Touring US with camper trailer and FUSC -- Bad Idea or Really Bad Idea?

[Doggydogworld]

So I want to explore the US for a couple years with a small or mid-size trailer. I planned to buy a used Toyota pickup because "EVs suck for towing", but I'm intrigued by the idea of a Model S with free Supercharging. I'll add solar to the camper and it'd be fun to play around with projects like trickle charging the car from solar, using the car as a backup battery during cloudy stretches, etc.

- I know towing range sucks, but I'll only go 100-200 miles in a day and I'm not on a schedule
- I know even 2 kW of solar only adds ~10 miles of towing range on a sunny day
- I know Tesla doesn't recommend towing with Model S, but people install Ecohitch and do it

My question is reliability. I don't expect Toyota reliability, but I plan to visit some remote areas. Used FUSC cars are mostly out of warranty or soon will be, plus they'd probably void it for towing anyway. I'll have tools and I'll have an e-bike to get around. Getting stuck a week waiting on parts is no big deal. Getting stuck three months, on the other hand......

I'm guessing there's a 95% chance things will be fine over three years and 15-20k miles vs. a 5% chance of major failure, e.g. battery, drive unit, suspension. I can live with those odds. Am I a hopeless optimist? If it's more like 50/50 then I'll go back to looking at used Tundra ads Would love to hear from anyone who has real world experience with 2013-17 Model S. Thanks!

 

[EVRider-FL]

Have you considered a Model X instead? It has more towing capacity than the S.

 

[ewoodrick]

Don't worry about the free Supercharging. It's not going to be that much anyway, especially compared to the cost of the others campers fuel in the campground.

The bigger question is the "explorer the US for a couple of years" Please, no matter what you do, don't attempt this without owning a camper for at least a full season.

And when you talk about solar, it sounds as if you are doing that romantic "live off the countryside" thing. Which, if it isn't absolutely the style by you live today, just sucks. There's a lot to be said about power, food, showers, and other things.
If you aren't camping at primitive sites, then you will have power and water and sewage, amazingly important things.

Worrying about parts? That tells me that you haven't camped before. Most times it's the camper that needs the parts and months is not uncommon.

The size of the camper is important.

I've pulled a boat with my Model Y from Georgia to Florida and back a few times. It's about a 500 mile trip. And because of the boat profile, my range is terrible, but it's a relatively easy do in a day.

EVs have far fewer parts than other vehicles. They also don't need these things like oil changes. 20k miles and 3 years? Odds of failure are probably more like 1% or lower.

 

[KalJoMoS]

See this post. @airborne spoon can give some answers.

 

[airborne spoon]

Yes you loose range while towing its about 40-60% depending on the terrain and the weather. Most of my charge stops i'll go to 60-85% and then drive down to 10-15%. I usually don't go over 63 but occasionally i'll hit 70mph i set ABRP to 65 mph with a usage of 600 wh/mi and that is quite accurate for my trips. You could get something bigger than my trailer for a model S but i wouldn't recommend it. You'd prob want a X or a Y if you were gonna pull something bigger.

My rear drive unit went out while i was out in VA i was in DC for the day and the car wouldn't restart so i called the shop in VA nearby and spoke to them about my situation and i was gonna tow it but suddenly i hit the brake and it turned on so i was able to drive there. They gave me a loaner model 3 while they did the diag and the next day told me it was the motor and they could get a new one in 2 weeks for $8k or a reman for $5500 in 3 days so i obv went with the cheaper one and they let me hang onto the loaner even though my car is WELL outside the warranty period because my campground was like 1 hr from the shop. Once it was fixed i was back on the road and good to go this all happened around like 170 or 180k miles. So yeah if you happen to break down near a shop with cool folks you will be good to go. if not you might be on the struggle bus.

Any further towing questions id be happy to answer

As far as mods to the trailer we made a separate vid on just that you can see here. I added solar and a lifepo battery and it powers the trailer more than enough but its nothing to the car and isnt even a drop in the bucket so solar charging the car is a non starter.

