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Model S Performance vs BMW M5
- Thread starter CapitalistOppressor
- Start date
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I thought you were talking about the normal M3. The M3 GTS is a stripped out race version with no rear seats, no sound system, lots of sound insulation missing and optional air conditioning. The tires are also R-compound track tires. If you stripped out the Model S and swapped in track tires it'll be faster too.
Yeah, they had a couple of Model S's like that at Laguna. I suspect their best laptimes were from those and not the "Early Production Cars"-- and even those I suspect may have been tuned up. Didn't see any cars with license plates on the track.
Those were Betas, not production models. I have no clue how stripped down they were but I also am not convinced that the 1:52-1:53ish times that they got came from being at the ragged edge of Model S capabilities. I'd look for times in the upper 1:40's if someone was skilled, motivated and configuring the car for speed.
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No worries about it being an old thread. MSP vs M5 is a current topic of conversation in other threads and should be moved here anyways. I also need to update the opening message to reflect reality now that we have better performance data for both MSP and 2013 M5. At the time I started the thread Edmunds hadn't track tested either, so it was mostly speculation.
Now we know that the 0-60 times for Model S are much closer to M5 than I suspected when I started the thread. At the time I wasn't even certain whether the quoted time for MSP was with rollout or not so I just cited the 3.7 that Car and Driver published. But now it's clear that MSP is 4.3 with no rollout and 4.0 with a 12" rollout. Car and Driver methodology includes an estimated rollout that doesn't correspond directly to a measured 12" but its close enough for our purposes. Without rollout the M5 has been measured at 4.3 with a manual transmission and 4.1 with the DCT using launch control. So when GeorgeB said in his blog post that MSP is on par with the best performers in its class he was absolutely right.
But handling, while very good, is apparently not as good as hoped and is likely slightly worse than M5. There is still some fuzziness on this though because we need an Inside Line test of M5 to know that the methodologies and conditions are the same. Plus, as stated in the test notes there are driving techniques you can use with an ICE vehicle that you can't with an electric which improve the skid pad results. Still though, modulating the engine to help you around turns is a real life technique used in races, so the skid pad results of MSP are applicable.
We need Car and Driver to do a track review for MSP before we can compare the rolling 5-60 numbers. M5 is pretty good at 4.6, but I still suspect that MSP will better that. Until they do it's still just speculation.
I would expect that the MSP will embarrass the M5 in a 5-60 test. That is a worst-case scenario for the M5 (or any ICE, especially turbos) versus electric power train. I just want to see some raw data under full load: (i) speed versus time, (ii) speed versus distance and (iii) acceleration versus speed chart (how fast is each accreting (Gs) under full load at given speed).
My premise/assumption is that, at full load, the M5 will always accelerate faster (more Gs) than the MSP, but the M5 takes some time to get to full load, whereas MSP can get there instantly. MSP will always get the jump, but M5 will always reel it in. The variable to determine the time/speed/distance point of overtaking will be the particular mode that the M5 driver has selected and the rolling speed at which each car "steps on it."
I have a TraqMate GPS logger and can easily capture this data.
The only one I looked at carefully was a black one with a James Bond 007 logo sticker on windshield. Interior totally stripped (or never present?). Had warning stickers say "warning, prototype. no stability control" Or something like that.
Agree that it will be interesting to see detailed tests on track with production cars.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
You may have seen the black car shown in this gallery. It was one of the early development prototypes without an interior.
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/tesla-model-s-development/#photo-3985343
I totally agree about the rolling acceleration advantage. The MSP advantage in rolling acceleration was really my initial premise for starting this thread. But it's still speculation and I'm getting impatient to see track data to back it up. I was surprised by the low skid pad results for MSP (though I think I understand it, and think it can very much be worked around in a real race) so at this point I just want to see the data.
But in terms of how quickly M5 would overtake MSP, you shouldn't sell MSP short. With no lag and instant torque you get a substantial (many tenths of a second) advantage over M5 until it spools up and starts producing more torque and higher acceleration g's (when in gear) than MSP. But it does NOT begin overtaking MSP at this point.
