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Social Chat - Short Term TSLA Movements

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PZ and Ken: Excellent discussion. I will have to read the whole thing 2-3x before fully understanding! :wink: Thanks
Thanks. It is important to get these issues ironed out so we all have the correct info on how to interpret options, especially around ER. The major learning point for me is not to worry about sudden IV changes pre/post-ER for any option 1 month or more out in expiration. It's really only the ones 0-3 weeks (and most to the weekly) out that get crushed the most in IV value loss post-ER.

It kind of goes along my thinking that instead of buying calls that expire the ER week to "play the ER", it is better to buy them at least 1 month out since there won't be any significant loss of IV value the next day and you can gain in price jumps that happen a bit delayed from the actual ER (ie. Q4 when the big jump to 265 happened the next week and my weekly (week of ER) calls only had minimal profits due to a smaller ump that week and IV value loss).
 
Okay, I've been trying to follow this and got lost somewhere. If the IV doesn't move much for LEAPS, then I thought there wouldn't be value in rolling pre-ER? And if IV does move enough to matter, you'd want to do a delayed roll?

OK. Your confusion is more than valid. It's partially because we've been intermixing a couple of issues plus a number of my post I deleted with the plots (couldn't figure out how to drop just the plots). So I'll take some time here to summarize and separate the issues, so at least you can evaluate the advice and opinions correctly. I think you might actually have it clear, but I want to be sure we're all communicating here.

First (for the benefit of those not familiar with the history of some of this), we're assuming this discussion is based around holding a bull position in TSLA, using LEAPS as a rolling position to substitute for a stock position. Therefore the decisions are based on a continually bull position, but to minimize the time degradation. This is done to hold a 'stock risk' equivalent position with less capital allocation. With that context, the discussion at hand is when to roll out existing J15s to J16s for maximum benefit.

Based on my experience in implementing this methodology, the time vs risk guidance is to roll about 6 months from expiration, but within 4 months minimum. Generally the best time to roll is at the peaks (due to Delta tracking, covered earlier). I rolled mine out earlier this year due to the large run up to $260 and experiencing a major pullback (rolled most out back at $240 or so). With the recent partial recovery, those that held J15 lower leg now evaluating the best roll forward timing. I think that's largely the quick version of the context.

The current question at hand is to roll now or wait for ER. I presented a case with some charts to show that currently, even though we've had a local potential peak rise, the IV is very low for all options, including our J15 LEAPS ($300 strike specifically, but really all strikes). An increase in IV can induce higher values for our options, so needs to be considered. As pz1975 noted, changes in IV are much higher for shorter term options and so have less effect on the decision to gain maximum benefit.

So with all that for context, let's summarize where we are and what the opined advice actual is so we're all clear. IV will definitely have effects on the J15 LEAP. You can use the theo values to check this, but if current IV of 43 rises to say 65 the option value will double (even when taking 60 more days of time value off and maintaining the current underlying $230).

But it's also true the further out you are from expiration, the less IV will actually change for your option. For a 2 year LEAP, there virtually no change even if the IV values for weeklies are spiking. By the time we reach the next ER (say late July, early Aug), you'll be down to 5 or so months to expiration and the IV effects that were essentially none existent a year ago, still won't approach the weeklies, but will change more than in the past, having more effect than what you may have experienced on those same LEAP positions.

Based on my experience, if you wait for yet another ER early Nov, you'll be even more highly influenced by IV plus enter time value losses inconsistent with the lower risk stock replacement scenario in our context. Fine for that risk, but not within the lower risk of our premise. That leaves this coming ER as the last remaining ER influenced roll, hence a decision to roll now (or soon) or wait for that ER.

I've already rolled, so this advice for those with remaining J15s to roll from this corner is as follows. This coming ER time is actually my normal role time. It's well within the time frame and actually affords some time after. The IV effect will be much less than a weekly, but more than in the past and we know IV tends to move for TSLA at ER and coming into it.

