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Destiny1701
22’ M3LR ‘DrkNite’/ 22’ MYP BliueRocket
As a long time Porsche owner and enthusiast I can assure you that the Panamera is considered the ugly stepchild of the family
As compared to most Porsches I'm sure it may be lol. The new design however is visually more appealing. Would have thought the Cayenne would have been an eye sore actually with its stock 18" basic rims. Don't get me wrong, I had a soccer dad come up to our Tesla yest eve was just giddy looking at the centre screen in awe
15 months into ownership and still people let us know how amazing it looks. I agree...Our blue baby is downright stunning
Destiny1701
22’ M3LR ‘DrkNite’/ 22’ MYP BliueRocket
I test drove one. It looks gorgeous and everything feels superb. The new (2018) Panamera has very few physical buttons. Everything is embedded in glossy surfaces with haptic feedback. And you can order a steering wheel with no buttons.
Wow. Nice. As mentioned, at the price range it charges, Tesla will need to ensure it stays at the forefront of not only exterior design but interior as well. As much as the EV market has accerated in recent years (mostly due to the expansion of Tesla) it is still in its infancy with millions of people globally still unconvinced that the EV can outperform, outclass, out design and out luxury comparable ICE cars. Musk knew that to break into the traditional auto market he would have to create something revolutionary. He succeeded.
However ice manufacturers will be nipping at the heels and soon enough start adopting more and more EV drivetrains alongside decades and in some cases a century of R&D knowledge and experience to ensure their designs, software and functionality keep up. Seems funny to actually think of the model S/X interior as 'outdated' for the most advanced vehicle on the planet. Lol.
Tesla is a phenomenal machine that none can currently match. However being an owner of luxury cars for 2 decades prior...I can safely confirm the fit and finish is not up to even a Toyota. We also own a hybrid Toyota Highlander limited edition and it's astounding how much better 'crafted' the SUV is in terms of seals, wipers, lack of noises, creaks, whisper quiet road noise etc. We end up driving both vehicles so can compare a modern Tesla to a traditional car almost daily.
It's been 5 yrs since a major interior refresh. In that time, many competitor auto companies (Volvo, Porsche...even Toyota ie. 2018 Camry) have upped their interior designs and software to modern standards. I'm sure Tesla is planning something and when it comes, should be quite a positive
I doubt that will happen, but agree that it is possible. However, given that so many people are perfectly fine buying RWD vehicles, it wouldn't make sense to me for Tesla to increase the price of an already very expensive car by forcing everyone who wants one to pay more for Dual Motors.
I remain a bit surprised that Tesla dropped the RWD X as a choice. I don't see how that helped sales. I think it was done to simply the manufacturing process for a vehicle that Tesla was finding very difficult to manufacture in high volumes and at high quality. I think Tesla dropped coil springs on the X for the same reason.
I don't expect there to be a Model S "refresh" this year. As others have pointed out, there are ongoing incremental changes. There was a significant exterior visual change just a year ago, which I think was primarily to make the S look like the X front end, so the S didn't look dated.
EXOTIC1
Member
As a long time Porsche owner and enthusiast I can assure you that the Panamera is considered the ugly stepchild of the family
however the panny turbo is such a better car overall than the 911
IMO i've had both turbo 911 and panny
Tesla has had a long term contract to buy 18650 cells from Panasonic Japan that won't be fulfilled until 2019 or so given current production volumes. Tesla can renegotiate the contract, but all 2170 production needs to be dedicated towards Model 3 and stationary storage for now. Once the GigaFactory is capable of producing more batteries than necessary for those needs will they switch for the Model S and X. That will be a while.
The exterior of the Model S is a classic design that is not out of date compared of other large sedans out there. At some point they may redesign the roofline to give a little better headroom, especially in the back, but that won't be right away. All the engineering resources for that are dedicated to higher priority projects right now. With any exterior redesign, they need to be careful to maintain the aerodynamic profile. The Model S is one of the most aerodynamic cars on the road and it should stay that way.
I believe the battery pack options will change before the Model 3 introduction, but not in the way the OP thinks. The large pack will remain the 100 KWH pack for at least a year, probably closer to 2, but the smaller pack is going to become the new 85 or 90. It will actually be around 88 KWH if my calculations are correct. That's what you get with 14X of the same module used in the 100 KWH pack. Tesla wants to only use one module for the Model S and X line which is what they had with the 75 and 90, the only difference was one was 14 modules and the other 16. Making a new 85 or 90 with a small pack would not only be good advertising, but it would also be economizing at the factory.
