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My 2 day old P85D suddenly died in the middle of an intersection

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In the Spring of 2013, I was driving our Mercedes 2012 ML 350 on vacation in Beverly Hills hundreds of miles away from home when I experienced a catastrophic power steering unit failure while driving. It's a good thing I was driving (instead of my wife) as I was barely able to steer the vehicle on city streets without power steering to the local Benz store. We left it there and they had to replace the unit, which had to be ordered. Mercedes paid for a good rental car to continue our trip and later drive home to SF Bay Area.

It was a common problem on Mercs, my friend's 2013 SL did the same thing.

His died whilst driving like yours, then "fixed" itself whilst the car was left overnight for collection. They replaced his too. The dealership had seen these symptoms on numerous cars across the range before, and had diagnosed a software glitch in the EPS unit.

So not every manufacturer is perfect, and given the tech involved in modern cars it's amazing how reliable they are in general!
 
A few comments:

The contactors are a single point of failure in an EV, but modern ICEs have fuel cutoff systems that are activated in a severe accident, so a fault could cause them to lose access to their power source, too.

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The 12V battery in the Model S is under much more strain than the one in an ICE, because the vampire drain is roughly 1000x higher in the Model S (50W vs. 50 mW). This requires that the 12V battery drains and then is recharged much more than the ICE battery, which is only used a few times a day, when starting the car.

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In my nearly 40 years of driving, I've had only one incident where a failure left me without power while driving: an electronic ignition module, which had been replace just a month earlier, failed without warning in the middle of the road. So, in my limited experience, that's quite a rare occurrence.

My 2007 Camry Hybrid, purchased during its first year of production, was quite reliable: in 8 years and 120K miles there were no power-train or other failures that made it undrivable. In fact, it seems that the Prius/Camry hybrids, which replace the torque converter and transmission with a motor-generator torque/speed converter, are at least as reliable, and possibly more reliable than the similar ICE models. The hybrid reduces the demands on the ICE engine, and the motor-generator is both simpler and more reliable than the conventional transmission.

In contrast, in 16 months, my Model S has been serviced more than a half dozen times, sometimes for body issues (misplaced moldings, leaking seals, impact protection for the battery) and sometimes for drivetrain issues: a mis-installed battery connector, the proactive contactor replacement, and now, while the contactors are being replaced, they've decided to replace the drive unit. Only once has Tesla provided a Model S loaner: every other time they've offered to rent a car from Enterprise, which I usually decline as I have better options.

I've also had about three Ranger visits: once to try to fix the leaking reverse-light applique seals (eventually replaced at the service center), once to try to find and fix some annoying rattles (more were fixed later at the service center), and once to replace the 12V battery after it started asking to be replaced.

I guess it's a good thing that Tesla has just opened a service center only a two-hour drive from my home, making the most recent service somewhat more convenient that the prior 3+ hour trips each way.

I suspect that I've had more problems than average, and certainly more problems than I've experienced in my more plebeian vehicles, so I do feel that the car hadn't (in September, 2013) been built with the same level of experience and quality of more mainstream cars. Tesla has made up for this with exceptional performance, both on the road, and in the service department.

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More generally, electronic hardware tends to either work or not work (software is another matter). I expect that there are many single points of failure in the Model S, from the contactors, the cables and connectors, the motor control circuits, to the power electronics in the motor drive circuits. Just like my electronic ignition module of many years ago, I expect that an electronic/electrical failure could easily cause a complete loss of power. I take it on faith that Tesla's designers have sufficient margins in their designs that the MTBF is 10,000+ hours (a quarter million miles or so).

Note that if the MTBF is 10,000 hours, and there are 30,000 cars on the road an average of 3 of them will fail each hour. Dramatically oversimplifying, 3 of them will fail in the first hour of use after delivery, and a few dozen of them might have failed in their first week. So, some owners will have such unfortunate stories: statistics almost guarantee it.

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My experience is not "average". Neither is yours.
 
Something went wrong in the car. Some electronics made a decision: It
is safer to stop in the middle of an intersection than continue.
Later service did not find anything wrong in the car.

At least in this case an override button would have been useful.


Perhaps something like this:

If main battery relay opens:
- Computer sends an error message to Tesla motors

- and displays text:
Main battery relay opened.
Reason: unknown
Resetting might cause serious damage to the car.

- and 4 large buttons:
1: Reset and continue driving with front motor only with limited power.
2: Reset and continue driving with rear motor only with limited power.
3: Disable parking brake and shut down most electronics.
Car can be pushed. But it might roll away.
4: Enable parking brake and shut down most electronics.
Car wont roll away, but it cannot be pushed or loaded to trailer.


If you agree, you are free to correct my English and send this to Tesla
motors. (I don't have the car. )

Relay opening doesn't necessary damage it. Because all current is
taken through high power transistors. Those can react very quickly.
There is also practically no inductance between battery and
those transistors.