 

[Doggydogworld]

i set ABRP to 65 mph with a usage of 600 wh/mi and that is quite accurate for my trips. You could get something bigger than my trailer for a model S but i wouldn't recommend it. You'd prob want a X or a Y if you were gonna pull something bigger.

Great job customizing your Bushwacker! Especially the extra room. (Nice blue boxes, too I've thought about a 10HD, but would probably go bigger. Maybe an Aliner or a teardrop with a shower. I saw a nice Helio. I can see why Model X would be better for a bigger trailer, but why a Y? It has a shorter wheelbase than S, a slightly smaller battery and weighs less.

What are the main issues you see with S and a larger (but still not full-size) trailer? Stability? Structural or suspension failure?

I see very few used FUSC Xs and no Ys. I figure 8-10k miles a year at close to 1 kWh/mile due to higher drag than your 10HD. That's 3-4k a year in Supercharger fees. Might as well get the Tundra. I really do want to play around with solar charging and such, but not enough to put up with charging hassles and pay the same fuel cost.

My rear drive unit went out while i was out in VA i was in DC for the day

Yeah, this is my issue. $5500 isn't great, but 3 days is a walk in the park. As you say, a breakdown in someplace like Montana would be a different story.

I added solar and a lifepo battery and it powers the trailer more than enough but its nothing to the car and isnt even a drop in the bucket so solar charging the car is a non starter.

I was thinking something between your 200W and this guy's 4200W (!!):

Seriously, though, the solar charging would just be a side project, for fun. No delusions about driving across the country on sunshine.

 

[islandbayy]

So I want to explore the US for a couple years with a small or mid-size trailer. I planned to buy a used Toyota pickup because "EVs suck for towing", but I'm intrigued by the idea of a Model S with free Supercharging. I'll add solar to the camper and it'd be fun to play around with projects like trickle charging the car from solar, using the car as a backup battery during cloudy stretches, etc.

- I know towing range sucks, but I'll only go 100-200 miles in a day and I'm not on a schedule
- I know even 2 kW of solar only adds ~10 miles of towing range on a sunny day
- I know Tesla doesn't recommend towing with Model S, but people install Ecohitch and do it

My question is reliability. I don't expect Toyota reliability, but I plan to visit some remote areas. Used FUSC cars are mostly out of warranty or soon will be, plus they'd probably void it for towing anyway. I'll have tools and I'll have an e-bike to get around. Getting stuck a week waiting on parts is no big deal. Getting stuck three months, on the other hand......

I'm guessing there's a 95% chance things will be fine over three years and 15-20k miles vs. a 5% chance of major failure, e.g. battery, drive unit, suspension. I can live with those odds. Am I a hopeless optimist? If it's more like 50/50 then I'll go back to looking at used Tundra ads Would love to hear from anyone who has real world experience with 2013-17 Model S. Thanks!

I've taken my camper all over the country with my Model S and unlimited supercharging.
Caught myself the first time going cross country with it doing (Redacted Speed due to self incrimination) MPH through south dakota. Tows so well I forgot the trailer was back there.
Range will suck. Would NOT do it with anything smaller than a 90 kWh battery. Preferably a 100, which is hard to come by for a FUSC car.
Reliability, again, skip the smaller batteries, do NOT go with a single drive unit car, and preferably a small drive unit (non performance) dual motor for max reliability. I have a 90D 2016 Model S.

I also carried a generator, though never needed it, just in case. did sweat bullets a couple times weather or not I'd make it. DONT FORGET, you can always drop the trailer, go charge a bit, and go back bring the trailer to the supercharger.

I have not been able to do my camper road trips in a few years, it would be ASTRONOMICALLY easier now than when I did it last. I had to 98-100% charge every stop, and longest main stretch was from Milwaukee, WI to Chiloquin, Oregon. That was 2600 miles and I did it in under 2 days, in 2017 (the last LONG camper road trip).
I could likely shave 12 hrs or so off the same drive now, due to the number of supechargers in that route doubling. or basically, they filled in the gaps between superchargers, so I would no longer need a ~100% charge. Could stay in the fast charging band and just hit 80% quickly each stop.

