New Southern California edison time of use rates

[David_Cary]

Ok. What I'm used to is first author is lead, last author is person with credentials who looks over the paper and has the name. I usually think that person has the least to do with writing the paper. But I'm not in the engineering field.

You only get 3.5 cents for excess on an annual basis. Just for comparison, we get zero and that is how most net metering rates are set.

You had a sweetheart plan and it changed. Guess what, my rate plan changed last month also. Market forces change. Electricity is dirt cheap and getting cheaper. I can understand that you purchased when you had a really good deal. It was far in excess of what the rest of the country gets. It was far in excess of rational market behavior. That is why I am such a pain and don't really feel for you.

CA promotes solar partly through the rate structure. Arguably it is government distortion of the market (not really arguable, it is). As solar decreases in price, less of an incentive is needed. Early adopter penalty I guess. Realize of course that the distortions are paid for by non solar generators. These people are poorer than you (for the most part).

Every solar incentive is just like EV incentives. Great goals but definitely represent robbing poor and middle class people to pay for our green purchases. Too bad that is how things work in this country. Soap box rant off.....

 

[David99]

I really wish this discussion would stay on topic as I'm in SoCal and I have a hard time figuring out what options are the best.

 

[JoeGray100]

I'm new to this thread but also drive an electric vehicle and have invested in solar. Here is what I sent to the CPUC today. I addressed this email to ora at cpuc.ca.gov

Dear Charmian,

As I mentioned in our phone call, those of us working with SCE for our electricity needs got a surprise recently in the form of a letter informing us of changes to the TOU-D-TEV rate plan. I've included a link below where some electric car enthusiasts are trying to understand this change. There is a sample of the letter that many of us are receiving from SCE included about half way down the page.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/40365-New-Southern-California-edison-time-of-use-rates

I would like to inquire whether or not the CPUC understands the negative effect this change will have on electric car owners that have also invested in solar panels for electric generation as many of us have. In short, the proposed changes will significantly reduce the amount of credit that our solar systems can earn on peak and therefore our solar systems will not reduce our total electric costs by the same amount once these changes to into effect. I don't know about others, but I modeled a 6 year ROI on my solar investment and now that's out the window!

If one does the math, currently SCE customers on the TOU-D-TEV earn a credit which I believe is 26 cents per KWH during peak and we pay 10 cents super off peak. Said another way, for every hour we produce in peak we earn 2.6 hours in super off peak usage. I purchased a solar system of a specific size less than 2 years ago based on these facts. I find it disturbing that in less than 2 years, the CPUC is allowing SCE to change the rules so drastically that my solar generation investment will no longer cover my electric costs. I will either have to increase the size of my solar system or simply pay more.

Was it CPUC's intention to allow SCE to penalize electric car owners who also invest in solar electric generation systems? Or, was CPUC unaware of how the proposed changes to the TOU-D-TEV rate plan from SCE would effect us?

Also, can I get specifics of the new plan so I may model how much this plan will increase my costs as an electric car and solar power owner?

Warmest Regards,
Joseph Gray

 

[miimura]

Well, you guys had better brace yourselves for more changes in the future. PG&E only guarantees continuing Net Metering while the installed base of distributed generation (nameplate rating) remains below 5% of grid peak demand. I'm sure SCE has stipulated something similar. How are you going to feel when the utility gives you a 1 year deadline to retire your net metering and goes to a Feed-In Tariff system where they only pay you half as much to feed in as to draw out. I know as soon as I get that letter I'm going to start scouring the junkyards for Leaf battery packs.

 

[mdemetri]

Well, you guys had better brace yourselves for more changes in the future. PG&E only guarantees continuing Net Metering while the installed base of distributed generation (nameplate rating) remains below 5% of grid peak demand. I'm sure SCE has stipulated something similar. How are you going to feel when the utility gives you a 1 year deadline to retire your net metering and goes to a Feed-In Tariff system where they only pay you half as much to feed in as to draw out. I know as soon as I get that letter I'm going to start scouring the junkyards for Leaf battery packs.

Not so. This was changed by AB 327 and a directive from Jerry Brown to CPUC to protect net metering for existing solar customers and future ones up to 5%. CPUC made its decision back in March that protected us for 20 years: "Today, the CPUC issued a strong final decision that allows customers who net meter under the current program to keep the current rules for 20 years from the year they go solar. This rule applies to the state’s 200,000 existing IOU solar customers plus any other IOU customers who go solar before July 2017 or before their utility hits the current 5% program cap.":tongue:

California Decision Creates Certainty for Solar Customers | Vote Solar

 

[miimura]

That is very good news. I had not heard that before.

