My 2 day old P85D suddenly died in the middle of an intersection

[Saghost]

Anyway we are getting way off topic, so maybe we need a "Wife(/Girlfriend/Partner) Acceptance Factor" thread.

That's interesting. On the Volt forums, we mostly have Wife/girlfriend(or husband/boyfriend, it's gone both ways) stole my Volt threads. I'm kinda surprised that isn't the more common story here, too.
Walter

 

[tga]

As a former Porsche owner, I got a chuckle out of that. You might want to familiarize yourself with their fora. Boxster, Cayman, Carrera GT and Cayenne all have their issues.

I'm a big Porsche fan (own 2), but 2 biggies that come to mind: 991 GT3 self destructing con rods resulting in engine fires and 986/996 IMS bearing failures resulting in repair bill greater than the car's (undamaged) value.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

As far as I can tell, all the infrastructure I need for my daily needs and my normal trips up and down the east coast USA already exists. I have a HPWC at my house, I have a J1772 at my family destination in NJ, a 14-50 outlet at a family destination in NC, and superchargers close enough for everything else. After Charlotte, NC supercharger opens, I'll never be more than 100 miles from one 99.99% of the time, so I can always hop back on the supercharger network from wherever I am. So, if I get stranded somewhere, I personally can't blame the infrastructure, or lack thereof.

Perfectly fair enough, of course. East coast U.S., let alone the west, is probably quite a bit more mature EV territory than some other places in the world, though, so that is something that explains reactions from others. One issue on many European countries is the scarcity of superchargers and public infrastructure built largely on DC chargers Tesla doesn't currently support. CHAdeMO adapter will eventually help a lot, but there is still the frankenplug question lingering, where at least I am yet to see a Tesla solution. Think of this from the point of view of non-technical person, even if they learn where the chargers are, that's not enough, they have to learn where the right kinds of chargers are. It is not too hard if one is so inclined, but if the whole topic is off-putting and adds an unwanted hindrance to everyday transport, reaction is different.

I always find the argument that if a gas station is out of service you can just move on to the next one a very funny one. Really, that's not going to help you if you pulled into that gas station with not enough left in the tank and not enough fuel to make it to the next gas station... (then of course the ICE advocate will start to argue how unlikely that would be in an ICE, blah blah...)

The point is it's just the same scenario as pulling into a charging station with no range left to find the charger doesn't work. As a non-EV/ICE statement: If you arrive at your vehicle's refueling station with no fuel, you're not going to make it to the next refueling station. People need to just stop making the argument that there are plenty of gas stations and thus that is an argument against EVs... it's a very sad argument.

Some of arguments like that, certainly, is "in people's heads". The issue of becoming accustomed to something and resisting change to the unknown or rare is certainly partially an emotional one. No argument from me there.

That said, gas stations infrastructure in an average country is significantly denser than the EV charging infrastructure currently is. In some places the disparity is larger than in others. I don't know or need to know where smac lives, but he mentioned UK and I would expect that within his route home and even within those 2 miles from his home, probably several gas stations exist where Tesla compatible public charging stations may be near non-existent to non-existent. If he had come to his driveway with 2 miles of range in an ICE, I am quite confident he could reach more than one gas station if he lives in an at least somewhat urban setting like increasing number of the world's population does (an ICE he probably would have filled up on the way). Instead, he had to call friends for a charge, because I assume no alternate charger existed. If there was a public EV charger nearby, he wouldn't have to bother friends with it.

Also: an ICE is much less likely to arrive to a gas station so low on gas, because they have higher range than EVs in general, are faster to fill up on the way (so you are more likely to do it) and places to fill them are less scarce. I doubt smac would have arrived home with 2 miles range on his ICE in this particular scenario. If an ICE gets that low on range it is often simply due to laziness or inattention (excluding some long-range wilderness drivers), on an EV it is often some more compelling reason that is harder to avoid in the first place.

I don't see why people should stop using the size of the support infrastructure as an argument. I see infrastructure as instrumental to the functionality of any mode of transport - and thus a very valid argument. In this way, one can also make arguments towards the opposite: EVs have a sizeable home-charging infrastructure opportunity ICEs lack, so it is a not a black or white issue. For EVs to win the day, support infrastructure is an important challenge that must be solved, early adopters willing to live through the pains does not a mass market make.