 

[Doggydogworld]

I have a 90D 2016 Model S.

I'm mostly looking at 90D, though I've heard usable battery capacity isn't much more than the 85D. The few 100Ds I see don't have FUSC.
Thanks for the warning about RWD and P versions, confirms what I've heard elsewhere about seal problems with the large drive units.

DONT FORGET, you can always drop the trailer, go charge a bit, and go back bring the trailer to the supercharger.

Good tip, I hadn't thought of that. I'll also have a generator, but ..... yeah that's truly a last resort.

That was 2600 miles and I did it in under 2 days, in 2017 (the last LONG camper road trip).

That's truly amazing. I won't attempt anything like that, and as you say today's SC network is vastly superior.

What trailer were you towing?

 

[islandbayy]

I'm mostly looking at 90D, though I've heard usable battery capacity isn't much more than the 85D. The few 100Ds I see don't have FUSC.
Thanks for the warning about RWD and P versions, confirms what I've heard elsewhere about seal problems with the large drive units.


Good tip, I hadn't thought of that. I'll also have a generator, but ..... yeah that's truly a last resort.


That's truly amazing. I won't attempt anything like that, and as you say today's SC network is vastly superior.

What trailer were you towing?

90 battery will be exponentially more reliable at this point than the 85. Faster charging as well.

I'll post some videos later. Generac makes a generator that can directly charge the car, without needing any jumper or hack plugs.
Similar teardrop to Airborne's

Locally though, I use my Model X to tow a 24ft cargo trailer. Range is about 50-70 miles with that one....

 

[livesmith]

90 battery will be exponentially more reliable at this point than the 85.

Probably true in general, but I thought I'd heard there were a few generations of the 90's and some had issues.
The 85 in my second half of 2015 battery is still going at 350k miles. I have about 65kwh capacity.

Does towing really get into the kwh/mile range?

 

[islandbayy]

Probably true in general, but I thought I'd heard there were a few generations of the 90's and some had issues.
The 85 in my second half of 2015 battery is still going at 350k miles. I have about 65kwh capacity.

Does towing really get into the kwh/mile range?

First Gen 90's had premature degradation. Mine falls under that. It dropped like a rock the first 2 years. It has now leveled off and held around 240 miles rated range for about 4-5 years now and holding solid. It's also charging faster now than when new and overall, appears rock solid.

Reliability issues with the 85's, many of the issues arise from physical pack design, BMS boards etc... as well as the nerfed supercharging speeds, and overall age now.

Also, anecdotal observations from me over the past 11 years of Tesla Ownership and dealing with so many Teslas, and now running the BMS battery failure group, the lower mileage (sub-100k), more babied batteries are the ones with the higher overall failure rates. The ones that are used and abused, seem to actually hold up much better and last longer, both mileage as well as overall age.

With my 24 ft cargo trailer, yes. With my Teardrop, at 75mph, I see about 600-700 wh/mile. If you really want to drop that number greatly, lower your speed dramatically. 55mph ideal. Draft a Semi, that alone can shave 100-200 wh/mile off your consumption.

Weight of the trailer isn't the issue, the issue is drag. My teardrop weighs ~800 Lbs. I can and have loaded over 2,000 Lbs of motorcycle parts in my Model S. Not recommended due to exceeding vehicle capacity, but job had to get done, no trailer available. 2,000 Lbs of motorcycle parts IN the car saw only 3% increase in power consumption on the freeway.

 

[blodg1]

A '15-'16 70D or 85D with free charging would be a good, low-cost, starter platform with comparatively bulletproof motors. Then install a 100kWh battery. Salvage 100D's can be had for $8-11k and your working 70 or 85 pack will still have resale value, so potential break even less labor.

 

[Doggydogworld]

First Gen 90's had premature degradation. Mine falls under that. It dropped like a rock the first 2 years. It has now leveled off and held around 240 miles rated range for about 4-5 years now and holding solid. It's also charging faster now than when new and overall, appears rock solid.

