Norbert
TSLA will win
Do better 0-60 times, compared to 5-60, come from revving the engine before letting the clutch go, and measuring time from when the clutch is released?
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Model S Performance vs BMW M5
- Thread starter CapitalistOppressor
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spatterso911
P100DL - Raven
It can, but very well timed SMG shifts (knowing the torque and HP curves) can duplicate the results provided you don't get any wheel spin on launch. I have never used the launch control on my M5 (lot of people used to say it had a specific number limit before risking your warranty), so I was sorta forced to learn things and after 6 years of driving the M5, I know the shift points very well. The HUD also has a logarithmic graph that signals when you have reached the shift sweet spot.
There have been numerous questions regarding how tests are performed, times calculated, etc. Here is a link to a nice story and video by Edmunds Inside Line regarding how they perform their tests. Most major reviewers, including Car and Driver, use similar procedures.
How We Test Cars and Trucks
A nice post about "rollout" controversy by RacerX
0-60 times - 6speedonline.com Forums
It's not a critical issue. Rollout accounts for variation amongst publications, but you still get a fair comparison as long as you look at comparisons done by that publication. If Car and Driver reports car A does 0-60 in 4.3 seconds, and car B does it in 4.5 using an 18" rollout, while Edmunds reports the same vehicles doing 4.5 and 4.7 with no rollout, that is an example of different procedures.
The bottom line is that car A is faster than car B, and both sources have standardized tests which form a basis of comparison with other tests by that publication. It would be invalid to look at the Car and Driver test for car A at 4.3 seconds 0-60 and the Edmunds test for car B which measured it at 4.7 0-60 and use that as evidence that the car A beats car B by 0.4 seconds on a 0-60 time.
In terms of how a rolling 5-60 test is performed, I believe that the standard is to accelerate the car to say 10mph (doesn't matter, as long as it is faster than the intended start speed), let your foot off the throttle and coast to the intended speed (5mph in this case), then punch it, with the acceleration measurements provided by your VBOX (or equivalent).
Trying to pop the clutch or anything else tricky like that would defeat the purpose of the test, which is to compare acceleration capabilities while already moving. These tests simulate passing performance, acceleration out of a turn or other characteristics of the car that come into play only when you are already moving.
How We Test Cars and Trucks
A nice post about "rollout" controversy by RacerX
0-60 times - 6speedonline.com Forums
It's not a critical issue. Rollout accounts for variation amongst publications, but you still get a fair comparison as long as you look at comparisons done by that publication. If Car and Driver reports car A does 0-60 in 4.3 seconds, and car B does it in 4.5 using an 18" rollout, while Edmunds reports the same vehicles doing 4.5 and 4.7 with no rollout, that is an example of different procedures.
The bottom line is that car A is faster than car B, and both sources have standardized tests which form a basis of comparison with other tests by that publication. It would be invalid to look at the Car and Driver test for car A at 4.3 seconds 0-60 and the Edmunds test for car B which measured it at 4.7 0-60 and use that as evidence that the car A beats car B by 0.4 seconds on a 0-60 time.
In terms of how a rolling 5-60 test is performed, I believe that the standard is to accelerate the car to say 10mph (doesn't matter, as long as it is faster than the intended start speed), let your foot off the throttle and coast to the intended speed (5mph in this case), then punch it, with the acceleration measurements provided by your VBOX (or equivalent).
Trying to pop the clutch or anything else tricky like that would defeat the purpose of the test, which is to compare acceleration capabilities while already moving. These tests simulate passing performance, acceleration out of a turn or other characteristics of the car that come into play only when you are already moving.
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strider
Active Member
Bottom line is that ALL 0-60 runs in a magazine involve launch control if the car offers it. That's the whole reason they also do the 5-60 test as this is more "real world" than the 0-60 number. If you pull up next to an M5 in your MSP at a stoplight, odds are they won't have enough time to push all the buttons, switches, and pedals required to activate launch control so you'll be racing against the 5-60 number and it will be very close. Otherwise you can just suggest they keep doing runs back to back and see who's car breaks first (the M5's clutch will give out long before the MSP will break).