Luckily, obviously, Tesla is well aware of the infrastructure issue and their efforts in this area are commendable - and of surprisingly global reach - for such a relatively small start-up. It is just not yet enough for the likes osama's, smac's and my wives.

 

[tga]

But the interesting assertion posed by osama is, does Tesla break more often - on average - than a larger-volume ICE from a traditional manufacturer?

Well, all that's really important in his case is perception (specifically his wife's). Not necessarily reality. Assuming both his P85D and her Cayenne are issue free from here on out, it would be interesting to see if/how her perception changes with time.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Well, all that's really important in his case is perception (specifically his wife's). Not necessarily reality. Assuming both his P85D and her Cayenne are issue free from here on out, it would be interesting to see if/how her perception changes with time.

For osama's family's Tesla adoptions sake should one hope the Porsche fails a lot (safely)?

Edit: You are, of course, right about osama's wife's perception but beyond that, it is also an interesting factual question how failure rates of BEVs and Teslas compare to ICEs from traditional manufacturers. Harder to answer, of course, especially so little history with EVs and so much industry noise and emotion around the topic.

 

[sandpiper]

TBM 850. It has the newer PT6A-66D variant. I am not aware of any failures of the 66D due to the fuel system.

Nice. I have a friend who had an 850. Great machine.... I love the range. Until a few months back I had a Cessna 340a. But honestly I was getting a bit bored with aviation, and not flying enough hours to keep current in a complex old twin like the 340.

 

[wk057]

Think of this from the point of view of non-technical person, even if they learn where the chargers are, that's not enough, they have to learn where the right kinds of chargers are. It is not too hard if one is so inclined, but if the whole topic is off-putting and adds an unwanted hindrance to everyday transport, reaction is different.

I guess I'll just pull up to any pump at any gas station and start fueling an ICE then, right? So, you mean like unleaded fuel only? 87, 89, 93? No diesel or kerosene?

Some of arguments like that, certainly, is "in people's heads". The issue of becoming accustomed to something and resisting change to the unknown or rare is certainly partially an emotional one. No argument from me there.

That said, gas stations infrastructure in an average country is significantly denser than the EV charging infrastructure currently is. In some places the disparity is larger than in others. I don't know or need to know where smac lives, but he mentioned UK and I would expect that within his route home and even within those 2 miles from his home, probably several gas stations exist where Tesla compatible public charging stations may be near non-existent to non-existent. If he had come to his driveway with 2 miles of range in an ICE, I am quite confident he could reach more than one gas station if he lives in an at least somewhat urban setting like increasing number of the world's population does (an ICE he probably would have filled up on the way). Instead, he had to call friends for a charge, because I assume no alternate charger existed. If there was a public EV charger nearby, he wouldn't have to bother friends with it.

Also: an ICE is much less likely to arrive to a gas station so low on gas, because they have higher range than EVs in general, are faster to fill up on the way (so you are more likely to do it) and places to fill them are less scarce. I doubt smac would have arrived home with 2 miles range on his ICE in this particular scenario. If an ICE gets that low on range it is often simply due to laziness or inattention (excluding some long-range wilderness drivers), on an EV it is often some more compelling reason.

I don't see why people should stop using the size of the support infrastructure as an argument. I see infrastructure as instrumental to the functionality of any mode of transport - and thus a very valid argument. In this way, one can also make arguments towards the opposite: EVs have a sizeable home-charging infrastructure opportunity ICEs lack, so it is a not a black or white issue. For EVs to win the day, support infrastructure is an important challenge that must be solved, early adopters willing to live through the pains does not a mass market make.

Luckily, obviously, Tesla is well aware of the infrastructure issue and their efforts in this area are commendable - and of surprisingly global reach - for such a relatively small start-up. It is just not yet enough for the likes osama's, smac's and my wives.