The interior will probably get a bit of a refresh in the next year or two, but it will probably be after the Model 3 goes on sale. There will be some people who will decide to buy a Model S instead of a Model 3 after the production version is revealed because the Model 3 won't be what they thought it would be, and there will be people so far back in the Model 3 queue they will opt for a Model S instead. (Among those who can afford the bump in price.)
Tesla might also do a price reduction on the Model S that will entice people on the fence. The car has a massive profit margin now. It's needed to fuel all their future projects, but they could cut the price and still make a tidy profit.
I don't expect any major interior changes and the possible roof-line change until the Model 3 is out there and is getting produced in large numbers. Most of their manufacturing engineers are needed to get the Model 3 lines going and they don't have the resources to spare for retooling the Model S line right now. There will likely be some tweaks this year though. The battery change from 75->85 is most likely IMO. Other changes might include the addition of a HUD so it can be tested out in the field before getting incorporated into the Model 3 as an option.
There may be some electronics improvements here and there, but again, nothing dramatic. I strongly doubt there will be any major changes to the AP hardware until the software with the existing hardware is working as well as AP1 or better.
The exterior of the Model S is a classic design that is not out of date compared of other large sedans out there. At some point they may redesign the roofline to give a little better headroom, especially in the back, but that won't be right away. All the engineering resources for that are dedicated to higher priority projects right now. With any exterior redesign, they need to be careful to maintain the aerodynamic profile. The Model S is one of the most aerodynamic cars on the road and it should stay that way.
I believe the battery pack options will change before the Model 3 introduction, but not in the way the OP thinks. The large pack will remain the 100 KWH pack for at least a year, probably closer to 2, but the smaller pack is going to become the new 85 or 90. It will actually be around 88 KWH if my calculations are correct. That's what you get with 14X of the same module used in the 100 KWH pack. Tesla wants to only use one module for the Model S and X line which is what they had with the 75 and 90, the only difference was one was 14 modules and the other 16. Making a new 85 or 90 with a small pack would not only be good advertising, but it would also be economizing at the factory.
The interior will probably get a bit of a refresh in the next year or two, but it will probably be after the Model 3 goes on sale. There will be some people who will decide to buy a Model S instead of a Model 3 after the production version is revealed because the Model 3 won't be what they thought it would be, and there will be people so far back in the Model 3 queue they will opt for a Model S instead. (Among those who can afford the bump in price.)
Tesla might also do a price reduction on the Model S that will entice people on the fence. The car has a massive profit margin now. It's needed to fuel all their future projects, but they could cut the price and still make a tidy profit.
I don't expect any major interior changes and the possible roof-line change until the Model 3 is out there and is getting produced in large numbers. Most of their manufacturing engineers are needed to get the Model 3 lines going and they don't have the resources to spare for retooling the Model S line right now. There will likely be some tweaks this year though. The battery change from 75->85 is most likely IMO. Other changes might include the addition of a HUD so it can be tested out in the field before getting incorporated into the Model 3 as an option.
There may be some electronics improvements here and there, but again, nothing dramatic. I strongly doubt there will be any major changes to the AP hardware until the software with the existing hardware is working as well as AP1 or better.
eye.surgeon
Active Member
The driving dynamics of RWD vs AWD are completely different. I prefer RWD as do many car enthusiasts who don't live in the snow. It's not about top speed which is a meaningless metric to me in the US where speed limits top out at 85. The RWD performance models are plenty fast, the extra speed of AWD to me is not worth the tradeoffs. They need to offer both.
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That's reasonable, but what I commented upon was your implication that RWD was a faster (or quicker) experience than AWD which is the opposite of the case -- at least for Tesla Model S/X.
I'm surprised by your phrasing. My recollection was that a FWD configuration for Model X never really began vs. being "dropped". Did they even do any design or testing on a FWD Model X, or just skip that R&D, etc. investment for X from the beginning?
It's kind of like saying you're surprised they "dropped" the quad motors Model X, when there's no evidence such a thing was ever even drawn on a whiteboard.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Until they build a fast charging network with banks of maintained fast chargers to compete with Tesla, Tesla won't be feeling any nipping at their heels, in my view. I just can't see that many people buying an EV that you can't take a reliable road trip with when Tesla offers one you can.
The "soon enough" is long overdue and still not one competitor has a concrete plan to build a fast charging network. They're good at press releases and hype but bad at actually pulling permits. We need more competition. Tesla is egging them on but none will take the bait. I think it's because they have too much invested in the ICE and service is where the dealers make their money so good luck with sales.