That explains what I remembered, probably from this Electrek article. Glad to hear it stabilized after the initial degradation.

Reliability issues with the 85's, many of the issues arise from physical pack design, BMS boards etc... as well as the nerfed supercharging speeds, and overall age now.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought 1st Gen 90 packs were just 85 packs with a new generation of higher density 18650s in them. Then later they came out with an improved pack design used for 2nd Gen 90s and all 100s. I don't recall where I got that idea, so my memory may be off. I know for a while they sold both 85s and 90s. I've seen ads for 2015 90s as well as 2016 85s.

Also, anecdotal observations from me over the past 11 years of Tesla Ownership and dealing with so many Teslas, and now running the BMS battery failure group, the lower mileage (sub-100k), more babied batteries are the ones with the higher overall failure rates. The ones that are used and abused, seem to actually hold up much better and last longer, both mileage as well as overall age.

Tesloop got 200k miles out of their early Model S and 300k+ miles out of a couple of 2016 (?) Model Xs despite Supercharging to 100% every night!

A '15-'16 70D or 85D with free charging would be a good, low-cost, starter platform with comparatively bulletproof motors. Then install a 100kWh battery. Salvage 100D's can be had for $8-11k and your working 70 or 85 pack will still have resale value, so potential break even less labor.

I like the way you think
I wasn't aware a 100 pack would even fit in a 2015-16 70D or 85D. Is there a thread for that kind of stuff?

 

[blodg1]

I like the way you think
I wasn't aware a 100 pack would even fit in a 2015-16 70D or 85D. Is there a thread for that kind of stuff?

100kWh pack fits in all 2012-2020 S & X. When installing into a pre-2016.5 car you need to replace the orange Rapid Mate top ring with the black low profile part available from Tesla Service for $4.80 (1041311-00-C). Just bolt it in and redeploy the firmware to realize the full capacity of the new pack. To change the model designation on the screens, you'll have to use the Toolbox software, but that's only a cosmetic change.

 

[islandbayy]

That explains what I remembered, probably from this Electrek article. Glad to hear it stabilized after the initial degradation.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought 1st Gen 90 packs were just 85 packs with a new generation of higher density 18650s in them. Then later they came out with an improved pack design used for 2nd Gen 90s and all 100s. I don't recall where I got that idea, so my memory may be off. I know for a while they sold both 85s and 90s. I've seen ads for 2015 90s as well as 2016 85s.


Tesloop got 200k miles out of their early Model S and 300k+ miles out of a couple of 2016 (?) Model Xs despite Supercharging to 100% every night!


I like the way you think
I wasn't aware a 100 pack would even fit in a 2015-16 70D or 85D. Is there a thread for that kind of stuff?

There were design changes with the 85 pack mid-late 2015 that addressed a number of the original design issues. Not too many 85's with that design though, first gen 90's & 75's benefitted from the change. Yes, original 90 packs had same number of cells with more dense chemistry. What you are thinking of with re-design later on in 2016 was mostly cooling. They redesigned the internals to improve cooling. This also gave more space inside the pack to fit enough cells to make a 100kWh battery. The current "New" 90's tesla has are currently 100 packs with 2 modules removed to make a "90". Benefit of this, is the new 90's are larger than the original (which really should have been sold as an 85, and original 85 should have been sold as an 80). Downside to the new 90's is that they are 350v VS 404v. Not really any big deal unless you are driving a performance model.

I supercharge exclusively. Age related issues didn't come into play with the Tesloop cars. I do remember a number of the packs getting replace eventually due to imbalance, as they never sat long enough for the packs to be able to balance out.

Yah, 100 packs will fit in any vehicle with replacement rapid mate connector. I'll be upgrading my MX75D to a 100 pack once warranty is out in December. Would like to do so with my Model S as well, but given the 90 pack is chugging along, I'll wait til failure unless an excellent deal comes across my desk.