Every outlet is a potential source of fuel for an EV. I guarantee there are more outlets than gas stations. Higher capacity outlets are another story, but lets not forget that we all basically have a personal fueling stations.

smac's friend didn't have to have anything special to help refuel the Model S. I'm confused as to why an extension cord couldn't have been used in this particular scenario, but that's besides the point.

A quick Googling finds this funny news story: More Drivers Running Out Of Gas CBS Pittsburgh

Do I want more charging infrastructure? Sure! Bring it on. Do I need it? Nope.

It would make little to no sense to have superchargers littered around the country as much as gas stations are when on a regular basis EV owners generally do not need to refuel anywhere but their garage or driveway. That type of infrastructure should never exist, IMO, again making such comparisons pretty silly to me. When an EV owner leaves their house, they generally leave with a full "tank". If they're going to go beyond the vehicle's range, they're going to need to stop and get more fuel. This applies to any vehicle, obviously. Considering a round trip of anything 75 miles out or less is simple even in a 60, I'd say ~80-100 mile supercharging spacing would make perfect sense. If you're never more than half of a round trip distance away from a supercharger, then you're trips are covered. At that point we'll in no way need gas-station sized infrastructure...

(As a fun note, on supercharge.info I like setting the circles to 100 miles, and seeing where they overlap to see approximately what destinations are possible using only superchargers.)

 

[AnxietyRanger]

wk057: Of course there are fuel types but charging EVs is still less standardized than ICEs, when it comes to public chargers. In a way, not even Tesla's superchargers are really helpful to this issue as they work for a specific brand only. In Europe there are fast-charging standardization efforts but Tesla does not yet support those DC chargers. So it is still a bit of a mess of adapters and incompatibilities that are far less in the ICE world. This will get sorted out eventually but until then I expect an impact on adoption.

As for BEV drivers charging at home and at destination, that of course is a unique benefit and opportunity for BEVs compared to ICEs. But again there, realistically, it is not that simple yet. Not all apartment and work locations allow readily available solutions for charging and if the target is a public location, they may or may not have compatible charging there or may not have fast-enough charging. In private houses a long extension cord surely goes a long way but not so in many apartments or public buildings or if you need to charge fast (not over night or during work day but say during a 60 min meeting). This will get sorted out eventually but until then a hindrance to adoption.

smac mentioned no destination fast charging and lacking charge point on route as examples of the current dilemma.

Edit: I didn't mean to suggest the size of public EV infrastructure would need to match that of gas stations. I merely meant it needs to large enough to stop being a hindrance on adoption. The style and size of the EV charging infrastructure can, of course, differ from ICE infrastructure where applicable. Currently in many places the infrastructure is not large enough to allow public charging or perhaps even private.

 

[smac]

I guess I'll just pull up to any pump at any gas station and start fueling an ICE then, right? So, you mean like unleaded fuel only? 87, 89, 93? No diesel or kerosene?



Every outlet is a potential source of fuel for an EV. I guarantee there are more outlets than gas stations. Higher capacity outlets are another story, but lets not forget that we all basically have a personal fueling stations.

smac's friend didn't have to have anything special to help refuel the Model S. I'm confused as to why an extension cord couldn't have been used in this particular scenario, but that's besides the point.

A quick Googling finds this funny news story: More Drivers Running Out Of Gas CBS Pittsburgh

Do I want more charging infrastructure? Sure! Bring it on. Do I need it? Nope.

It would make little to no sense to have superchargers littered around the country as much as gas stations are when on a regular basis EV owners generally do not need to refuel anywhere but their garage or driveway. That type of infrastructure should never exist, IMO, again making such comparisons pretty silly to me. When an EV owner leaves their house, they generally leave with a full "tank". If they're going to go beyond the vehicle's range, they're going to need to stop and get more fuel. This applies to any vehicle, obviously. Considering a round trip of anything 75 miles out or less is simple even in a 60, I'd say ~80-100 mile supercharging spacing would make perfect sense. If you're never more than half of a round trip distance away from a supercharger, then you're trips are covered. At that point we'll in no way need gas-station sized infrastructure...

(As a fun note, on supercharge.info I like setting the circles to 100 miles, and seeing where they overlap to see approximately what destinations are possible using only superchargers.)

