Quick question to those that already payed for FSD

[Saghost]

I don't see any need to give EAP something on top of AP(technically, they've already done this in allowing activation of AS at 0mph and identification of stationary objects)

??? My AP1 car has no problem engaging Autopilot/Autosteer at 0 mph (provided I'm not holding down the brake pedal with my foot.)

I'm not sure what you mean about the stationary objects to know if I've got that, too.

I think I do agree with your larger point, though - there's no reason all FSDC development has to wait until all eAP development has finished.

They did need to wait until they got somewhere close to the AP1 feature set - pretty much everything has waited for that, including all of the promised 8.1 features that Elon last suggested we should be seeing this week (six weeks ago.)

 

[Economite]

My guess is that Tesla will pretty soon release *something* that differentiates FSD from EAP. Why? Because then it can realize some of the profit from FSD sales.

No idea whether the "extra" feature will be something meaningful. My guess is it won't be. Possibly just some minor integration of the extra cameras into existing EAP functionality.

 

[Firewired]

Something like a virtual "birds eye" view with parking might work.

 

[Saghost]

Something like a virtual "birds eye" view with parking might work.

With the cameras Tesla chose, it's not easy to get anything resembling the typical modern Bird's eye - the fields of view are wrong, especially to the front where nothing can see in close (the forward looking cameras are all in the center of the windshield, blocked by the hood/bumper.)

 

[Firewired]

Interesting. I think based on the arguments everyone has made, I am swayed and going to just add FSD at time of purchase.

 

[chillaban]

Something like a virtual "birds eye" view with parking might work.

With the cameras Tesla chose, it's not easy to get anything resembling the typical modern Bird's eye - the fields of view are wrong, especially to the front where nothing can see in close (the forward looking cameras are all in the center of the windshield, blocked by the hood/bumper.)

AP2.0 Cameras: Capabilities and Limitations?


This thread has some image captures from the AP2 cameras. Like what Saghost says, none of the viewing angles are really going to give you what you'd intuitively expect for an overhead view.

Sure, maybe stitching the two pillar cams gives you some forward visibility of the parking spot markers to your side, but they really weren't meant for this purpose (not to mention only one rear camera is color, the rest are black-and-white-and-red)

 

[oktane]

Interesting. I think based on the arguments everyone has made, I am swayed and going to just add FSD at time of purchase.

You'll be sorry. Please do not throw money away and buy FSD. It's not happening anytime soon. If or when it does, you can always add it later. Why give Tesla an interest free loan for something that will likely never work as advertised?

 

[gearchruncher]

They also charged more for FSD on top of EAP. I don't see any need to give EAP something on top of AP(technically, they've already done this in allowing activation of AS at 0mph and identification of stationary objects) before giving the FSD folks anything.

Unless only people that paid for EAP got 0MPH engage and "identification of stationary objects," this is not an EAP feature. EAP features are ones that go to people who paid $5,000 for EAP instead of $3,000 for AP. Nobody has yet reported not getting an AP2 feature because they didn't pay for EAP.

Plus, the Tesla AP page is pretty clear what EAP features are:

"...Match speed to traffic conditions, keep within a lane, automatically change lanes without requiring driver input, transition from one freeway to another, exit the freeway when your destination is near, self-park when near a parking spot and be summoned to and from your garage."

I paid for EAP because I want the car to auto change lanes on the highway and exit the highway at the right point all by itself. I can't imagine that they would deliver FSD "features" which are all described as driving the car with no human interaction at all before they can get the car to manage a highway lane change by itself with a driver at the wheel. Also, if the car can't manage a parking lot on it's own, what FSD thing do you expect it to do?

In fact, an interesting discussion: What is a FSD "feature" that isn't FSD itself? FSD seems kind of binary to me. Either the car can manage the whole drive by itself, or it can't. Anything up to that is EAP to me. So how can they deliver FSD without EAP working 100%? Even the Tesla FSD description starts "Build upon Enhanced Autopilot and order Full Self-Driving Capability on your Tesla."

Realize that the basic EAP function of exiting a highway requires them to tie into the NAV system for the AP for the first time ever. It's a big leap for them to take, and I'll be super annoyed if that do that to people that paid for FSD first, not EAP, given EAP is now 5 months late and nowhere on the obvious horizon.

 

[alevek]

Just consider your FSD purchase as a donation to Elon and be happy. You're never going to have FSD on any HW2 car.

 

[Saghost]

In fact, an interesting discussion: What is a FSD "feature" that isn't FSD itself? FSD seems kind of binary to me. Either the car can manage the whole drive by itself, or it can't. Anything up to that is EAP to me. So how can they deliver FSD without EAP working 100%? Even the Tesla FSD description starts "Build upon Enhanced Autopilot and order Full Self-Driving Capability on your Tesla."

I would think that a FSDC feature short of FSD is anything that's useful to self driving and not part of the promised eAP functionality - stopping (and eventually resuming) at traffic lights and stop signs, making 90 degree turns under Autosteer, merging with a traffic stream/yielding to traffic when needed, etc.

 

[gearchruncher]

So if it can stop at lights and signs, make 90 degree turns, and merge with traffic, then at what point does it not work, and require you to intervene, and how does it warn you of this? What is this missing that isn't FSD? Parking- the thing they promised earlier than FSD? Does it detect pedestrians when it goes to make a 90 degree turn? Seriously, how does Tesla tell you to "keep your hands on the wheel" as the car spins the wheel 360 degrees to make a turn and you hope it doesn't over or under steer?