Hence my original posted advice:
unless you think TSLA will pull back significantly take advantage of the current likelihood of some increasing IV building into the ER. The spike will be less than shorter term options, but more than previous ERs for your J15s and will have some additional effect (I saw this even on the last ER after it added to the option depression caused by TSLA drop). As it turns out I should have likely waited to roll, like those in he mist of this decision, but I saw a protracted rotation out of growth stocks and calculated they may not return by the time of this Aug ER. Looks like that was an even call and those that stuck it through are in possible relative advantage position (although you may not feel like it) to advantage the current ER with some additional leverage.

That said, the current run up is not at all a bad time to roll forward. Either decision is a decent one and you shouldn't look backward.
In summary, the IV will have more potential change (and spiking) both up going into ER and down after than earlier due to the now shorter time remaining on your J15s. But they will not approach the weeklies (to the point pk1975 was making regarding the plots I presented and deleted). Current IVs are very low offering a possible kicker for that effect. However underlying TSLA will still have the most effect, so use that as primary decision, IV as secondary, but more a factor than in the past, while still much less than very short term options (hence an important part of the 4-6 months roll outs to mimic stock level risks).

I hope this is helpful to your decisions. Best to all of us!
 
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Roll now or pre er

General rule of thumb for options: Sell on high IV, buy on low IV.

Here is my simplified reasoning for waiting for higher IV to roll my j15 leaps to j16 leaps.

1. Very low IV now for TSLA options, even VIX is at the lowest value since 2007
2. TSLA options IV will be higher pre er than now
3. Leaps that expire further in time have lower IV than the leaps that expire sooner
4. At any point in time, it is reasonable to assume that j16 IV will be lower than j15 IV. There is IV differential between the two due to different expiration year.
6. That differential is low now as IV is low. Once IV rises, it will rise more for j15 than j16, thus increasing differential in IV and thus option price for j15 will go up more than the option price for j16.
7. My roll then means sell j15 on high IV and buy j16 on still steady (low) IV as that option is too far in time.

Now I just have to weigh the effect of higher IV vs time decay on option price, as they act in opposing direction on price. If I wait too long, time decay effect on option price may offset any gains due to higher IV. My bet is that the next er is likely to give me higher IV without too much time decay on j15 leaps.

Any holes, please point them out, my account will be appreciative:biggrin:
 
General rule of thumb for options: Sell on high IV, buy on low IV.

Here is my simplified reasoning for waiting for higher IV to roll my j15 leaps to j16 leaps.

1. Very low IV now for TSLA options, even VIX is at the lowest value since 2007
2. TSLA options IV will be higher pre er than now
3. Leaps that expire further in time have lower IV than the leaps that expire sooner
4. At any point in time, it is reasonable to assume that j16 IV will be lower than j15 IV. There is IV differential between the two due to different expiration year.
6. That differential is low now as IV is low. Once IV rises, it will rise more for j15 than j16, thus increasing differential in IV and thus option price for j15 will go up more than the option price for j16.
7. My roll then means sell j15 on high IV and buy j16 on still steady (low) IV as that option is too far in time.

Now I just have to weigh the effect of higher IV vs time decay on option price, as they act in opposing direction on price. If I wait too long, time decay effect on option price may offset any gains due to higher IV. My bet is that the next er is likely to give me higher IV without too much time decay on j15 leaps.

Any holes, please point them out, my account will be appreciative:biggrin:

that's the picture from the IV perspective. Then as always, the underlying TSLA will have the greatest effect of course. So consider TSLA primary with IV secondarily weighted (tie breaker if you will; You can also watch the IV between now then, knowing a spike is less effectual than a steady climb). If you feel TSLA will rise going into ER (along with some IV), then hold for that. And depending on how far it rises, consider whether to sell before or after based on what you think TSLA will do primarily (as usual), with secondarily IV effects. Ditto for the decision, to do an time delay buy after selling. Often if it runs up too much, I'll phase the buy side (since I'm already long with the existing leg for bull case insurance), and as TSLA pulls back advantage that pull back for the buy side of the roll. So that method still applies on it's own merit with regard to TSLA underlying. The IV pullback effect on the longer J16 buy will be especially minimal and of little consideration relative to the underlying consideration (weight that IV effect as very small on that side of the roll)
 
PZ and Ken: Excellent discussion. I will have to read the whole thing 2-3x before fully understanding! :wink: Thanks


And this is why I don't use greeks to make options trading decisions. It will make your head spin in a hurry.