I did need something special a portable EVSE, when I bought my car the only supplied charging solution was a Type-2 to Type-2 cable.. fortunately I had bought a 10A 240V plug-in charger, so yes now every outlet is a "gas station", just one that drips fuel out the end of the pump when you pull the lever There are some UK owners that are comfortable without having a UMC / portable unit (mainly because they have 85s, and live near the Superchargers which are heavily weighted round London) but being 70 miles from the nearest Supercharger has put a different slant on this for me.

In terms of an extension cord, my drive way is over 100 yards long and partially shared between 2 properties, and the car would have to be left on a pavement with a wire draping across as a trip hazard, so not really practical. In contrast my friends house has a nice short flat drive leading straight onto a proper road!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I know a few apartment dwellers whose car parks do not allow charging EVs, at least not yet. One of these people is categorically against buying an EV because of this, the other is making by on public AC chargers nearby. So clearly depends on individual conditions how they can and do charge and how much inconvenience they can handle. Public AC charging surely takes patience!

 

[wk057]

I know a few apartment dwellers whose car parks do not allow charging EVs, at least not yet. One of these people is categorically against buying an EV because of this, the other is making by on public AC chargers nearby. So clearly depends on individual conditions how they can and do charge and how much inconvenience they can handle. Public AC charging surely takes patience!

I'm not saying there are no problems with adoption. I'm just saying that the reality of the situation, specifically with Tesla, is not nearly as horrible as people make it out to be. The reason we'll end up with 100,000 superchargers isn't because we need them for adoption, it'll be because people will perceive that they're needed for adoption... and even then when there is a supercharger on every corner people will find something else to complain about.

As for the apartment dweller... seems to not be an issue with the BEV, but with the apartment.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'm not saying there are no problems with adoption. I'm just saying that the reality of the situation, specifically with Tesla, is not nearly as horrible as people make it out to be. The reason we'll end up with 100,000 superchargers isn't because we need them for adoption, it'll be because people will perceive that they're needed for adoption... and even then when there is a supercharger on every corner people will find something else to complain about.

As for the apartment dweller... seems to not be an issue with the BEV, but with the apartment.

Yep, I agree we don't need a supercharger on every corner although would be nice. The infrastructure will evolve differently from gas stations and that's okay. Merely that the infrastructure is not there yet in many places. I understand that for your area it seems to be in place, so probably that helps with adoption there.

As for the apartment, obviously it is an issue with the apartment, but it is also a ground-reality kind of thing that ICE owners don't have to think about - for then home-"charging" is not an issue, nor a requirement. For BEV use, home charging is pretty important, especially as long as average BEV ranges are so much below ICE ranges (and battery depletion when parked especially in cold is an issue). But of course that same home charging is also a great benefit and convenience at best.

 

[bollar]

I guess I'll just pull up to any pump at any gas station and start fueling an ICE then, right? So, you mean like unleaded fuel only? 87, 89, 93? No diesel or kerosene?

Heh. At some point in the 70s, my parents bought a Mercedes 240D and the nearest Diesel station was 30 miles away. I recall many a time where, as a barely tween, I stood in the cold and topped off the tank with the truck-sized hose.

Destination charging is still an issue that needs to be addressed. In Texas, CHAdeMO would certainly help, as there are many of those stations here. In the meantime, I get at least 1-2 visitors a month from Austin looking to get enough charge to make it back to the Bellmead SC without having to endure a Blink charge around Dallas. Same for me when I go to Houston -- Huntsville is just too far away to accommodate a couple of days of in-Houston driving and make it back out.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

Despite Tesla's breakneck pace of innovation, they fall to the middle of the pack on overall reliability in Consumer Reports' data.

On "drive system" reliability, in particular (most relevant to this thread), Tesla has shown continual improvement, going from "average" for '12, "good" for '13, to "better" (their top rating) for the '14 model year.

Model specific "predictive reliability" ratings for cars discussed in this thread:
Porsche Cayenne - 22% above average
Tesla Model S - 6% below average
Porsche 911 - 9% below average

By way of comparison, all of the cars from Lexus in the survey are at %57 above average and higher, far and away more reliable than comparable models from Porsche, Tesla, BMW, Mercedes, or Audi. Mercedes and BMW by they way make some real stinkers, way below average (and Tesla).