I agree with AoneOne's probability calculations. 60000 MS delivered,
so rare problems happen to somebody.
 
Something went wrong in the car. Some electronics made a decision: It
is safer to stop in the middle of an intersection than continue.
Later service did not find anything wrong in the car.

At least in this case an override button would have been useful.


Perhaps something like this:

If main battery relay opens:
- Computer sends an error message to Tesla motors

- and displays text:
Main battery relay opened.
Reason: unknown
Resetting might cause serious damage to the car.

- and 4 large buttons:
1: Reset and continue driving with front motor only with limited power.
2: Reset and continue driving with rear motor only with limited power.
3: Disable parking brake and shut down most electronics.
Car can be pushed. But it might roll away.
4: Enable parking brake and shut down most electronics.
Car wont roll away, but it cannot be pushed or loaded to trailer.


If you agree, you are free to correct my English and send this to Tesla
motors. (I don't have the car. )

Relay opening doesn't necessary damage it. Because all current is
taken through high power transistors. Those can react very quickly.
There is also practically no inductance between battery and
those transistors.

I agree with AoneOne's probability calculations. 60000 MS delivered,
so rare problems happen to somebody.

Because, when you lose all propulsion, you want to be distracted by four large touch screen buttons when you're already in a panic? No thanks.
 
AmpedRealtor,

It is absolutely essential to protect battery against short circuit.
It is equally important to disconnect battery after an accident. Same
relay can do both. Nothing man made is 100% reliable, so with some
small probability you could end up in middle of an intersection
without power. MS is so heavy that if road is not smooth you cannot
push it. Now, do you want to panic, knowing that there is absolutely
nothing you can do or would you like to try to reset that relay?

If problem is real, relay will open again. This might cause small
damage somewhere. Being stuck in wrong place could destroy car
completely.

Gasoline cars have device to disconnect fuel supply in an accident.
How many knows how to reset it? It is explained in owners manual.
 
AmpedRealtor,

It is absolutely essential to protect battery against short circuit.
It is equally important to disconnect battery after an accident. Same
relay can do both. Nothing man made is 100% reliable, so with some
small probability you could end up in middle of an intersection
without power. MS is so heavy that if road is not smooth you cannot
push it. Now, do you want to panic, knowing that there is absolutely
nothing you can do or would you like to try to reset that relay?

If problem is real, relay will open again. This might cause small
damage somewhere. Being stuck in wrong place could destroy car
completely.

Gasoline cars have device to disconnect fuel supply in an accident.
How many knows how to reset it? It is explained in owners manual.

I agree with jkn. It is better to allow customers to at least attempt to put the car in limp-home mode than to force it to be shut down until it is towed. The car may theoretically come to a stop in the middle of an interstate with no shoulder, which could easily be deadly.

Yes, fuel cutoff happens after a severe accident -- but there was no accident.

At your house, if the main breaker trips, you can still turn it back on -- and if there is a major fault, it will just trip again, but you can at least attempt this before calling the electrician.
 
The car may theoretically come to a stop in the middle of an interstate with no shoulder, which could easily be deadly.

When the contactors open the car has no load on either motor anymore and both are free rolling, so at highway speeds this would give someone plenty of time to coast over to somewhere safer. It's not like the contactors open and the car comes to a dead stop...
 
My Porsche Cayman died a few weeks ago. Was driving around 60 MPH on a highway. All the lights on the dash started flashing and within a minute or two, it became immobilized. Took about 1-2 hours for tow truck and a week for repair. Apparently the alternator died. Running fine now (but spending more time in the garage now that I have the Tesla!)
 
When the contactors open the car has no load on either motor anymore and both are free rolling, so at highway speeds this would give someone plenty of time to coast over to somewhere safer. It's not like the contactors open and the car comes to a dead stop...

There are some sections of some highways that have no shoulders for miles ... Yeah, it is a problem to break down in any car, but being stuck because of open contactors is a pretty dumb reason.
 
Yeah, it is a problem to break down in any car, but being stuck because of open contactors is a pretty dumb reason.

Not any dumber than running out of gas, having a fuel pump fail, having an alternator fail, water pump fails, and any other hundreds of things that can go wrong and sometimes do go wrong. Heck, I've been stuck on the side of a major highway, at night, during a bad rain storm because my wiper motor decided to give up the ghost. EVs are going to have different possible reasons for breaking down than ICE cars. We'll all get used to it in time.
 
New models often start out with high repair rates, and then improve as the manufacturer identifies and addresses common problems.

This is very applicable. I can list off many problems with the Signatures whch don't happen with later cars, and probably half a dozen problems common to cars shipped through the first half of 2013 but nonexistent later. These were all fixed by redesigns or supplier changes.