I know what to do with options, when to buy them, when to sell, when to roll. But all of this technical stuff I just try to stay away from. You can develop a feel for options by trading and observing them a lot better than by calculating IV, theta, etc. in spreadsheets.

Just my honest opinion. It works for me at least.
 
And this is why I don't use greeks to make options trading decisions. It will make your head spin in a hurry.

I know what to do with options, when to buy them, when to sell, when to roll. But all of this technical stuff I just try to stay away from. You can develop a feel for options by trading and observing them a lot better than by calculating IV, theta, etc. in spreadsheets.

Just my honest opinion. It works for me at least.

I agree about most of the greeks but I pay attention to IV as it is has such a big effect on the option price. When TSLA was range bound 200-210 recently the IV dipped so low that the options were much cheaper than when it first spiked up to and over 200. I expect IV to start go up again now with the recent spike.
 
And this is why I don't use greeks to make options trading decisions. It will make your head spin in a hurry.

I know what to do with options, when to buy them, when to sell, when to roll. But all of this technical stuff I just try to stay away from. You can develop a feel for options by trading and observing them a lot better than by calculating IV, theta, etc. in spreadsheets.

Just my honest opinion. It works for me at least.
I like to know both ends of it as then I get a better feel for the mechanisms driving things. I don't even have to fully understand how the greeks are derived, but understanding the concepts behind the drivers helps solidify the relationships in my head.
 
The only thing I would add to kenliles and Auzie's lists above (thanks guys - nice summaries) is that there is an assumption that IV will be lower for Jan16 LEAPS than Jan15 calls. This is not true. IV for Jan16, Jan15 and even September calls (I used ATM for comparison) are 0.43, 0.44 and 0.45 respectively. When I made the same comparison around the ER, they were all the same then as well. Calls with expirations beyond 1-2 months will track their IVs together up and down and so there is no value gain from a lower IV from rolling LEAPS out. It's really only options inside 1 month (and lesser at 6-8 weeks) that the IV separates from the rest of the expiry dates.
 
I agree about most of the greeks but I pay attention to IV as it is has such a big effect on the option price. When TSLA was range bound 200-210 recently the IV dipped so low that the options were much cheaper than when it first spiked up to and over 200. I expect IV to start go up again now with the recent spike.

This also falls under my "feel" category. I can tell whether IV is high or low by looking at the what the options are trading at.
 
The only thing I would add to kenliles and Auzie's lists above (thanks guys - nice summaries) is that there is an assumption that IV will be lower for Jan16 LEAPS than Jan15 calls. This is not true. IV for Jan16, Jan15 and even September calls (I used ATM for comparison) are 0.43, 0.44 and 0.45 respectively. When I made the same comparison around the ER, they were all the same then as well. Calls with expirations beyond 1-2 months will track their IVs together up and down and so there is no value gain from a lower IV from rolling LEAPS out. It's really only options inside 1 month (and lesser at 6-8 weeks) that the IV separates from the rest of the expiry dates.

True- but the difference will grow as you get closer to expiry (and even more than 1 month out)- the difference is also greater for OTM than ATM
Let's use current values to get a possible handle on the swing:
current IV values for the $300 strike are:
J16 41.6%
J15 41.9%
S14 45.1%

