached its power limit. This portion of the curve is called constant power region. Based on the above formula, since the power has reached maximum allowable level, the torque is declining with the increase in speed.

The above is the reason that in Tesla drives motor horsepower rating uniquely identifies the motor rated torque and can be readily calculated using above formula (with the slight variations due to the transients).

Except that P85D is not a 463hp car (yes, you can't even get numbers straight). In order to have "463 hp car", you need to replace $691 motor hp drive units with 463 motor hp drive units. Once you do so, however, you will end up with the car performing similar to 85D. P85D is a car with 691 motor hp, battery limited to 463 hp. The higher motor hp is responsible for the performance boost that P85D has over 85D and your imaginary "463hp car".

Sure it is. Tesla even says so. And at highways speeds, it performs just like a sub 500 hp car does that weighs what it does.

Absolutely not. Tesla says that it is a car with motor hp rating and maximum motor shaft power limited by the battery. The result of what is explained above is a hybrid torque curve, with the initial portion defined by the combined motor rated horsepower (per ECE R85), and the second portion of it that is defined by the battery limited power.

The comparison between Model S and similar hp/weight ICE car is invalid, because the acceleration is defined by the difference of the car torque and the load (resistance) torque and inertia. The ICE car has different torque characteristic and is not an indication of the performance of an EV.

I understand your frustration that high speed performance of P85D did not meet your expectations. Tesla, however, never marketed the car using this metric. I am further sympathetic to the fact that you misinterpreted the data provided by Tesla to mean something that the company did not imply, but you expected.

For the record, as I’ve stated more than once before, I do not believe that Tesla handled presentation of the P85D specifications properly, but it clearly was not a conscientious attempt to defraud the customers. Having said this, however, I am not sure what would be the right way, short of posting a lot of technical stuff (which most definitely will be lost on absolute majority of consumers) and requiring prospective P85D owners take a 10-hour course on Tesla drivetrain. The enormous quantity of posts on the “691” threads, including mine, trying to explain the technical side of the issues, are proof that there is no easy solution here.

This is innovation problem, which became Tesla problem by association. I understand that Tesla is inseparable from the innovation it represents, and accept the whole package. You and other unhappy owners, I believe, want and crave the innovation, but want it without the side effects. This is not a realistic position.

A standard which the ECE says is preliminary and if we believe your interpretation, has nothing to do with vehicle horsepower.

The ECE R85 is not preliminary. Rev.1 of it was issued on August 2013 and is available from the ECE Site. You are apparently looking at one of the preliminary copies of the Amendmends (there were 5 and all of them rolled in Rev.1)

Repeating “your interpretation” over and over in your posts is disingenuous. We had several substantive discussions on this topic and you simply ran out of arguments. Repeating “your interpretation” does not represent a convincing argument.

You apparently also ignoring that my interpretation is identical to Tesla’s interpretation and interpretation of the authorities that have jurisdiction over the Certificate of Conformity that is required for every vehicle registered in Europe.

The electric motor produces power that is proportional to the power fed it (voltage*current). The REST "power" log follows the power in this graph exactly, not the torque.

This is wrong. The motor in Tesla drivetrain produces torque and speed which it is *controlled* to produce. It draws power required to produce the controlled parameters – output torque and speed.

I am not convinced that it is OK to add the motor hp of both motors together to come to the 691 motor hp number.
It would be nice if Tesla could provide us with the graphical data to back up the claim that the theoretical combined motor hp of the 2 motors is in fact 691 (US metrics).

My EC certificate of conformity only states the motor hp of the individual motors, which is 193 kW front and 350 kW rear. Apparently the 691 motor hp figure is not according to ECE R85.

JB Straubel addressed this in his Blog:

The motor shaft horsepower, when operating alone, is a more consistent rating. In fact, it is only this (single or combined) motor shaft horsepower rating that is legally required to be posted in the European Union.

Neither does Tesla. They used to but then stopped back in May.

This is wrong. JB Straubel blog post is dated September 21. Excerpt is above.

 

[Canuck]

Excellent post vgrinshpun. Very informative, well-reasoned and polite. What you said here really hit a cord:

This is innovation problem, which became Tesla problem by association. I understand that Tesla is inseparable from the innovation it represents, and accept the whole package. You and other unhappy owners, I believe, want and crave the innovation, but want it without the side effects. This is not a realistic position.