Here's hoping I'm proven wrong but with each day that passes, and new supercharger sites that open, they are falling further behind Tesla's heels.
eye.surgeon
Active Member
I've yet to see any real-world evidence that this is the case. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the opposite is true.
Maybe my memory is faulty but I thought that for the first few months in 2015 that the X configurator page was online, and for a short period after production began, that the X could be ordered with RWD (single motor). Maybe none were actually built that way?
And I assume you mean "My recollection was that a RWD configuration for Model X never really began vs. being "dropped". Looks like you had Falcon Wings on the brain while typing.
Sorry, brain fart. I meant RWD not FWD.Maybe my memory is faulty but I thought that for the first few months in 2015 that the X configurator page was online, and for a short period after production began, that the X could be ordered with RWD (single motor). Maybe none were actually built that way?
And I assume you mean "My recollection was that a RWD configuration for Model X never really began vs. being "dropped". Looks like you had Falcon Wings on the brain while typing.
And, yes, my recollection was that they declared "AWD only for X" well before configurator, before even the first founder and sig Xs.
Random example from the 'tubes from Feb 2014:
Tesla Model X Is AWD Only, Model S Gets The Option - Gas 2
My recollection was that they never really intended to offer a non-AWD flavor but just hadn't gone public yet -- perhaps w/r/t not tipping off the Model S AWD introduction "too early". But that article suggests otherwise.
Anyway, interesting walk down memory lane.
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FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
The EPA rated tests show a increase in range for all of the dual motor cars.
Tesla has developed software that allows one motor to sleep at highway cruising speed to optimize range.
Dual Motor Model S and Autopilot
arubinst
Member
So, when looking at the source code of the My Tesla page for Model 3 reservations (they seem to be working on the configurator), one can read this very interesting hidden phrase that certainly comes from a copy/paste from the sources of the Model S configurator:
Is this something you MS owners have seen in the past? Could this be a some kind of confirmation that new features are coming soon?
Is this something you MS owners have seen in the past? Could this be a some kind of confirmation that new features are coming soon?
The D version allows regen on both axles and balances the load. I see no advantage to a quad motor car except possibly some advantage in traction when maneuvering or in bad road conditions. I would expect energy economy to drop with quad drive. It would add a fair bit of weight and complexity to the drivetrain and add nothing that helps energy economy going from one to two axle drive.
There may be some quad drive electric sports cars at some point, but don't expect it on regular cars. It would be like putting the world's best sports car suspension in a Camry, sports car people would want the Camry and Camry buyers wouldn't want to pay the extra for something that they would essentially never use.
All the testing done by regulatory agencies have shown the dual drive Teslas do get better range than RWD. Along the same lines when the 85D came out, it wasn't long until the hypermiling record fell to an 85D. The rated range of my 90D is 298 miles (according to the car's estimate) and I regularly get within a few miles of that in mixed town and local freeway driving. I didn't see quite that range driving down to California, but I went over a number of mountains and drove 75+ MPH most of the time.
You may prefer the "classic" RWD and that's fine. It does have a larger frunk. I never even think of using my frunk because it's a glorified glove box (the last time I opened it was to take my avatar picture). In most performance metrics the dual motor cars are better: in acceleration, energy consumption, and bad weather performance.
If the RWD was all that I could get, I would be OK with it, but I do love the dual motors. I don't need ~4s 0-60. I was fine with 7s 0-60 in my old Buick. It is fun though. I don't know how a RWD Model S would handle mountain roads, but my dual motor is the best mountain road car I have ever driven. I had a chance last fall to drive a section of road I drove many times in college. Back then I had an Impala with police suspension that wasn't bad on that road, but the Model S was at least a magnitude better on the same road.
It is true. The P models have less range, primarily because of the larger rear motors. The D's are optimized fro economy , so have better range than. the RWD models, primarily by the optimization permitted with dual motor
s. ICE people do not usually understand because they are accustomed to lots of drivetrain mass and friction, making ICE FWD always bess efficient than two wd.
^^ this. I would NOT want to be buying a Model S/X right now. If I were, I would hold off until next year. Too many changes coming that will make you upset if you buy now. Many others must be thinking the same thing, hence Musk and Tesla trying so hard to shift Model 3 reservations to Model S/X orders. They wouldn't be doing that if they weren't seeing a falloff in orders.
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