This is because MSP has an actual speed advantage and is pulling away from M5 continuously until M5 matches its absolute speed (which will take awhile since MSP is no slouch in absolute acceleration). Once M5 matches speeds it will still need to overhaul MSP, which by this time will have built up a substantial lead and will still be accelerating strong.
Based on the quarter mile times and trap speeds we know that M5 DCT can accomplish this from a standing start because of its better launch speeds. Essentially you are looking at 12.6 @ 108mph vs 12.0 @ 120mph for M5 DCT in a quarter mile from launch. But under those conditions the MSP is actually slower getting up to speed (as shown by the better 0-60 times for M5 DCT), by anywhere from 0.3-0.4 seconds, yet is only slower by ~0.6 over the entire distance (remember, M5 spends substantially more time at faster speeds throughout the run, yet only manages an extra couple of ticks across a quarter mile).
Probably this means that MSP actually is pulling more average g's somewhere between 30 and 80mph even with the notional advantage that M5 has with the stronger engine. This makes sense because M5, even with DCT will be experiencing rapid upshifts between 30-80 mph which will lower its average thrust at those speeds.
I suspect that in a rolling scenario, M5 will actually fail to match the absolute speed of MSP until some time over 80mph, but at that point M5 gets into a high gear sweet spot where it doesn't need upshifts and can actually apply its huge torque advantage to the ground. I also think it would take a bit more than a quarter mile for M5 to run MSP down and you'd end up with trap speeds of 112-115mph for MSP and 120+ mph for M5 DCT at the moment when M5 actually passes MSP.
In race terms this means that any straightaways that are longer than a third of a mile or so (and preferably less) are toxic for MSP in a road race with the M5 DCT because M5 will build substantial leads in those segments that will be virtually impossible to make up in the tighter portions.
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It's been widely reported that Tesla made substantial changes to both the suspension and drive system in the last couple of weeks before production began, to improve handing and acceleration. Both changes have been reported to have made a fairly substantial difference in improving performance. Indeed, there are rumblings that improvements were still being considered and possibly implemented during the Get Amped period.
It is not at all obvious to me that the Beta prototype cars that participated at Refuel 2012 would have included these changes. And the actual track data that Edmunds published in August is more consistent with a car that could do 1:40's at Laguna Seca.
Which immediately suggests that a new skill set will be gradually developed for the MSP, possibly negating some of that difference.
I suspect left-foot-brakers like that technique, but I've not found it to be necessary. You just need to be fast of foot. Once you've finished your braking you need to get your foot over to the accelerator and neutralize the regen. It takes a few laps to get the hang of it, but it quickly becomes automatic. You do the exact same thing on a gas car, by the way, but you don't have to be quite as fast or precise.
Not to wander off topic or anything...
This thread is funny... Here in Norway things are a bit different. M5 is a unthinkable expensive car to buy...
Model S is actually cheap to buy... With its starting price of $57k there is no other car with comparable horse power even near that price... Compared to a similar size sedan, starting prices is about $30k less for the Model S.
Starting price on a BMW 5 series with 184hk, manual transmission, cheap upholstery and no options at all is $84k plus registration.
I compare a Model S with a BMW M5 and $100k does not even pay off the taxes on a M5 in Norway... If I would want to buy a M5 I would have to pay $160k just in taxes... And that is before options, so to compare, I would get the Model S for free and pay $60k less in taxes.
Starting price on a BMW M5 is NOK 1 825 200,- thats almost $300 000,-
So a M5 is 3x Model S Signature Performance with all options. And thats before the real fun begins.
Fuel prices:
Gasoline NOK 15 pr. liter ($9,30 pr. Gallon)
85kwh NOK 50 ($8,20 full tank)
Tollroads:
Driving a small car (less than 3,5 tons) between 2 major cities is horrible expensive. Round NOK 1000 each way ($164).
Since all roads are tollroads... You have to pay. Here they make new roads and toll up all the old ones so that you have to pay the toll no matter what road you use...
Driving to work for me is 2 tolls. Total NOK 56 ($9.17)
Model S is electric and all toll roads, bridges and ferries are free to use for electric cars.
Bus/Taxi lanes:
We have bus/taxi lanes that all electric cars can drive in. Saves me 45minutes in the rush traffic.