 

[sorka]

Absolutely not. Tesla says that it is a car with motor hp rating and maximum motor shaft power limited by the battery. The result of what is explained above is a hybrid torque curve, with the initial portion defined by the combined motor rated horsepower (per ECE R85), and the second portion of it that is defined by the battery limited power.

You can try and twist it all you like. The fact is Tesla *SAYS* the horsepower is 463 hp. The P85D has motors that can handle 691 hp's worth of battery power in a car that can only output enough battery power to produce 463 hp at the motors shafts. The P85D is a 463 hp car. Period. Nothing you can say will change that.

The ECE R85 is not preliminary. Rev.1 of it was issued on August 2013 and is available from the ECE Site. You are apparently looking at one of the preliminary copies of the Amendmends (there were 5 and all of them rolled in Rev.1)

Repeating “your interpretation” over and over in your posts is disingenuous. We had several substantive discussions on this topic and you simply ran out of arguments. Repeating “your interpretation” does not represent a convincing argument.

Me repeating? Seriously. I think you're well over 100+ times on repeating your exact ECE R85 assertion. Or are you referring to my bullet list? If so, how about responding to it for once?

As far as ECE R85, I remind you of the following recent email response:


"Thank you for your query about UN Regulation No. 85.
My understanding is that UN Regulation No. 85 (particularly Annex 6 dealing with the method for measuring net power and the maximum 30 minutes power of electric drive trains) is not clear enough at this stage to provide a clear answer to the question. The informal working group Electric Vehicles and the Environment (EVE) under the Working Party on Pollution and Energy (GRPE) is actually currently working on the proper determination of net power of new powertrain technologies such as hybrid electric and full electric vehicles."

Sound's preliminary to me.

 

[JonG]

(Lots of stuff ending with....)



So, are you Andy?

Am I the only one who can't read that last line without hearing Clint Eastwood in my head and 'are you feeling lucky?'

I'm all ears. Who are you? What's the worst that can happen? Tesla will probably give you a free t-shirt for your defence of the brand.

 

[MikeBur]

Where do you see any inkling of a threat in my post? You may want to go back and read it again.

It wasn't me who said:



Nope, wasn't me who said that.

You read that above, about Tesla being "hurt" and tell me again if you think that I'm making any threat here.

Your tone is easy to misread. I read it as threatening too. The fact that you are implying criticism is something worthy of TM banning a customer from future sales is a slippery slope and, to use another analogy, one should be careful throwing stones in glass houses... In another post you state

But you are dead right, in that they owe you, and indeed us all, an explanation as to what's going on here. It makes me mad and I don't even own a P90D.

I guess it upsets me to this point, because I'm thinking "if they'll do this to people who outright paid the 10K which was asked for Ludicrous, well the what are they liable to do to P85D owners like myself, who would have paid less than that for it?"

If they're withholding what you paid for, well then who is next in their crosshairs?????

again, aggressive, though now it could be perceived that your are implying tesla has malicious intent and not providing what paid for...

When you combine this with the facts that the majority of your posts since joining one month ago are confrontational, that you indicate that you are an owner of a p85d though are not verified either with any mention of vin range, firmware tracker use, etc and mask your identity behind an Internet persona, this may likely result in some dismissal of your postings.

I wish you well, though I won't be able to see your responses as you're the first person on my ignore list. If you wish to share more with the community or be receptive to feedback then please pm me and we can chat. Life is too short to have constant confrontation.

 

[sorka]

This is wrong. The motor in Tesla drivetrain produces torque and speed which it is *controlled* to produce. It draws power required to produce the controlled parameters – output torque and speed.

You didn't read post obviously. My point is that that power produced by motors follows *exactly* the power(not torque) draw from the battery. I never said it wasn't controlled.

 

[Auzie]

It's clear you are here just to stir up trouble. You've made 187 posts in the month you've been posting with almost all of them in this thread and the posts that weren't in this thread were almost entirely in related threads. That speaks volumes about why you are here.

This forum is open to anyone to come here and challenge anyone else's position and to say their piece, as long as they respect the forum rules. I evaluate all challenges on their merit, not on the history of posting, join date or members public identity.


I would not be surprised if Tesla's employees take a more (pro)active role in defending their business any way they can and anywhere they can.