Thats the absolute truth.
An interesting question that I don't know the answer to is whether MSP has a launch feature. It would be simple to create a staging/launch app for MSP. A password protected panel on the display to activate it and list interesting performance metrics (maybe a sexy backup girl holding an old school handkerchief up, dropping it on launch).
Once activated the brakes and throttle are slaved to the computer. Left toggle on the steering wheel can be used to incrementally stage the car forwards or backwards (its a rocker toggle isn't it?). Once staged you fully depress the gas pedal, which activates the launch system, provides optimal torque to the drive train (if any) while locking the brakes to hold the car. Toggle the right steering wheel toggle for launch on green
Yeah, most people don't realize how tough it is to get published times in performance cars especially at higher than sea level elevations.
strider
Active Member
smorgasbord
Active Member
Sorry to post on old thread, but I think the real (and only) performance advantage of Model S Perf over an F10 M5 is "responsiveness" under certain scenarios. From complete stop to modest speed (60mph) this would be most pronounced. Time to given speed is determined by the power delivered to the wheels (the "area under the curve" or "energy over time"). Since the TQ/HP of the M5 is higher at all times OTHER than the initial spin-up of the power train (it lacks the "instant full TQ" inherent in EVs), and since the car weighs less, under WOT, there will be a point (maybe 40mph-- a chart would show it) where the M5 begins to close the gap, pass the Model S, and never look back (up to 155MPH limited, ~195MPH unlimited).
In terms of "passing power," I would expect the "instant response" to be less of an advantage for the Model S, since the ICE drivetrain is already spun-up (just might need to drop a gear or four and wait for turbo spin up). Making up numbers, but instead of leading the M5 from my swag 0 to 40mph, perhaps the Model S would pull ahead from perhaps 50-65MPH before the M5 began reeling it in and passing it convincingly.
Since the M5's initial TQ is still not bad (versus the E60 which is terrible) and since most people will never drag raced anyone, I think for most people in highway driving situations, the M5 will feel faster (and be faster).
In contrast, I think this instant TQ should be a big advantage for very skilled track drivers going 10/10ths on tight tracks. Being able to instantly and precisely modulate TQ coming out of turns gives you a dozen or so situations IN EACH LAP to get a tiny edge over a less responsive car (especially a turbo charged one). I think lap times on road courses without long straight would be very close. I think the Model S would spank the M5 at auto cross, for example.
In terms of "passing power," I would expect the "instant response" to be less of an advantage for the Model S, since the ICE drivetrain is already spun-up (just might need to drop a gear or four and wait for turbo spin up). Making up numbers, but instead of leading the M5 from my swag 0 to 40mph, perhaps the Model S would pull ahead from perhaps 50-65MPH before the M5 began reeling it in and passing it convincingly.
Since the M5's initial TQ is still not bad (versus the E60 which is terrible) and since most people will never drag raced anyone, I think for most people in highway driving situations, the M5 will feel faster (and be faster).
In contrast, I think this instant TQ should be a big advantage for very skilled track drivers going 10/10ths on tight tracks. Being able to instantly and precisely modulate TQ coming out of turns gives you a dozen or so situations IN EACH LAP to get a tiny edge over a less responsive car (especially a turbo charged one). I think lap times on road courses without long straight would be very close. I think the Model S would spank the M5 at auto cross, for example.
mnx
2018 M3P
This is what excites me most about the Model S. Zero waiting for downshifts and zero turbo lag.
strider
Active Member
I respectfully disagree. You discount the time it takes to downshift and spin up the turbo. That takes several seconds which seem really long when you're trying to make a pass or scoot ahead of someone merging into traffic. The time it takes you to hit the throttle, computer to figure out what you want, downshift a few times, then pour the power on is significant. As soon as you drive a Tesla on public roads you will get it. I have coworkers who have 911's, M3's and M5's, E-class AMG's, etc and every one of them giggles when driving my car. There is just nothing like the truly instant response of a performance EV.