If we use the current S14/J16 difference as representative guide of the possible J15/J16 difference 2 months from now at ER (remember the difference is likely to be a bit more by then unless TSLA gets much closer to ATM),
and we evaluate theoretical for what that current 3.5% difference in IV does to the J15 at that time:
The current S14 $3.49 price at it's current 45.1% IV would be $2.61 for the current J16 41.6% IV-
that's a 25% difference in price for the same option, using a 3.5% IV difference rather than assuming an equal IV between them. (It's the same 25% effect taking the IV up by 3.5 points as well)

pz- the ATM differences are smaller than OTM, but even that 2% difference in your current numbers today for ATM correlate to 15% difference in Option price returns. and as IV rises across the board, the differences become greater. It's true that TSLA underlying will overshadow those differences, but those aren't just throw away amounts- they are more than half the time value losses for 2 months time (about 30% for the J15 $300)
It's very analogue in nature, so you have to picture it as a wave structure in more than one dimension (hence sleepy's understandable dizziness :) )

Anyway- those are the numbers for consideration- you'll have about 30% loss in time value over the next 60 days; The IV differences are unknown, but with today's IV as a guide that could wash with the time loss. So comes down to what you think TSLA will do going into ER- grow or fade from here
--IV can be friend or foe--
 
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True- but the difference will grow as you get closer to expiry (and even more than 1 month out)- the difference is also greater for OTM than ATM
Let's use current values to get a possible handle on the swing:
current IV values for the $300 strike are:
J16 41.6%
J15 41.9%
S14 45.1%

If we use the current S14/J16 difference as representative guide of the possible J15/J16 difference 2 months from now at ER (remember the difference is likely to be a bit more by then unless TSLA gets much closer to ATM),
and we evaluate theoretical for what that current 3.5% difference in IV does to the J15 at that time:
The current S14 $3.49 price at it's current 45.1% IV would be $2.61 for the current J16 41.6% IV-
that's a 25% difference in price for the same option, using a 3.5% IV difference rather than assuming an equal IV between them. (It's the same 25% effect taking the IV up by 3.5 points as well)

pz- the ATM differences are smaller than OTM, but even that 2% difference in your current numbers today for ATM correlate to 15% difference in Option price returns. and as IV rises across the board, the differences become greater. It's true that TSLA underlying will overshadow those differences, but those aren't just throw away amounts- they are more than half the time value losses for 2 months time (about 30% for the J15 $300)
It's very analogue in nature, so you have to picture it as a wave structure in more than one dimension (hence sleepy's understandable dizziness :) )

Anyway- those are the numbers for consideration- you'll have about 30% loss in time value over the next 60 days; The IV differences are unknown, but with today's IV as a guide that could wash with the time loss. So comes down to what you think TSLA will do going into ER- grow or fade from here
--IV can be friend or foe--

I think this boils down to the following question (using the Jan15 300 call as we have been all along): As expiration nears, is the call value increase from the IV gain greater than or less than the call value loss from time decay?

Here are my calculations (using the IB options calculator; note that these values are different than real values because I simplified the calculation leaving out the interest rate and dividend yield variables from the equation):

Today (7 months from expiration): using IV=42 and days to expiration of 220, calculated value = $9.29.

Mid-August (around ER time, 5 months from expiration): using IV=45 (3 point increase as per your post) and days to expiration of 160, calculated value = $7.37.

Thus, the effect of time decay is significantly greater than the IV increase and the total value of the call drops by 21% (again leaving all other variables alone - stock price and "baseline" IV). In fact, the IV would have to be at 49.25 for the value of the call to stay steady at $9.29. The IV 'may' go up of course but that is an unknown. In essence, all things being equal, unless you feel the stock price and/or the IV will go up between now and August, it is better to roll the Jan15 calls forward now-ish (in the next month or so) to avoid loss from time decay.
 
I think this boils down to the following question (using the Jan15 300 call as we have been all along): As expiration nears, is the call value increase from the IV gain greater than or less than the call value loss from time decay?

Here are my calculations (using the IB options calculator; note that these values are different than real values because I simplified the calculation leaving out the interest rate and dividend yield variables from the equation):

Today (7 months from expiration): using IV=42 and days to expiration of 220, calculated value = $9.29.

Mid-August (around ER time, 5 months from expiration): using IV=45 (3 point increase as per your post) and days to expiration of 160, calculated value = $7.37.

