Model S Performance vs BMW M5

[4sevens.com]

I did not see this observation in the thread but may have missed it (there is a lot of thread here).

The MS was the single strangest street car I have ever driven. ALL street cars I had driven to that point provide a "roll over the sidewall" feel under lateral load. This includes the many M5s I have owned and even more rarified hardware like the F458. The MS gave me a "roll through the sidewall" feel. The only time I have felt this is in a purpose built race car and normally only one with a purpose built engine where the crankshaft has been placed low in the sump and drop gears are used to raise the rotation to the transmission.

Once what my butt was telling me sunk in, I tried to mess with the car (to the extent I could with my Tesla minder) by abruptly lifting with mid corner lateral load. Like a purpose built race car, the MS did not lift and rotate but rather felt like it wanted to drift rotate. What a wonderful feeling to have in a 4600 lb gorilla of a car.

Like a kid at Christmas, I simply can not wait.

NICE! I can't wait to turn some laps in my S at atlanta motorsports park!

 

[eledille]

The MS gave me a "roll through the sidewall" feel.

Earlier in the thread I listed some of MSPs advantages relative to conventional cars and how they are either cancelled completely or are less important on the track (economy, noise etc), or can partially be compensated for (instant response, gearbox). I forgot the most important one, lower CG and better weight distribution. Thanks for pointing it out, this sounds extremely promising!

I think this is Tesla's "secret weapon", but is it enough to make up for M5s much higher power/weight? What do you think? Will be very interesting to see how they compare.

 

[lolachampcar]

I started a thread on another forum about battery replacement. I will not get into all the details here (boring) but my theory is that the per cell cost will stay stable while manufactures back fill with capacity. I concluded the cost of the battery will not fall. Another poster pointed out that fewer cells will provide the same capacity so price can fall. Made sense to me.

The point of the above is that Tesla has created a product where performance can INCREASE with age. Spit ball an 8% increase in capacity per year over four years. I'll use 35% as the four year componded number. Cells make up a good bit of the pack weight so let's use round numbers and say the pack drops by a little less than a third or 300lbs. Stomp on the gas when you have two 150 lb guests then punt them and do it again. There is a big difference. Dropping 300lbs of battery will increase straight line and cornering performance. I can not think of another car that has the potential to improve with age. NEAT.

 

[chrisn]

Dropping 300lbs of battery will increase straight line and cornering performance. I can not think of another car that has the potential to improve with age. NEAT.

Well, if you are talking about spending $$$ to improve performance, nothing beats turbo charged cars like the M5. Power is basically software-defined. Most turbo cars can be tuned to add 10% more power with software only. When performance parts become available, I expect at least 20% gains.

Trends and potential are interesting, but the hear and now (in stock form) is most interesting, no?

 

[vfx]

... I can not think of another car that has the potential to improve with age. NEAT.

The Tesla Roadster.

 

[derekt75]

I have never been in a production MSP, so can't comment directly, but my sense is that the "gadgetronics" of the M5 are better / more refined.

I have driven both a production MSP and an M5. I feel that Tesla is well behind in "gadgetronics", and this almost pushed me to buy the Audi S6.

To me, the M5 and S6 both felt like they had faster peak accleration. Frankly, the MSP's peak acceleration is underwhelming to me. I know I've seen the video clip where the M5 loses 2 out of 3 to the MSP. Did anyone else notice that the M5 was losing grip while the MSP was sticking? To my eyes, the M5 lost because it had too much power at low speed. None of the cars that I drove recently have slipped when I floored it going straight, so I'm not sure why the M5 did in that video.

When I first drove MSP, I couldn't believe how good its traction control was. It works well to accelerate about as quickly as it can given the conditions. Then I drove the M5 and S6, and I swear their traction control is better. I guess Audi has Quattro, but somehow the M5 can compete despite being RWD and having a gasoline engine. Even in the video where the M5 tires are slipping for the first couple seconds, it does a reasonable job keeping pace with the MSP whose tires are sticking.

As far as body roll goes on the cars, I didn't really feel it on any of the cars (I drove a Hyundai Genesis in my shopping, and this did have noticeable roll). MSP, M5, and S6 are all using air suspensions, right?

As far as shifting goes, I can't believe how fast M5 and S6 can shift. It's a fraction of a second, and it's got to be some 5 times faster than the Infiniti M56. And yet even at a few hundred milliseconds, the delay is there and it annoys me. When you stomp the "gas" pedal on the MSP, it just goes. I imagine that was a big part of why for me, the MSP was simply more fun to drive.

Because of that, I bought the MSP [or more specifically, agreed to buy one].