Having said that, I have no clue who P85DEE is nor do I care, nor does it matter imho.


A freedom to repetitively claim that Tesla shortchanged you is balanced with anyone else's freedom to come and challenge you or anyone else on this forum. No VIN or public identity are a requirement for contributing here.


Anyone is free to disagree with me.

I have been an avid Tesla supporter in many ways. For you to try paint the picture of me as someone who Tesla should blacklist just because I'm being vocal in my thoughts on this is offensive.

Actions speak much louder than words.

Words: 'I have been an avid Tesla supporter in many ways.'


Actions, supportive - buying a car


Actions, not so supportive:


Writing a public letter to CEO that lacked factual evidence and actively soliciting support for the position that Tesla shortchanged you and others. Such public action/campaign had a potential to blow out of control and seriously damage Tesla. Mud sticks.


Repetitive posting on the issue and asking that 'Tesla make it right' yet not saying what that right is.


To me, the most distasteful aspect of writing that public letter is that you did it without having the first-hand understanding of the underlying technical issues.

In that thread, I've fully acknowledged that I do not have the technical knowledge to discuss the specifics with first-hand knowledge. But I trust those that do, like sorka and wk057.

The demonstrated preparedness to go as far as to claim conspiracy theory without having first-hand understanding, but based on someone else's interpretation.

Some very public words on Tesla, available to anyone to read:

A misunderstanding that Tesla anticipated, started to do something about it to prevent it, and then decided not to. That sounds like there may be some conspiracy involved after all.

Conspiracy to let the confusing information remain in place and keep confusing potential customers, to increase sales. The explanation they were working on would have prevented that.

Just because a bomb is sugarcoated, that does not make it less of a bomb.

It's that the P85D owners who are affected by this are still willing to give Tesla the benefit of the doubt, and are expecting Tesla to make things right. We're exhibiting patience because we don't want to see Tesla hurt. But I expect our collective patience is running out, as evidenced by what's going on in Denmark and Norway. When our patience does eventually run out, if and when we make a concerted effort to actually try to get news of this out to all P85D owners, and to the general public, I assure you the mainstream media will pick up on it. I don't think I'll be the one leading that charge, because I'm not interested in seeing Tesla hurt, but someone will lead it, and it will not be a difficult fight to lead.

The language in the above statement implies you speaking on behalf of others.


It seems to me that you are trying to bolster your personal position here by prematurely claiming support of others for a concerted effort to actually try to get news of this out to all P85D owners, and to the general public. Maybe you have the support of other owners to make a concerted effort to publicly drum up this issue much more, maybe you don't.


Having said that, I trust your assurance that you give in the above post 100%

 

[JonG]

It does matter who p85dee is because the views need to be put in context of the poster and any associated bias.

We are not all created equally and someone's specialist knowledge that others have limited skills on will be have to be taken in that context. A stock holder may more pro than someone who is not. I have little knowledge of electricL
engine standards but I have a first class degree in electrical engineering. I can read a technical paper and I can usually smell bu11. I now forensically investigate everything from bribery and corruption to internal theft, misrepresentation of accounts and the like and I have a naturally sceptical mind. But part of that makes me look at motivation and Tesla had more to gain with the positive bias than not. One can also look at the AP beta version. What is that all about?! It's not a beta programme anymore than then brakes are prototypes - it's marketing to make excuses for poor performance and to make he fan base feel they are part of the development process building stronger brand affinity. Do you really think their insurer would allow the global
roll out of genuine beta software?

 

[sorka]

This REST log:

Goes with this vbox chart:

Just in case you have any doubts about how closely battery power tracks motor power, not torque.

The REST chart is blockier because the sample rate is 4 hz vs the vbox's 20 hz.

 

[Auzie]

It does matter who p85dee is because the views need to be put in context of the poster and any associated bias.

We are not all created equally and someone's specialist knowledge that others have limited skills on will be have to be taken in that context. A stock holder may more pro than someone who is not. I have little knowledge of electricL
engine standards but I have a first class degree in electrical engineering. I can read a technical paper and I can usually smell bu11. I now forensically investigate everything from bribery and corruption to internal theft, misrepresentation of accounts and the like and I have a naturally sceptical mind. But part of that makes me look at motivation and Tesla had more to gain with the positive bias than not. One can also look at the AP beta version. What is that all about?! It's not a beta programme anymore than then brakes are prototypes - it's marketing to make excuses for poor performance and to make he fan base feel they are part of the development process building stronger brand affinity. Do you really think their insurer would allow the global
roll out of genuine beta software?