Thus, the effect of time decay is significantly greater than the IV increase and the total value of the call drops by 21% (again leaving all other variables alone - stock price and "baseline" IV). In fact, the IV would have to be at 49.25 for the value of the call to stay steady at $9.29. The IV 'may' go up of course but that is an unknown. In essence, all things being equal, unless you feel the stock price and/or the IV will go up between now and August, it is better to roll the Jan15 calls forward now-ish (in the next month or so) to avoid loss from time decay.

great discussion-
and If (using your numbers) we take one more step to help make that roll time decision for folks:
TSLA above $236 would exceed that net time/IV loss;
If IV moves to a 5% difference instead of 3%, TSLA above $232 would exceed it.
or put another way- be required to exceed it.
(I just ran these now to give you the reference points - TSLA currently $227)
now that ought to give everyone a good frame to make a decision; r
elative to where you think TSLA might trade at ER, and the effect of both the time loss against possible secondary gains from IV;
If you think TSLA falls or stays flat from here- roll now;
If you think TSLA will trade north of say $235- ER time might be a better roll;
One more consideration if you are interested in the time delay roll- the ER can work for you assuming you think ER will produce a growth in TSLA, followed by a pullback; If you think ER will not do that and carries a risk of inducing pullback- roll now;
Disclosure: I made the decision months back to roll very early anticipating a longer recovery than we're seeing currently, so I now hold only a token J15 that I intend to just sell for cash; also keep in mind, the J17s will come up Nov-Dec time; you'll want some cash around to put that forward leg on. Likely the strikes will be lower than you want released- the Market Makers tend to keep those closer in for a few months

thanks again pz- excellent discussion; I hope that gets everybody to a comfortable decision matrix
 
thanks again pz- excellent discussion; I hope that gets everybody to a comfortable decision matrix

Thanks a bunch ken and pz. This is directly applicable to me (Also have $320's) and I was thinking about how I was going to get into the J17's when they come out. Tough part is guessing what TSLA will do between now and August. The last few days make it awfully hard to predict.

In terms of rolling, I guess that picking the new set of strikes is mostly a matter of preference based on where we think it will go in 2015? I actually have a lower strike (255) on my J16's as I just liked being a little less OTM, albeit with few contracts. I'll have to see what J16's run for and maybe just roll the 15's to that (shedding some contracts in the process) as it works for my particular comfort level.

J16 300's seem to be going for around $25.50 at the moment.
 
great discussion-
and If (using your numbers) we take one more step to help make that roll time decision for folks:
TSLA above $236 would exceed that net time/IV loss;
If IV moves to a 5% difference instead of 3%, TSLA above $232 would exceed it.
or put another way- be required to exceed it.
(I just ran these now to give you the reference points - TSLA currently $227)
now that ought to give everyone a good frame to make a decision; r
elative to where you think TSLA might trade at ER, and the effect of both the time loss against possible secondary gains from IV;
If you think TSLA falls or stays flat from here- roll now;
If you think TSLA will trade north of say $235- ER time might be a better roll;
One more consideration if you are interested in the time delay roll- the ER can work for you assuming you think ER will produce a growth in TSLA, followed by a pullback; If you think ER will not do that and carries a risk of inducing pullback- roll now;
Disclosure: I made the decision months back to roll very early anticipating a longer recovery than we're seeing currently, so I now hold only a token J15 that I intend to just sell for cash; also keep in mind, the J17s will come up Nov-Dec time; you'll want some cash around to put that forward leg on. Likely the strikes will be lower than you want released- the Market Makers tend to keep those closer in for a few months

thanks again pz- excellent discussion; I hope that gets everybody to a comfortable decision matrix

To continue on with the discussion, an important part we have omitted thus far is the change in price of the Jan16 LEAP we are rolling forward to. I have used the Jan16 300 call for ease of calculations.

The price of that option today (using my simplified IB calculation) is $24.86 (stock price 227, IV=42, 550 days to expiration).