Road Tax:
ICE car $472/year
Model S $65/year
Parking:
Parking is free (exept commercial actors)
Charging your electric car where the parking space has a charging spot is free.
Most charging stations are free
There is a network of charging stations all over the country.
Taxes:
No taxes when you buy it, no VAT either.
Emission free = no emission taxes.
If you drive it to work, you get double the amount pr KM in tax reduction. And if your company bought it for you, the income tax is 50% less than the tax on a ICE car.
In other words... Here in Norway you have to be stupid NOT to buy one
And the neighbors will say (WY DID HE GET IT BEFORE ME!!!).
Model S is actually cheap to buy... With its starting price of $57k there is no other car with comparable horse power even near that price... Compared to a similar size sedan, starting prices is about $30k less for the Model S.
Starting price on a BMW 5 series with 184hk, manual transmission, cheap upholstery and no options at all is $84k plus registration.
I compare a Model S with a BMW M5 and $100k does not even pay off the taxes on a M5 in Norway... If I would want to buy a M5 I would have to pay $160k just in taxes... And that is before options, so to compare, I would get the Model S for free and pay $60k less in taxes.
Starting price on a BMW M5 is NOK 1 825 200,- thats almost $300 000,-
So a M5 is 3x Model S Signature Performance with all options. And thats before the real fun begins.
Fuel prices:
Gasoline NOK 15 pr. liter ($9,30 pr. Gallon)
85kwh NOK 50 ($8,20 full tank)
Tollroads:
Driving a small car (less than 3,5 tons) between 2 major cities is horrible expensive. Round NOK 1000 each way ($164).
Since all roads are tollroads... You have to pay. Here they make new roads and toll up all the old ones so that you have to pay the toll no matter what road you use...
Driving to work for me is 2 tolls. Total NOK 56 ($9.17)
Model S is electric and all toll roads, bridges and ferries are free to use for electric cars.
Bus/Taxi lanes:
We have bus/taxi lanes that all electric cars can drive in. Saves me 45minutes in the rush traffic.
Road Tax:
ICE car $472/year
Model S $65/year
Parking:
Parking is free (exept commercial actors)
Charging your electric car where the parking space has a charging spot is free.
Most charging stations are free
There is a network of charging stations all over the country.
Taxes:
No taxes when you buy it, no VAT either.
Emission free = no emission taxes.
If you drive it to work, you get double the amount pr KM in tax reduction. And if your company bought it for you, the income tax is 50% less than the tax on a ICE car.
In other words... Here in Norway you have to be stupid NOT to buy one
And the neighbors will say (WY DID HE GET IT BEFORE ME!!!).
Norbert
TSLA will win
Johann Koeber
Happy Owner
One of my first vacation trips with the Model S will be to Norway!
Probably in Spring 2013 - I hope.
Probably in Spring 2013 - I hope.
Thanks for sharing. An interesting perspective. Sounds like your country is pretty enlightened about the global environmental risks posed by the continued pollution by greedy and unethical oil exporting countries. What? Really? Not Norway! Nevermind.
Just kidding. I was in Norway a few weeks ago. Gorgeous country (while the sun is shining). Model S does sound like a no-brainer for you. With your savings, maybe you can afford a few $20 beers (price of booze is almost enough to keep you sober!).
Mycroft
Life happens
$20 beers?!?! There goes any incentive whatsoever for emigrating to Norway. :scared:
$20 beer sounds like a tourist traps, the bars I use have high quailty beers in the $14-16 range. Which is a decent price here in Oslo.
Trying to get this slightly back on topic....
Our incentives are great and they are mostly in the form of disincentives for ICE cars that EVs are excempt from which means people feel like they are legally cheating the state out of a lot of money by buying EVs not that they get a handout. The EVs are the tax loopholes not the ones with incentives, which changes the retoric. Though price wise the MSP should be about equal pricing to the BMW 525 or so, so the question is not about accelleration but how the driving dynamics work out. As Cirion said they sell maybe 2% of the BMW 5-series are more expensive than the 535d, while the M5 is like 0,001% of the BMW 5-series market here.
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