The 'main contactor opening' problems are now quite rare but very serious, so I understand why people are freaking out about it. I think Tesla hasn't worked out why it's happening yet, which should be a top priority.

Despite Tesla's breakneck pace of innovation, they fall to the middle of the pack on overall reliability in Consumer Reports' data.

On "drive system" reliability, in particular (most relevant to this thread), Tesla has shown continual improvement, going from "average" for '12, "good" for '13, to "better" (their top rating) for the '14 model year.

This really shouldn't surprise anyone. Cars from the beginning of a production run are less reliable, pretty much always.

It's probably not good to be one of the beta-testers for the 85D either. Next year's will probably be more reliable.

I actually had a Signature reservation, cancelled it, and got back in line (I got a February 2013 Model S). I do not regret the decision. I still had some early-model issues (such as the 'loose chargeport', which trashed three UMCs, and the jackhammer-noisy compressor, which needed the shroud retrofit), and Tesla proactively made a bunch of TSB fixes before I had other problems due to early design flaws (12V battery, aluminum corrosion, etc.)

At this rate, I would expect the reliability of the 2015 cars to be above average.
 
When the contactors open the car has no load on either motor anymore and both are free rolling, so at highway speeds this would give someone plenty of time to coast over to somewhere safer. It's not like the contactors open and the car comes to a dead stop...

And if you're driving up a steep incline? Or you are merging into traffic? Or you are in heavy traffic and cannot move over due to cars in adjacent lanes? Or there is no shoulder, just a cliff straight into the pacific ocean? It's so easy to say that it's not a problem when you don't bother to think of a few of the million variables that could make it a big problem.

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Not any dumber than running out of gas, having a fuel pump fail, having an alternator fail, water pump fails, and any other hundreds of things that can go wrong and sometimes do go wrong. Heck, I've been stuck on the side of a major highway, at night, during a bad rain storm because my wiper motor decided to give up the ghost. EVs are going to have different possible reasons for breaking down than ICE cars. We'll all get used to it in time.

Why? This is a clear weakness that needs to be fixed. Just because it happens in an ICE... I hear that a lot around here. If that's the case, then why don't you drive an ICE? We hold Tesla and Model S up to a higher standard, that's why we bought these cars. We don't want the same issues as ICE cars. If that's what we wanted, we would have kept the cars we had before.

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It's probably not good to be one of the beta-testers for the 85D either. Next year's will probably be more reliable.

I am in total agreement. Anyone who is getting the P85D or the regular D is going to be helping Tesla work out the technical issues of its new drivetrain and new assembly line. After the first go-round with my car, I will wait at least 2 years after any new platform change before buying. It seems that Tesla is quick to ship products that it hasn't thoroughly tested, pushing resolution to those problems downstream to the owner. Service is great - it has to be - to make up for Tesla's initial quality. But it's still an inconvenience and nobody likes having a brand new car in service for basic things that should have been right in the beginning. Today's cars are still experiencing some of the same issues from 2 years ago, for instance the wind penetration at the A-pillar triangle glass. Water leaks in rear lift gate. Condensation in rear tail lights. Just three issues that have been reported in new deliveries and also have been ongoing issues for the last two years. Tesla says they water test every car. No they don't. If they did, people wouldn't get cars with leaking rear lift gates.
 
Why? This is a clear weakness that needs to be fixed. Just because it happens in an ICE... I hear that a lot around here. If that's the case, then why don't you drive an ICE? We hold Tesla and Model S up to a higher standard, that's why we bought these cars. We don't want the same issues as ICE cars. If that's what we wanted, we would have kept the cars we had before.

Just stop now. It's getting ridiculous. Stuff breaks, regardless of price. It happens. That's life. It's inconvenient, upsetting, fill in your word of choice, but we've all been there a time, or two, or twelve and life goes on. It's not like none of us didn't know Tesla was doing this all for the very first time. No other company has ever made a car remotely like the Model S. Feel free to hold them to a higher standard, they seem perfectly fine with that, but higher doesn't mean perfect. You want perfect transportation, put your shoes on and walk. And don't try and make it sound like this higher standard is the first or main reason people bought a Tesla. It may be why YOU bought it, but I'd imagine that generally early adopters of such new technology expect to experience bugs, malfunctions and outright breaks. That's just logical.

I do drive an ICE. It's going in for its second recall. I feel fortunate to have not been a victim of either of these mechanical issues.

Lastly, we don't have the same issues with EVs as we do ICEs. Breakdowns from what I've read about here seem to be quite different than they are for ICEs, with the exception of flat tires.
 
And if you're driving up a steep incline? Or you are merging into traffic? Or you are in heavy traffic and cannot move over due to cars in adjacent lanes? Or there is no shoulder, just a cliff straight into the pacific ocean? It's so easy to say that it's not a problem when you don't bother to think of a few of the million variables that could make it a big problem.