The price of that option in mid-August if everything (IV, stock price) stays the same (except days to expiration for which I used 485) is $22.11. Interestingly, this difference (gets cheaper) is $2.75 ($24.86-$22.11), which is more than the difference in the value lost for the Jan15 300 call between now and August ($9.29-$7.37=$1.92).

This goes back to favouring your argument that it is okay to wait until August to roll forward if everything stays the same!! In other words, the overall loss of Jan15 value from now to mid-August is LESS THAN the loss of value of the Jan16 300 call that we would theoretically roll forward to. Thus, one would gain $0.83 ($2.75-$1.92) by waiting until August to roll forward.

All of this takes the main driver of the call value - stock price - out of the equation, so if one thinks the stock will go up or down between now and August then act accordingly. What it does do, however, is provide a window where the option to roll forward is actually safe without much overall gain or loss (ie. in my example the gain would be about 3% ($0.83/$24.86) by waiting to roll forward, which is not enough to change one's strategy of when to roll forward). Thus, it is best to pick a time between now and August that one or both of the stock price and IV are higher than now to roll forward.

But...we are assuming that rolling forward at a higher stock price is best. I will do some calculations to prove that (because I think it is likely true) and post again.
 
To continue on with the discussion, an important part we have omitted thus far is the change in price of the Jan16 LEAP we are rolling forward to. I have used the Jan16 300 call for ease of calculations.

The price of that option today (using my simplified IB calculation) is $24.86 (stock price 227, IV=42, 550 days to expiration).

The price of that option in mid-August if everything (IV, stock price) stays the same (except days to expiration for which I used 485) is $22.11. Interestingly, this difference (gets cheaper) is $2.75 ($24.86-$22.11), which is more than the difference in the value lost for the Jan15 300 call between now and August ($9.29-$7.37=$1.92).

This goes back to favouring your argument that it is okay to wait until August to roll forward if everything stays the same!! In other words, the overall loss of Jan15 value from now to mid-August is LESS THAN the loss of value of the Jan16 300 call that we would theoretically roll forward to. Thus, one would gain $0.83 ($2.75-$1.92) by waiting until August to roll forward.

All of this takes the main driver of the call value - stock price - out of the equation, so if one thinks the stock will go up or down between now and August then act accordingly. What it does do, however, is provide a window where the option to roll forward is actually safe without much overall gain or loss (ie. in my example the gain would be about 3% ($0.83/$24.86) by waiting to roll forward, which is not enough to change one's strategy of when to roll forward). Thus, it is best to pick a time between now and August that one or both of the stock price and IV are higher than now to roll forward.

But...we are assuming that rolling forward at a higher stock price is best. I will do some calculations to prove that (because I think it is likely true) and post again.

yep- agreed; we were taking very worse case scenario that the J16 did not change in value- which of course it does. In your analysis for best time to roll out and or up- consider that you believe the stock will actually pull back from a high and increase from a low. The Delta from the 2 positions on that belief is a main driver for that analysis as well.
 
Yes, rolling forward is definitely better when the underlying stock price is high.

Calculations (again using a roll from Jan15 300 to Jan16 300; keeping IV constant at 42):

If stock price is 200 today, the value of a Jan15 300 is $4.10 and Jan16 300 is $16.04. Thus, one could roll forward 1 Jan15 300 into 26% of a Jan16 300 call.

If stock price is 250 today, the value of a Jan15 300 is $16.20 and Jan16 300 is $35.42. Thus, one could roll forward 1 Jan15 300 into 46% of a Jan16 300 call.

If stock price is 300 today, the value of a Jan15 300 is $38.53 and Jan16 300 is $60.52. Thus one could roll forward 1 Jan15 300 into 64% of a Jan16 300 call.

This makes me realize that when buying LEAPS it is probably better to not go too far OTM. Even though the potential gain is somewhat limited (although still way better than common stock), the net capital would be preserved much more if the stock ends up down or neutral over the year.

These calculations have helped me a lot. I think I will roll forward to slightly lower strike prices going forward than what I have been doing, probably mostly 10-20% OTM with maybe only a small amount to higher OTM strikes.