But if I wanted a car that would get me the best track times, I would think the M5 would be a better choice over the MSP.
I doubt chrisn is going to have to pay out on his dinner bet.

Incidentally, I occasionally continued to post on the AudiWorld forums after telling them that I chose the Tesla. Most were quite gracious. A few are mad at USA policy that has provided Tesla some advantages. On the whole, while I was choosing between cars, I would say TMC and AudiWorld treated me about equally. Each had a couple of vocal members that thought I was a complete idiot for considering something else, and a bunch of people that wanted to provide some equanimous input.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

I did not see this observation in the thread but may have missed it (there is a lot of thread here).

The MS was the single strangest street car I have ever driven. ALL street cars I had driven to that point provide a "roll over the sidewall" feel under lateral load. This includes the many M5s I have owned and even more rarified hardware like the F458. The MS gave me a "roll through the sidewall" feel. The only time I have felt this is in a purpose built race car and normally only one with a purpose built engine where the crankshaft has been placed low in the sump and drop gears are used to raise the rotation to the transmission.

Once what my butt was telling me sunk in, I tried to mess with the car (to the extent I could with my Tesla minder) by abruptly lifting with mid corner lateral load. Like a purpose built race car, the MS did not lift and rotate but rather felt like it wanted to drift rotate. What a wonderful feeling to have in a 4600 lb gorilla of a car.

Like a kid at Christmas, I simply can not wait.

YEESS ! +1 i couldn't explain it like you did. My first test drive had me swerving all over and just dumbfounded by the way the car goes 'around' the swerves

- - - Updated - - -

Well, if you are talking about spending $$$ to improve performance, nothing beats turbo charged cars like the M5. Power is basically software-defined. Most turbo cars can be tuned to add 10% more power with software only. When performance parts become available, I expect at least 20% gains.

Trends and potential are interesting, but the hear and now (in stock form) is most interesting, no?

And turboed engines will last 1 million miles?


disclaimer...M5's and S6's are pretty sweet and if I wanted to buy gas (or if it was 10 years ago) I would definitely want one

@ Derekt75 - Excellentchoice ;>

 

[Doug_G]

To me, the M5 and S6 both felt like they had faster peak accleration.

Very likely true. The thing that makes the Model S fast is that the acceleration "peak" is more of a plateau. It stays at the same acceleration level continuously, whereas ICE cars only have peak acceleration in a fairly narrow RPM range. So it only makes sense that to achieve the same 0-60 time the ICE would have periods of time with greater acceleration and periods of time with lesser acceleration.

 

[Herbys]

I'd love to see a tuner remove the speed limiter, add additional cooling for the PEM (if needed) and motor, and add a 2nd gear.

Why all that? Why not removing the ballasts that lie in place of the front and back battery packs (and replacing them with high-density polyurethane foam)? That should reduce the car's weight by perhaps 300Kg, giving an extra 20% of acceleration. That should bring the car to mid 3s 0-60, besting anything BMW has ever made for a road.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

I have driven both a production MSP and an M5. I feel that Tesla is well behind in "gadgetronics", and this almost pushed me to buy the Audi S6.

To me, the M5 and S6 both felt like they had faster peak accleration. Frankly, the MSP's peak acceleration is underwhelming to me. I know I've seen the video clip where the M5 loses 2 out of 3 to the MSP. Did anyone else notice that the M5 was losing grip while the MSP was sticking? To my eyes, the M5 lost because it had too much power at low speed. None of the cars that I drove recently have slipped when I floored it going straight, so I'm not sure why the M5 did in that video.

When I first drove MSP, I couldn't believe how good its traction control was. It works well to accelerate about as quickly as it can given the conditions. Then I drove the M5 and S6, and I swear their traction control is better. I guess Audi has Quattro, but somehow the M5 can compete despite being RWD and having a gasoline engine. Even in the video where the M5 tires are slipping for the first couple seconds, it does a reasonable job keeping pace with the MSP whose tires are sticking.

As far as body roll goes on the cars, I didn't really feel it on any of the cars (I drove a Hyundai Genesis in my shopping, and this did have noticeable roll). MSP, M5, and S6 are all using air suspensions, right?

As far as shifting goes, I can't believe how fast M5 and S6 can shift. It's a fraction of a second, and it's got to be some 5 times faster than the Infiniti M56. And yet even at a few hundred milliseconds, the delay is there and it annoys me. When you stomp the "gas" pedal on the MSP, it just goes. I imagine that was a big part of why for me, the MSP was simply more fun to drive.

Because of that, I bought the MSP [or more specifically, agreed to buy one].

But if I wanted a car that would get me the best track times, I would think the M5 would be a better choice over the MSP.
I doubt chrisn is going to have to pay out on his dinner bet.