I personally evaluate posts based on their merit.

It is not too difficult to discern the contributor's background and knowledge based on the post content and clarity.

 

[P85DEE]

This forum is open to anyone to come here and challenge anyone else's position and to say their piece, as long as they respect the forum rules. I evaluate all challenges on their merit, not on the history of posting, join date or members public identity.


I would not be surprised if Tesla's employees take a more (pro)active role in defending their business any way they can and anywhere they can.


Having said that, I have no clue who P85DEE is nor do I care, nor does it matter imho.


Your freedom to repetitively claim that Tesla shortchanged you is balanced with anyone else's freedom to come and challenge you or anyone else on this forum. No VIN or public identity are a requirement for contributing here.


Anyone is free to disagree with me.




Actions speak much louder than words.

Your words: 'I have been an avid Tesla supporter in many ways.'

Your actions, support side - you bought a car


Your actions, not so supportive: You started a public letter to CEO that lacked factual evidence and actively solicited support for the position that Tesla shortchanged you. Such public action/campaign had a potential to blow out of control and seriously damage Tesla. Mud sticks.


You repetitively asked that 'Tesla make it right' yet you are not saying what that right is.


To me, the most distasteful aspect of you writing that public letter is that you did it without having the first-hand understanding of the underlying technical issues.




You demonstrated preparedness to go that far to claim conspiracy theory without having first-hand understanding, but based on someone else's interpretation.

Your very public words on Tesla, available to anyone to read:





Just because you sugarcoat your bomb, that does not make it less of a bomb.





In the above statement, your language represents that you speak for others, not for yourself only.


It seems to me that you are trying to bolster your personal position here by prematurely claiming support of others for a concerted effort to actually try to get news of this out to all P85D owners, and to the general public. Maybe you have the support of other owners to make a concerted effort to publicly drum up this issue much more, maybe you don't.


Having said that, I trust the assurance that you have given in the above post 100%

Lot of good points in that post, and consistent with some of my own observations.

But to those who somehow see my remarks on a blacklist as some sort of "threat", first off, I don't have any blacklist to put anyone on as I don't work for Tesla and am a P85D owner like many others here.

My comments we're made with the following post by Canuck in mind.
Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L - Page 35

Like no doubt many others, I'm wondering if such a practice exists, then why would some of those whose comments on Tesla, comments which border on, if not cross over into accusations of deceit, not be at risk for such an action if available for an auto manufacturer to use, and apparently it's not unprecedented.

So no, I'm not calling for anyone to be blacklisted. Just saying that I won't be surprised, if it is in fact an option available to a manufacturer, if it winds up being used.


Since I've been in here, I'm amazed at the messages I've gotten encouraging me to continue to post as I do. I get the impression in reading those messages, that many of them come from people who post less now, having been "shouted down" and "bullied" when I look at context in which some of these messages are written.

Well, I won't be shouted down, nor bullied.

BTW, has anyone else in here gotten so many green marks in as short of a period as I have? What do the green marks mean?

 

[rns-e]

Lot of good points in that post, and consistent with some of my own observations.

Since I've been in here, I'm amazed at the messages I've gotten encouraging me to continue to post as I do. I get the impression in reading those messages, that many of them come from people who post less now, having been "shouted down" and "bullied" when I look at context in which some of these messages are written.

And so have so many of your 'opponents'

Well, I won't be shouted down, nor bullied.

Who is bullying you? It seams you take all this a little to personal for a P85D owner that does not feel mislead by Tesla and is a 100% happy owner. I think there is a new documentary out about Apple - 'The man in the machine'. I have not seen it, but it supposedly askes some of the questions that should have been asked, but could not be asked because people were not allowed to criticize anything about Apple. Don't no, but reading about it, just made me think about your posts.

BTW, has anyone else in here gotten so many green marks in as short of a period as I have? What do the green marks mean?

To be fair, no one have been as 'vocal' as you have in such a short time frame, but good on you anyway, little gold stars (green dots) can be a powerful motivator ;-)

A humorous guess to your identity - Donald Trump?