Bottom line, if you want a reliable car, by a Lexus. If you want an average reliable car buy an Audi, Porsche, or Tesla. If you want a below average buy a BMW or Mercedes.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Thank you, EarlyAdopter. Good to know.

 

[smac]

Destination charging is still an issue that needs to be addressed. In Texas, CHAdeMO would certainly help, as there are many of those stations here. In the meantime, I get at least 1-2 visitors a month from Austin looking to get enough charge to make it back to the Bellmead SC without having to endure a Blink charge around Dallas. Same for me when I go to Houston -- Huntsville is just too far away to accommodate a couple of days of in-Houston driving and make it back out.

Completely agree. But maybe for slightly different reasons: I live in the middle of the UK. I can get to pretty much all the major cities on a single charge (even in a 60). If I'm going to another city, it's normally for work, and I would travel down the night before and involve an overnight stay in a hotel somewhere. Finding somewhere to park the car that can also charge would be perfect for me, and I'd pretty much never need a Supercharger!

As it stands charging bays are a limited resource (often blocked by ICE's), and many are time restricted bays

Instead of one Supercharger in London, if Tesla rented a complete storey in a private car park and installed slow/overnight charging in every bay sufficient to charge a large number of cars, the results would be fascinating. I'd certainly pay to use it, and even be prepared to book in advance to guarantee a slot!

We are way off topic now, and maybe we should start a new thread.

 

[smac]

Bottom line, if you want a reliable car, by a Lexus. If you want an average reliable car buy an Audi, Porsche, or Tesla. If you want a below average buy a BMW or Mercedes.

Completely agree... my Father had a Gen 2 LS400's which he kept up until last year. EVERYTHING on that car still worked, no creaks, squeaks or weird noises. Man did it have a lot of electrical mechanical things to go wrong compared to a Model S, none of which caused a spot of bother... He ended up giving it to my step sister, and it's still running perfectly.

He's just bought another which is 5 years old already and said, I don't need a new one, that'll do me until I die

 

[gpetti]

I think when we do comparatives between different car models you have to compare the reliability between new model types. The P85D is a brand new model with many technical innovations over the previous model. Although this particular issue may one of the lseemingly ong standing 12V problems, it is also possible that the front motor has added new variables to this. Prior to driving Tesla I have had about 4 different infinitis. Most recently I had a G37X which was extremely reliable being a model with several years of deployment with very few changes and a power train that has been constant for several years. A couple of years before that I had a. new M37X in its first year of release. I had several issues including an electrical problem that left me with a dead battery a couple of times. I also got the car formally called J35x which was the first year of that model. It didn't fail catastrophically but it had several recalls, some with real safety issues behind them. Even the original Tesla model S design has been out less time than a G37 but for anyone worried about reliability it might be a better bet then a P85D. Hopefully the P85D is lowering the amount of bleeding edge technology for the model x.

 

[McMuggets]

An interesting article I read today. A view from the investment community the Motley Fool:

4 Things I Learned Driving a Tesla for 10,000 Miles (TSLA)

 

[jerry33]

I think when we do comparatives between different car models you have to compare the reliability between new model types. The P85D is a brand new model with many technical innovations over the previous model. Although this particular issue may one of the lseemingly ong standing 12V problems.

The Prius and and Leaf also had/have their share of 12V battery problems. It was the number one show stopper on the Prius forum for many years (I don't follow anymore, so I don't know the current state). Some Leaf owners put a battery quick switch on their car to disconnect and reconnect it. Yes, my Model S has been in a few times for minor items (no drive train issues though), but so did my 2004 Prius--it even stopped once while I was driving (fortunately, I read the forums and knew that all I had to do was to power cycle to fix, and Toyota did come out with a firmware upgrade that permanently fixed it.). And compared to VW TDI which had to be towed several times for 12V battery issues, and was in the shop almost every month for the entire time I had it--it worked out to 22 cents per mile for maintenance alone. Well, the Model S is every bit as reliable as any other car.