Yes, most people will never drag race anyone and that is exactly why the MSP will spank M5's in the real world. In order to get an M5 to do it's published time you have to use launch control. This involves pressing several buttons, switches, and levers and (most importantly), revving the snot out of the car and holding it until you launch. The ridiculous racket the car will make during this time makes you look like a 16 year old in Daddy's car so people will not do this w/ their M5 in the real world (also tends to attract law enforcement's gaze). So from a true standing start w/o launch control an MSP will beat an M5 and PLENTY of people like to have mini races off a stop light. Not crazy 100mph on public roads stuff but when the light changes you go for it until you're at the speed limit or slightly over. Pretty harmless fun.
I also think your track analogy is backwards. On a track you would keep an ICE a couple gears low all the time to keep it in the power band. A well-built ICE that is kept spinning in its power band can be VERY responsive. I believe the gap would narrow and due to higher top speed an M5 will beat an MSP at the track (talking road course here, not autocross). However, on public roads the car will be in the highest gear possible to give a nice ride and the best fuel economy. It's in the this scenario that the responsiveness is terrible in the ICE vs an EV.
contaygious
Active Member
Looking forward to spanking M5s. What about the M3? Do we have a fighting chance with it going 0-60 in 3.6?
I nearly rear-ended another car on the highway when I took the Roadster for the test drive before buying it because it's that much more responsive. What I'd done was treat it like a normal car -- floor it in anticipation of downshift and turbo spool delays while looking left to make sure the coast was really clear to pass, look back straight and OH #@)$* SWERVE LEFT because I was inches away from nailing the car in front of me.
*HUGE* difference. This performance aspect is incomparable.
*HUGE* difference. This performance aspect is incomparable.
FalconNinetyD
Active Member
The E92 has been tested anywhere from 3.9 to 4.4 seconds from what I remember. Where do you see 3.6 seconds?
0-60 is kinda silly. I had a GT-R that supposedly did 2.9 with launch control, but was much slower from a roll than other cars I've owned.
And I think you need to match the metric to the style of car. In actual use, I think freeway passing power is the metric that people will judge the M5 and Model S on, not 0-60.
On more thing: perception counts for a lot. The smooth power of an EV is awesome and unique, but I find the "accelerating acceleration" of a turbo car from a roll (I'm thinking about the 997 Turbo) to be very very thrilling as well-- irrespective of what the stopwatch reveals to be objective results.
In this rarified air it is silly to split hairs----- but still fun. In that regard we should definitely meet up for some scientific experiments in late October.
mnx
2018 M3P
Indeed! I think passing cars on secondary roads is where the fun is. Ie accelerating starting from 50mph (passing someone who's puttering along at the speed limit)... Cars like the M5 would likely be faster if you're already in the right gear but the Model S would spank pretty much everything else if you factor in the time it takes to downshift etc.
contaygious
Active Member
"2011 BMW M3 GTS 0-60 mph 3.6"
chrisn: You had a GTR? That's pretty sick. That would kill anything on the line basically. I think at lights is the most common place to compare cars. On the freeway it's pretty tough because one car often has a huge head start on you already. I have never encountered one of those honk 3 times and go freeway races, cars try to take me at lights all the time haha.
chrisn: You had a GTR? That's pretty sick. That would kill anything on the line basically. I think at lights is the most common place to compare cars. On the freeway it's pretty tough because one car often has a huge head start on you already. I have never encountered one of those honk 3 times and go freeway races, cars try to take me at lights all the time haha.
mnx
2018 M3P
That was a limited run of 150 cars, and none of them were for sale in the USA... Also it costs $145k!!!
BMW M3 Review: 2011 BMW M3 GTS Drive Car and Driver
BMW M3 Review: 2011 BMW M3 GTS Drive Car and Driver
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