Incidentally, I occasionally continued to post on the AudiWorld forums after telling them that I chose the Tesla. Most were quite gracious. A few are mad at USA policy that has provided Tesla some advantages. On the whole, while I was choosing between cars, I would say TMC and AudiWorld treated me about equally. Each had a couple of vocal members that thought I was a complete idiot for considering something else, and a bunch of people that wanted to provide some equanimous input.

They certainly do. If anything, as a general rule having really high peak acceleration is a disadvantage compared to a car that has a wider power band, but lower peak. In fact, the difference compared to the MSP is so profound that the ICE vehicles require hugely complicated transmissions to accomodate their extremely narrow power band.

The key metric is average torque delivered to the pavement across a range of speeds and times. MSP does very well despite having a much lower torque rating. The reason is, that the M5 spends relatively little time at its maximum torque value, while MSP is almost always at or near its maximum. If MSP is going to beat an M5 anywhere, it's going to be on a tight road course with multiple turns and short straightaways, because under those conditions an ICE vehicle will really struggle with keeping itself in the fat part of its powerband, while incurring a ton of mechanical delays that MSP just doesn't have.

 

[chrisn]

Although I agree with the conclusion about where the MSP has the best chances, I disagree abut why. The new M5' with its advanced turbo chargers and fancy dual cutch gear box, has very very flat TQ over a VERY broad range of engine and wheel speeds (accounting for gear box) and the penalty to shifting is very low under hard acceleration. The outgoing M5 better meets the description of narrow power band (with MUCH slower shifting). The upside for the older ICE car was that it was NA and had a high redline, and thus more responsive to throttle inputs when in the best part of the curve.

Clearly from a standing start, th MSP has a huge advantage in reponsiveness. But as soon as things get rolling/spinning in a performance driving situation when you are rarely totally off throttle, this advantage gets reduced quickly. At the limit, the MSP has no real advantage in a strait line between say 30mph and 190mph. The minimal time lost shifting gives the MSP little chance to make up for severe power deficit.

I would only bet on MSP in autocross.

The other unknown factor here is the ability of the MSP to reliably and repeatedly deliver peak low RPM performance over a range of SOC and after heat builds. Although true in theory that "all TQ is available from zero RPM," you are asking a LOT of the battery and electrics to feed the engine to deliver that TQ. Internal resistance builds quickly as battery goes from 100% soc until stabilizing at a higher level in the 90-80% range. Again, heat build up is another potential issue. So maybe I would bet on the MSP only on the first cold run in autocross with 100% SOC. in other situations, we prob need to wait for more data....

They certainly do. If anything, as a general rule having really high peak acceleration is a disadvantage compared to a car that has a wider power band, but lower peak. In fact, the difference compared to the MSP is so profound that the ICE vehicles require hugely complicated transmissions to accomodate their extremely narrow power band.

The key metric is average torque delivered to the pavement across a range of speeds and times. MSP does very well despite having a much lower torque rating. The reason is, that the M5 spends relatively little time at its maximum torque value, while MSP is almost always at or near its maximum. If MSP is going to beat an M5 anywhere, it's going to be on a tight road course with multiple turns and short straightaways, because under those conditions an ICE vehicle will really struggle with keeping itself in the fat part of its powerband, while incurring a ton of mechanical delays that MSP just doesn't have.

 

[Lloyd]

The M5 configures with Traction Controll off in the Launch Mode. Thus it takes a more skillful driver to feather the power to the road with the M5/6 and get maximum acceleration. Too much power and all you get is wheel spin. Too little and you are left in the dust!!

 

[chrisn]

The M5 configures with Traction Controll off in the Launch Mode. Thus it takes a more skillful driver to feather the power to the road with the M5/6 and get maximum acceleration. Too much power and all you get is wheel spin. Too little and you are left in the dust!!

Not exactly. Launch control requies you to press the button to turn off stability control, but it would be more accurate to think of launch control using stability control in "automatic mode" and not "off." The whole point is that it modulates the throttle and clutch to provide optimal 0-60 times (a silly test, but gotta do for magazine purposes) for a given surface. You can also adjust the initial RPMs for different surfaces (using trial and error).

You are correct that with stability control fully off when NOT using launch control, the M5 has enough power to break the tires loose even at freeway speeds. But they also provide a sport mode (MDM), which allows some wheel spin and even stepping out of the back end before the nannies save you. I drive in this mode all the time and have never felt out of control or unduly limited. On the track, however, you would need to turn off stability control in the M5 and MSP to extract maximum performance (and would run risk of slowing down with excessive when spin and/or drifting). Due to insufficient skill and gonadal development, I leave car in MDM mode and live with the occasional nanny intervention.