 

[mdemetri]

Looks like SCE has added a 3rd new TOU plan that they say is best for those who have solar (at least I did not see this plan before). This is different than the A and B plan and has peak time from 12-6pm instead of 2-8pm. It also has two tiers like the old TOU-D-TEV plan, but only has on-peak (12-6pm) and off-peak (all other times); there is no super-off peak.

I think this new plan looks much better for those of us with Solar. I guess our complaining had the desired effect :wink:

Residential Rate Plans | Rates | Your Home | Home - SCE

 

[bonnie]

Moderator note: Moved out of Model S forum into California regional forum.

 

[qphan79]

It was always there but I am skeptical that this plan will be better for many of us. Those of us with electric cars will blow through the first tier within days each month and then be stuck paying the higher rates whether on or off peak. At least that's how I am interpreting it...

 

[JoeGray100]

Hello Again! I had a really nice chat with a supervisor from the rate payer advocacy office at CPUC. I have provided them with this thread and they are starting to look into this matter given the unique perspective that those of us with solar and electric vehicles have. We are an early adopter group and I suspect one that the state would wish to protect. I think it would have been obvious to SCE that this new rate program would have a negative effect on EV / Solar owners. There should be a notice period in which the effected customer base has the opportunity to weigh into the conversation so the CPUC, SCE, etc., can hear our side before adopting changes to rate programs such as this. I for one never received a notice from SCE regarding their plan to propose such a rate change nor did I have the opportunity to be part of the conversation as a customer and advocate for EV / Solar owners. The next step is this process is to organize our group and take action that brings attention to the facts. It would be wonderful if we had a corporate sponsor in Tesla to help organize and direct this effort. I think since this is a Tesla sponsored thread, they should have the first opportunity. I will contact Tesla corporate and bring this matter to their attention. If they wish to spearhead this effort, myself and others would be happy to assist. I think it will be hard to do this without creating a website to educate the public, advocacy groups, members of the CA Legislature, etc. Stay tuned, hopefully we can get something live and develop an effective plan to make sure our voice is heard!

 

[miimura]

A good first step is for people to use real data to calculate the effect of the different rate schedules on their usage patterns. I have a spreadsheet that calculates PG&E rates and I would be happy to help adapt it to the SCE rate structure. The first step is to get access to your own SmartMeter data. Is that readily available online for SCE customers?

As an example of what the spreadsheet can do, see the thread I posted about the incremental cost of charging on PG&E.

 

[qphan79]

Very impressed with the efforts that some of you have been putting in to call attention to this issue!

 

[Ericsch]

Here's my take on the new SoCalEd TOU options, which was first posted to another Tesla forum:

"I have 3KW of Solar PV and an S85. It looks to me that any of the three new Time-Of-Use Options (we must pick one) will screw me royally. First of all, with Options A and B, peak rate starts only at 2PM, which means that the first 62% of the solar-generating day will be credited at the off-peak rate which is 37% LOWER than peak rate. Considering that this timing eliminates the 4 peak-generation hours around noon, SCE has given itself a nearly 50% discount on the generation credits they have to pay in the first 62% of the solar day. This slashes by 1/3 the economic payback benefit of having solar panels on the roof of my house. Bas...ds! On top of that, Option A has a sneaky little thing called "Baseline allocation Credit" of -0.10/KWh. I haven't been able to find an official definition of this, but I'm guessing it means that my On-peak solar generation credit will be 0.10/KWh LOWER than the 0.40 rate they quote for On-Peak. And of course, since I'm generating instead of consuming, I'll never get out of "Baseline". Bas___ds!

Option C is only slightly less of a screw-job for solar owners, in that SCE shorts us on solar-gen credits only until noon instead of 2PM, but for us with a Tesla charging at night, Option C has NO Super off-peak rate at all, and the lowest rate (Off-peak) starts at .13/KWh and quickly shoots up to 0.27/KWh after the first few full Tesla charges in the month. SOOOO unless you are driving your Tesla VERY little, Plan C is the WORST of the 3 plans, regardless of whether you have solar or not.