I just don't see how FSD can be called any part of FSD if it requires the driver to be ready to grab the wheel at any moment because it can do one maneuver but not another. AP today is clearly understood that it follows no navigation so all it does is go straight in a lane.

 

[Saghost]

So if it can stop at lights and signs, make 90 degree turns, and merge with traffic, then at what point does it not work, and require you to intervene, and how does it warn you of this? What is this missing that isn't FSD? Parking- the thing they promised earlier than FSD? Does it detect pedestrians when it goes to make a 90 degree turn? Seriously, how does Tesla tell you to "keep your hands on the wheel" as the car spins the wheel 360 degrees to make a turn and you hope it doesn't over or under steer?

I just don't see how FSD can be called any part of FSD if it requires the driver to be ready to grab the wheel at any moment because it can do one maneuver but not another. AP today is clearly understood that it follows no navigation so all it does is go straight in a lane.

Obviously, the car handing back control and making sure you know you're in control is something Tesla will have to figure out. AP's handoff is the best I've seen to date, and might be suitable to carry over to FSD.

Those features could each be introduced separately over time, building up to doing everything - that's how you have FSD features with FSDC.

The main difference between doing all of those things and FSD is simple, something you alluded to in your post, too - a car with some FSD features but not FSDC yet can do some or all of those things - but needs the driver to be paying attention and ready to intervene if something unexpected happens.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

So if it can stop at lights and signs, make 90 degree turns, and merge with traffic, then at what point does it not work, and require you to intervene, and how does it warn you of this? What is this missing that isn't FSD? Parking- the thing they promised earlier than FSD? Does it detect pedestrians when it goes to make a 90 degree turn? Seriously, how does Tesla tell you to "keep your hands on the wheel" as the car spins the wheel 360 degrees to make a turn and you hope it doesn't over or under steer?

I just don't see how FSD can be called any part of FSD if it requires the driver to be ready to grab the wheel at any moment because it can do one maneuver but not another. AP today is clearly understood that it follows no navigation so all it does is go straight in a lane.

You're using "and" when it's an "or". They could release nothing more than autosteer with stopping at stop signs and/or lights and that's an FSD feature. In practice , that's almost identical to what it does now with the exception of being able to handle you being the first person in line at the intersection.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

??? My AP1 car has no problem engaging Autopilot/Autosteer at 0 mph (provided I'm not holding down the brake pedal with my foot.)

I'm not sure what you mean about the stationary objects to know if I've got that, too.

I think I do agree with your larger point, though - there's no reason all FSDC development has to wait until all eAP development has finished.

They did need to wait until they got somewhere close to the AP1 feature set - pretty much everything has waited for that, including all of the promised 8.1 features that Elon last suggested we should be seeing this week (six weeks ago.)

Ah, I was under the impression that it couldnt. For stationary objects, I was referring to being able to recognize a car it's never seen move before(say, after going around a turn) that's stopped. From my understanding(again, it's possible I'm mistaken, but I've seen numerous people talk about this limitation), AP1 can't differentiate that car from the background and won't register it.

 

[Dr. Smoke]

Quick question to (sic) those that (sic) already payed (sic) for FSD

Sometimes I despair for the public education system...

 

[MarcusMaximus]

Sometimes I despair for the public education system...

Just a note: this being the internet, English isn't necessarily everyone's first language.

 

[Dr. Smoke]

These are not the errors of an EaaSL.

 

[Saghost]

Ah, I was under the impression that it couldnt. For stationary objects, I was referring to being able to recognize a car it's never seen move before(say, after going around a turn) that's stopped. From my understanding(again, it's possible I'm mistaken, but I've seen numerous people talk about this limitation), AP1 can't differentiate that car from the background and won't register it.

AP1 *usually* recognizes a stopped car it hadn't seen move before - an improvement from the typical ACC which won't.

There have been incidents where it failed to, especially with oddly patterned trucks that are only partly in the lane, however.

 

[dknisely]

Just consider your FSD purchase as a donation to Elon and be happy. You're never going to have FSD on any HW2 car.

Complete L5 FSD and things like self-driving uber are car that fetches you -- I agree, that won't happen on this hardware. However, my guess is that this HW will get substantially useful L4 FSD capabilities within two years (highway and perhaps major thoroughfares) and it will reach L3 in some situations next year. I do predict that will require a new compute complex, and initial purchasers are more likely to get that upgrade for free.

 

[whitex]

1. Are you going to buy it? Yes?

2.a What can you realistically do with money between now and when it's viable enough to a point you would purchase it?
2.b Can whatever you do with the funds cover the after-the-fact-purchase premium?
2.c What do you think will happen with pricing? Will it go up, go down, or stay the same?

Since you asked, investing the $8K or $10K in Tesla would more than pay for EAP+FSD post delivery, possibly for a whole new Tesla, *IF* Tesla gets FSD actually working as they imply it will (e.g. use as a car service for your family members) within any reasonable time, even if it takes AP3 or AP4 to get there. Think about out, if Tesla pulls this off their stock will soar! And if they don't, you can some or all of your money back from the stock, rather than have some useless unfinished feature.