In all of those situations you still wouldn't just come to a stop instantly. In pretty much any case if you coast to a stop, you're not too terribly off.

I think this is a moot issue anyway. Any car can stall out or die unexpectedly at any time and be in any of the same situations you describe.
 
In all of those situations you still wouldn't just come to a stop instantly. In pretty much any case if you coast to a stop, you're not too terribly off.

I think this is a moot issue anyway. Any car can stall out or die unexpectedly at any time and be in any of the same situations you describe.

I still think it's funny how people piled on GM when their cars did exactly the same thing with their ignition key defect, but when a Tesla does it, we have people saying it's no big deal and can happen to any car.
 
Just stop now. It's getting ridiculous. Stuff breaks, regardless of price. It happens. That's life. It's inconvenient, upsetting, fill in your word of choice, but we've all been there a time, or two, or twelve and life goes on. It's not like none of us didn't know Tesla was doing this all for the very first time. No other company has ever made a car remotely like the Model S. Feel free to hold them to a higher standard, they seem perfectly fine with that, but higher doesn't mean perfect. You want perfect transportation, put your shoes on and walk. And don't try and make it sound like this higher standard is the first or main reason people bought a Tesla. It may be why YOU bought it, but I'd imagine that generally early adopters of such new technology expect to experience bugs, malfunctions and outright breaks. That's just logical.

I do drive an ICE. It's going in for its second recall. I feel fortunate to have not been a victim of either of these mechanical issues.

Lastly, we don't have the same issues with EVs as we do ICEs. Breakdowns from what I've read about here seem to be quite different than they are for ICEs, with the exception of flat tires.

Wow. Just wow. Who are you to pass judgment on what is important? This is an open discussion forum where we... prepare yourself... DISCUSS! Your attempts to bully me and others into not expressing our opinions about what we feel is a serious failure is not appreciated. I'm not going to stop, and neither should anyone else who feels that there is an issue that needs to be resolved. If you don't appreciate the topic and opinions being shared, you are free to change the channel. I'm not the one who started this thread, but I fully support the OP's wife in feeling the way she does.

Nobody is asking for perfection. Experiencing a major and complete failure of your brand new $120,000 car is not expecting perfection. It's expecting initial quality - something on which Tesla is rated by Consumer Reports and others, and is an important factor and consideration for customers. I cut Tesla a lot of slack, but none in issues like this where the same problem has happened several times in this forum and probably a lot more in real world (the minority post here, the majority of owners don't post online about their cars). So perhaps you should acknowledge the concerns of others and where Tesla should improve its weaknesses rather than berate those who are throwing light on a safety issue.

You want to single me out and try to put me down for advocating for the customer and saying that Tesla needs to do better? Go right ahead.

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I still think it's funny how people piled on GM when their cars did exactly the same thing with their ignition key defect, but when a Tesla does it, we have people saying it's no big deal and can happen to any car.

Agreed.
 
Wow. Just wow. Who are you to pass judgment on what is important? This is an open discussion forum where we... prepare yourself... DISCUSS! Your attempts to bully me and others into not expressing our opinions about what we feel is a serious failure is not appreciated. I'm not going to stop, and neither should anyone else who feels that there is an issue that needs to be resolved. If you don't appreciate the topic and opinions being shared, you are free to change the channel. I'm not the one who started this thread, but I fully support the OP's wife in feeling the way she does.

Nobody is asking for perfection. Experiencing a major and complete failure of your brand new $120,000 car is not expecting perfection. It's expecting initial quality - something on which Tesla is rated by Consumer Reports and others, and is an important factor and consideration for customers. I cut Tesla a lot of slack, but none in issues like this where the same problem has happened several times in this forum and probably a lot more in real world (the minority post here, the majority of owners don't post online about their cars). So perhaps you should acknowledge the concerns of others and where Tesla should improve its weaknesses rather than berate those who are throwing light on a safety issue.

You want to single me out and try to put me down for advocating for the customer and saying that Tesla needs to do better? Go right ahead.

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Agreed.

Agree with you Amped. If you love Tesla, as I do, you should make a big deal about this. I hope their engineers see this. If this kind of thing happens with the model 3 they are in deep doo doo. We are getting to the point where Tesla is no longer an "experimental" thing -- it is becoming mainstream and if they eventually want to compete with the big boys (BMW, Audi) this kind of event can't happen.
 
I still think it's funny how people piled on GM when their cars did exactly the same thing with their ignition key defect, but when a Tesla does it, we have people saying it's no big deal and can happen to any car.

This is nothing like the GM issue. The issue with GM is that air bags and other safety devices were disabled when the ignition problem occurred... this is not the case in the event the HV contactor on the Model S opens...