For those of you who do NOT have solar, you will still have to choose between TOU Option A and B. Both of them have the same Super-off-peak rate of 0.11/KWh, and the timeframe for that rate is now 10PM to 8AM. At least that part is a break for Tesla owners who may need a longer charge period depending on charging capacity of their home charger. After that, choosing between Option A and B depends on how much On-Peak and Off-peak power you use. If you use a TON of On-peak power (i.e. air conditioning a large house in hot climates) Option B might be better, even with the additional $16/month "customer charge" they gouge you with. If you are a moderate-to-low electric consumer, Option A may be better for you.


Whichever TOU option you choose, if you have both Tesla and solar, you will likely pay more for your overall power bill than before. Seems to me that the Public Utilities Commission of California is letting SoCalEd get away with Bloody Murder----Again! And the worst of it is being borne by solar adopters who are being doubly screwed!!"

Somebody "Git a rope".

It would be nice if Tesla, or Elon himself, would use some of its political clout to slam the Cal PUC. I'm beginning to believe that the PUC members wouldn't recognize a KiloWatt-Hour if it bit them in the butt But maybe they would feel it politically if Elon would speak up for us!

 

[jstepy]

I too came home from vacation to find the letter from SCE stating I would be switched automatically come February. I have decided to switch back to the standard TOU rate that does not include a super-off peak rate and is on-peak only from 12pm-6pm week days. This was the plan I was on prior to owning a tesla and it worked well with my panels. I was very excited about having the extra two hours of on-peak production 10 am to noon when I first signed up with the Tesla TOU-EV rate but SCE seemed to wise up on this. I am willing to sacrifice the the super off-peak rate to have a much more usable on-peak solar production time (12-6). From what I see off-peak vs super off-peak is only a savings of 2 cents a kWh. I definitely don't want to be paying on-peak rates from 6pm-8pm when all the kids are home watching TV and dinners cooking in the oven etc.

Edit: Well honestly I am confused on what plan is best... I did not realize how much Off-peak jumps when you hit Tier 2 levels... This pretty much blows... Anyone else have any suggestions?

 

[miimura]

If it was me and SCE was going to kick me off a rate plan, I would request a recalculation of my last full year of metered usage on each of the available plans. Something is seriously wrong if they can't or won't do it, especially when SmartMeter data is available.

 

[jstepy]

Well after talking to my friend who is a licensed electrician I think I am going to go the route of getting a separate meter installed just for the Tesla and have the EV-1 rate which is 11 cents a kWh off peak times. Then I am going to go with the standard TOU DT plan that is 12 to 6pm On-Peak and everything else Off-Peak. I will no longer need the Super-Off Peak as the Tesla will get that rate now with it's own meter.

I just can't do the 2 to 8 pm On-Peak as my prime solar production is from 10-4 range.

Does this sound like a bad plan of attack? I will be getting the best friend charge on getting the meter installed... pretty much just materials.

 

[miimura]

In your situation, getting the second meter sounds like a good idea. Recovering the cost of the second meter at a couple hundred dollars is much easier than recovering a couple thousand dollars that it would cost most people.

 

[Gregsbeach]

Having multiple homes in different counties in California, I find it interesting that the SCE off peak charging rate was 10-11c/KW and the SDG&E rate is 19c.....amazing 80% difference. Does the CPUC not look at stuff like this?

 

[fengshui]

For those of you looking for more information on this, there's lots of good documents on the SCE CPUC Application Pages:
A timeline of the changes to rates in this and coming years:
http://www3.sce.com/sscc/law/dis/db... OIR - SCE-130 Project Timeline Testimony.pdf
The original application for these changes (from 2013):
http://www3.sce.com/sscc/law/dis/db... of its 2013 Rate Design Window Proposals.pdf
Their update and response to the comments they received at that time:
http://www3.sce.com/sscc/law/dis/db...tion for Approval of Settlement Agreement.pdf

The CPUC Document search page is here: CPUC Open Proceedings
Both "R.12-06-013" and "A.13-12-015" will find documents relating to these and future changes.

These changes have been in the works for some time.

 

[RubberToe]

Having multiple homes in different counties in California, I find it interesting that the SCE off peak charging rate was 10-11c/KW and the SDG&E rate is 19c.....amazing 80% difference. Does the CPUC not look at stuff like this?

Pasadena is $0.25

RT